F1 European Grand Prix: Valencia 2008

BAR#10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Webber: It's not just the engine
> [www.autosport.com]


Holy crap - could he work any more cliches into his quotes??

"It is dead boring, but we do seriously need to go through a lot of things because we've been on the ropes since P1," Webber told autosport.com. "We got smashed in the race as well.

"I am sure we will dig our lot on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday but unfortunately the knock-out hits have already been served. Whatever way we skin the cat here, we didn't start well and we didn't finish well."

Although some of Red Bull Racing's deficit to Toro Rosso can be explained by their relative engines, other factors such as set-up and operational procedures have played a role in the recent form of the two teams.

"Well, it is not just the engine, no," said Webber. "This is a vicious industry, and when you get nailed you can get nailed pretty quick. We are in that situation; we have a bit of a hole in the boat at the moment.

"We are on the limit in qualifying to get through to Q3, and with a tenth we could have gone through, but we would still have got smashed in the race.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you can find some onboard footage that clearly
> supports your claim, I have no problem conceding
> that point. But as it stands, it is just words
> against words. That gets us nowhere.

[www.thisisgav.co.uk]

No swerving. He stayed on a constant line (though he didn't turn right when the gap in the pit-wall came closer, though if you watch it frame-by-frame, he was already a car-length ahead of Massa at that point as Massa had backed off at the blend line).

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are not being serious are you?!? Please tell
> me you are joking!!!
>
> The rule is "i) It is the responsibility of the
> competitor to release his car after a pit stop
> only when it is safe to do so." It is not possible
> for a team owner to release a car. The team owner
> is not a competitor either, only drivers are.
> There is no gap for interpretation.

Surely this rule applies to the guy(s) operating the release more than the driver. After all, the driver can't determine when it's safe to release the car, so how can he be responsible for it?

The dictionary describes competitor as "a person, team, company, etc., that competes". While it's obviously got nothing to do with the team owner personally (other than perhaps in organisation), you could argue that it is the responsibility of his team.

To remove interpretation you have provide exact criteria. Does the Sporting Regulations give those criteria? If not, then it's open to interpretation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 05:07PM by gav.

Maybe rbr need to look at their drivers as well

I know DC is going at the end of the year but he is not doing a good job this year I think Vettel should be moved now.

As for Webber, I still dont see what he really brings to a team there are better drivers out there.

There is no chapter on terminology in the Sporting Regulations, so we can @#$%& around with terms for as long as we like without getting any further.

I have never EVER seen a FIA sanctioned race where a driver made an unsafe pit exit end up with any other penalty than a drive-through... certainly never a fine!

I can only say, what I previously did, that the same situation happened the day before in GP2. They have the same rules, and they are regulated by the same people, and Chandook did an unsafe exit from the pits and got a drive-through. So if the interpretation of that rule means team, then Chandook got hosed. Either way you cut it, there is something wrong. The rules are not uniformly applied.

Don't get me wrong, I think Massa drove a great race, and it was his to win. I didn't mind him winning it at all... I just despise the hap-hazard way the rules are enforced. Sports require the rules to be equal for all.


gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No swerving. He stayed on a constant line (though
> he didn't turn right when the gap in the pit-wall
> came closer, though if you watch it
> frame-by-frame, he was already a car-length ahead
> of Massa at that point as Massa had backed off at
> the blend line).

Wrong... before the Ferrari pit stall he is to the right side of the track with at least one meters space to the left, if not more... at the exit, he is driving on the white left line with Massa on his right. He is completely against the wall... he had to move over. If you can't see this, I'll be happy to post screenshots.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 05:37PM by Morbid.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no chapter on terminology in the Sporting
> Regulations, so we can @#$%& around with terms for
> as long as we like without getting any further.

Section 3 of the Sporting Regulations states:

3 GENERAL CONDITIONS

3.1 It is the competitor's responsibility to ensure that all persons concerned by his entry observe all the requirements of the Regulations. If a competitor is unable to be present in person at the Event he must nominate his representative in writing. The person having charge of an entered car during any part of an Event is responsible jointly and severally with the competitor for ensuring that the requirements are observed.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never EVER seen a FIA sanctioned race where
> a driver made an unsafe pit exit end up with any
> other penalty than a drive-through... certainly
> never a fine!

