F1 European Grand Prix: Valencia 2008

I know that I could be stabbed in town.... does that make everything okay if it happens?

The important thing to remember here the cars are still travelling at 80km/h, which is about (50mph). Now taking into account that F1 cars have awesomely powerful brakes and can stop from 8km/h in approximately 20 metres which takes well under a second.

Now taking into account that a tenth here or there in the pits can win or lose a race there is some grounds for driver error in the pitlane, but remember to be hit by a F1 car even at just 10km/h is going to bloody hurt!

And it's only going to take a very small error of judgement to make big speed difference.

Yes the mechanics know that it is dangerous and there is risk of injury to them, but does really offer any consolation if one of them ends up having his crown jewels violated because his driver mis-judges his braking into the pitbox?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 10:44AM by J i m.

J i m schreef:
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> I know that I could be stabbed in town.... does
> that make everything okay if it happens?
>
> The important thing to remember here the cars are
> still travelling at 80km/h, which is about
> (50mph). Now taking into account that F1 cars have
> awesomely powerful brakes and can stop from 8km/h
> in approximately 20 metres which takes well under
> a second.
>
> Now taking into account that a tenth here or there
> in the pits can win or lose a race there is some
> grounds for driver error in the pitlane, but
> remember to be hit by a F1 car even at just 10km/h
> is going to bloody hurt!
>
> And it's only going to