What about those mentioned previously in this thread?

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't get me wrong, I think Massa drove a great
> race, and it was his to win. I didn't mind him
> winning it at all... I just despise the hap-hazard
> way the rules are enforced. Sports require the
> rules to be equal for all.

Aren't we all. It's why we're having this discussion. :D

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong... before the Ferrari pit stall he is to the
> right side of the track with at least one meters
> space to the left, if not more... at the exit, he
> is driving on the white left line with Massa on
> his right. He is completely against the wall... he
> had to move over. If you can't see this, I'll be
> happy to post screenshots.

No screenshots are necessary. I've seen all the videos. The only point he was close to the wall was when Massa was behind him, when the pit narrowed. Prior to that, he had an abundance of space. He never swerved at all, it was the pit-lane which got narrower, at which point Massa backed off. At the point he was on the white line Massa was 1 and a half car lengths back and which increased to more like 5 during the time he was on that line. At no point was Massa alongside him in from when the pit lane narrowed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 06:02PM by gav.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no chapter on terminology in the
> Sporting
> > Regulations, so we can @#$%& around with terms
> for
> > as long as we like without getting any further.
>
> Section 3 of the Sporting Regulations states:
>
> 3 GENERAL CONDITIONS
>
> 3.1 It is the competitor's responsibility to
> ensure that all persons concerned by his entry
> observe all the requirements of the Regulations.
> If a competitor is unable to be present in person
> at the Event he must nominate his representative
> in writing. The person having charge of an entered
> car during any part of an Event is responsible
> jointly and severally with the competitor for
> ensuring that the requirements are observed.

That is not a definition of terminology.

Also, try scrolling appendix 2 of the sporting regulations. There you will find the entry form for 2009. There is a space for "Full Company Name" (the team), there is a space for "Team Principal" (team manager), AND on page 2 there is a space for "National Competitor Licence" which refers to the license that is held by the driver.


> No screenshots are necessary. I've seen all the
> videos. The only point he was close to the wall
> was when Massa was behind him, when the pit
> narrowed. Prior to that, he had an abundance of
> space. He never swerved at all, it was the
> pit-lane which got narrower, at which point Massa
> backed off. At the point he was on the white line
> Massa was 1 and a half car lengths back and which
> increased to more like 5 during the time he was on
> that line. At no point was Massa alongside him in
> from when the pit lane narrowed.

That is just wrong... I'll upload screenshots and edit when done.

Edit:

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 06:32PM by Morbid.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is not a definition of terminology.

I never said it was... :\

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, try scrolling appendix 2 of the sporting
> regulations. There you will find the entry form
> for 2009. There is a space for "Full Company Name"
> (the team), there is a space for "Team Principal"
> (team manager), AND on page 2 there is a space for
> "National Competitor Licence" which refers to the
> license that is held by the driver.

It's not the driver. The driver details is listed beneath it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 06:23PM by gav.

Now this is just getting stupid... Of course it is not the driver... it is the licence held BY the driver, referred to as "National Competitor Licence".

But even IF I am wrong here, and let's for heavens sake entertain that thought, then we now have a system where, should a situation arise, where a driver can draw advantage from an unsafe exit, teams can launch them with impunity anyway, because every team can afford to pay 10.000€ in fines for a gained position.

Is that a future you want to defend for F1?? Or should it only apply to those drivers that are in the run for the Championship?? Or should it only be an advantage to the team that are reigning champions, who are thus in the front stall, where there is no danger of hitting another teams mechanics or equipment?

How tolerable a sporting and safety scenario is that?



gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have never EVER seen a FIA sanctioned race
> where
> > a driver made an unsafe pit exit end up with
> any
> > other penalty than a drive-through... certainly
> > never a fine!
>
> What about those mentioned previously in this
> thread?

The 2 races I can see in this thread are Canada and Germany. As far as I remember no penalties were handed out in these two races for an unsafe release from the pit stall. Penalties where handed out for other issues - ramming cars at the red light (Canada) - or does my memory fail me altogether here??? That is still covered in what I said. I must admit, I think they should have had penalties, but I don't remember if I was adamant on that back then. I made some comments on the Canada race, but none on the Germany race.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 07:02PM by Morbid.

Wouldn't then the said article stated "it's the responsibility of the national competitor responsibility to release his car. ..."?

edit:not necessarily, national probbably reffers to the license, overlooked it.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 06:55PM by BAR#10.

But you seem to be missing the point I stated above, Official f1 site reported Massa was reprimanded and also mentions a fine. The team is not mentioned.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

Just for clarity... Bar#10 posted while I was editing my post. Only the first line was present before.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now this is just getting stupid... Of course it is
> not the driver... it is the licence held BY the
> driver, referred to as "National Competitor
> Licence".
>
> But even IF I am wrong here, and let's for heavens
> sake entertain that thought, then we now have a
> system where, should a situation arise, where a
> driver can draw advantage from an unsafe exit,
> teams can launch them with impunity anyway,
> because every team can afford to pay 10.000€ in
> fines for a gained position.
>
> Is that a future you want to defend for F1?? Or
> should it only apply to those drivers that are in
> the run for the Championship?? Or should it only
> be an advantage to the team that are reigning
> champions, who are thus in the front stall, where
> there is no danger of hitting another teams
> mechanics or equipment?
>
> How tolerable a sporting and safety scenario is
> that?

That's changing gear a bit. I was discussing it from a legal viewpoint, morally it's a whole different story.

Like I posted on previous pages, this is a sport, where sometimes it feels like they make rules as they go along.
So to answer your questions, I want a fair sport, where everyone is treated equally.*stating the obvious*

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 07:10PM by BAR#10.

I had no knowledge of you posting while I edited, and I pointed it out myself, so you would not look foolish by my edit.... so really I don't give much for your comments about me changing gears. Furthermore, we should change gears...

The early reports I read, said Ferrari had been awarded the fine... That is definately NOT the case on the official site as you correctly state. I believe that the official site is has the correct information... thus, the question is NOW not if the team was wrongly awarded the fine. Hence the interpretation of the term "competitor" in the rules, is now irrelevant, since Massa - correctly - was handed the fine. I am pleased with that.

What remains of the debate is the question of whether or not Massa should have had a drive through or not. Legally they can fine him... it is within the rules... However, the consequences for the sport are still not promising. As I detailed above:

"we now have a system where, should a situation arise, where a driver can draw advantage from an unsafe exit, teams can launch them with impunity anyway, because every team can afford to pay 10.000€ in fines for a gained position.

Is that a future you want to defend for F1?? Or should it only apply to those drivers that are in the run for the Championship?? Or should it only be an advantage to the team that are reigning champions, who are thus in the front stall, where there is no danger of hitting another teams mechanics or equipment?

How tolerable a sporting and safety scenario is that?"

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 07:14PM by Morbid.

I see how confusion could arise. The changing gears comment was not due the fact you edited the post and had no knowledge of mine, I understood that, have no problem with it at all.

changing gear, i meant from the initial debate we had on cca page 11, where I understood you as to FIA somehow not only bending but crossing their own rules to now the moral debate. Granted your posts were even then a mix of both, but I was debating the legal question.

And I already answered your question, I want fair play and not preferential treatment for anyone (alright, blue flags are okay).

I, f.e. would have had no problem with DQ of two cars in Interlagos if they were breaking the rules even if it meant "screwing" Kimi out of title.

At the end so called screwjobs provide more more motive for the competitor and certainly story we wouldn't forget.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 07:21PM by BAR#10.

Okay... it seems I was too fast on the trigger with the gearing comment... my bad.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

No probs.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edit:
>
> [www.sitecenter.dk]
> ppe/before.jpg
>
> [www.sitecenter.dk]
> ppe/after.jpg

This is that same point on the onboard video
.

Frame by frame the gap only lengthens. As you can see from your own screenshot, Sutil isn't on the white line as you'd said. He only touches the white line 10-15 metres further down the road.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now this is just getting stupid... Of course it is
> not the driver... it is the licence held BY the
> driver, referred to as "National Competitor
> Licence".

The sub-heading is "Constructor's details of entry". There is the space for "National Competitor License Number" and then further down there are both of the spaces for the "Licence Numbers" of the drivers. I don't know what a National Competitor License Number is, but I can't see anything that suggests it's got anything to do with a driver. If it does concern the drivers, then it renders part ii of that section worthless.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But even IF I am wrong here, and let's for heavens
> sake entertain that thought, then we now have a
> system where, should a situation arise, where a
> driver can draw advantage from an unsafe exit,
> teams can launch them with impunity anyway,
> because every team can afford to pay 10.000€ in
> fines for a gained position.
>
> Is that a future you want to defend for F1?? Or
> should it only apply to those drivers that are in
> the run for the Championship?? Or should it only
> be an advantage to the team that are reigning
> champions, who are thus in the front stall, where
> there is no danger of hitting another teams
> mechanics or equipment?
>
> How tolerable a sporting and safety scenario is
> that?

It isn't tolerable at all. I'm questioning why Massa should be penalised when Massa had little to no control over the situation. The fact remains that Massa is the only driver to be penalised at all for an unsafe exit to his pitbox this year (that I can remember), whereas other drivers and teams have escaped any punishment.

I completely agree that drivers and/or teams should be penalised for anything unsafe or that go against the regulations. Regardless of who is in which position, or when it is in the season.

If you feel it unfair that Ferrari get a straighter exit from their box (and while it's an advantage, I feel it's one they should be afforded given their title as reigning champions), then you also ought to feel that the first team in pitlane ought not to have a straighter run to their box? And surely the only way to be fair would be for every team to have a painted area of track that they're not allowed to stray outside of into and out of their pitbox? It's much easier (and far more sensible) to simply allow cars to use the space they have in my opinion. It's been this way in most forms of motorsport for as long as I can remember, though probably with an exception or 2 at various tracks along the way.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 2 races I can see in this thread are Canada
> and Germany. As far as I remember no penalties
> were handed out in these two races for an unsafe
> release from the pit stall. Penalties where handed
> out for other issues - ramming cars at the red
> light (Canada) - or does my memory fail me
> altogether here??? That is still covered in what I
> said. I must admit, I think they should have had
> penalties, but I don't remember if I was adamant
> on that back then. I made some comments on the
> Canada race, but none on the Germany race.

Ah yes, I see what you meant by the original comment. Sorry, I completely misread that.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Edit:
> >
> >
> [www.sitecenter.dk]
>
> > ppe/before.jpg
> >
> >
> [www.sitecenter.dk]
>
> > ppe/after.jpg
>
> This is that same point on the onboard video
> [www.thisisgav.co.uk].
>
> Frame by frame the gap only lengthens. As you can
> see from your own screenshot, Sutil isn't on the
> white line as you'd said. He only touches the
> white line 10-15 metres further down the road.

No it is not the same frame. In your picture, Sutil is out of the shadow. In my picture, he has just entered it. As I pointed out in the screenshot "in the next second Massa brakes"... which has already commenced doing in your shot. Also, you can clearly see from my shot, from the line drawn by the shadow of the banner on the rear wheels, that they are indeed, side by side.

> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now this is just getting stupid... Of course it
> is
> > not the driver... it is the licence held BY the
> > driver, referred to as "National Competitor
> > Licence".
>
> The sub-heading is "Constructor's details of
> entry". There is the space for "National
> Competitor License Number" and then further down
> there are both of the spaces for the "Licence
> Numbers" of the drivers. I don't know what a
> National Competitor License Number is, but I can't
> see anything that suggests it's got anything to do
> with a driver. If it does concern the drivers,
> then it renders part ii of that section
> worthless.

Rendered irrelevant by new information. See above posts.


> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But even IF I am wrong here, and let's for
> heavens
> > sake entertain that thought, then we now have a
> > system where, should a situation arise, where a
> > driver can draw advantage from an unsafe exit,
> > teams can launch them with impunity anyway,
> > because every team can afford to pay 10.000€
> in
> > fines for a gained position.
> >
> > Is that a future you want to defend for F1?? Or
> > should it only apply to those drivers that are
> in
> > the run for the Championship?? Or should it
> only
> > be an advantage to the team that are reigning
> > champions, who are thus in the front stall,
> where
> > there is no danger of hitting another teams
> > mechanics or equipment?
> >
> > How tolerable a sporting and safety scenario is
> > that?
>
> It isn't tolerable at all. I'm questioning why
> Massa should be penalised when Massa had little to
> no control over the situation. The fact remains
> that Massa is the only driver to be penalised at
> all for an unsafe exit to his pitbox this year
> (that I can remember), whereas other drivers and
> teams have escaped any punishment.

I agree... Massa cannot see the oncoming car in his mirrors. He cannot hear it either. He is completely dependent on the mechanic operating the lights above, and he fell a sleep at the switch. Regardless, the penalty should still befall his car, as it seems it actually did (see above posts). Other teams have escaped punishment... IMHO they shouldn't have. When I came home from Hockenheim and watched the rerun on TV, I could not fathom that there was no punishments for the Alonso/Vettel incident. You could argue if you wish that Kimi had to retire, and that is punishment enough as it is... I could be inclined to go that way... it is standard too on track when drivers make serious errors.

> I completely agree that drivers and/or teams
> should be penalised for anything unsafe or that go
> against the regulations. Regardless of who is in
> which position, or when it is in the season.

Good.

> If you feel it unfair that Ferrari get a
> straighter exit from their box (and while it's an
> advantage, I feel it's one they should be afforded
> given their title as reigning champions), then you
> also ought to feel that the first team in pitlane
> ought not to have a straighter run to their box?
> And surely the only way to be fair would be for
> every team to have a painted area of track that
> they're not allowed to stray outside of into and
> out of their pitbox? It's much easier (and far
> more sensible) to simply allow cars to use the
> space they have in my opinion. It's been this way
> in most forms of motorsport for as long as I can
> remember, though probably with an exception or 2
> at various tracks along the way.


I am not talking about an unfairer straighter exit from the pits... so I deem you deduced consequences of no importance. I am talking about being able to go side by side in the pits, when it is not allowed, but as it was mentioned in another post, it should be okay for Ferrari (the front team), since they have a clear run to the exit, and put no one in danger. The fast lane in the pit lane is a single lane stretch... You cannot go side by side, period.


> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The 2 races I can see in this thread are Canada
> > and Germany. As far as I remember no penalties
> > were handed out in these two races for an
> unsafe
> > release from the pit stall. Penalties where
> handed
> > out for other issues - ramming cars at the red
> > light (Canada) - or does my memory fail me
> > altogether here??? That is still covered in what
> I
> > said. I must admit, I think they should have
> had
> > penalties, but I don't remember if I was
> adamant
> > on that back then. I made some comments on the
> > Canada race, but none on the Germany race.
>
> Ah yes, I see what you meant by the original
> comment. Sorry, I completely misread that.

No problem.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Okay Gav, I found that feed on a video site... you grossly misrepresented what happened by choosing that frame... the entire time in the shadow they are side by side exactly as they where down the rest of the pit lane... you just chose the shot where Massa already started braking... I expected better. There is no way you did that in good faith. For shame!!!!

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rendered irrelevant by new information. See above
> posts.

Which it shouldn't be, as I said in my first post, and why it can still be open to interpretation for the course officials.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not talking about an unfairer straighter exit
> from the pits... so I deem you deduced
> consequences of no importance. I am talking about
> being able to go side by side in the pits, when it
> is not allowed, but as it was mentioned in another
> post, it should be okay for Ferrari (the front
> team), since they have a clear run to the exit,
> and put no one in danger. The fast lane in the pit
> lane is a single lane stretch... You cannot go
> side by side, period.

So if that's your argument, there isn't anywhere in the regulations which states that cars aren't allowed to be side-by-side in the fast lane, only that you cannot release a car into the pitlane unsafely, which once more leaves it open to interpretation, and thus where this whole inconsistency thing comes from.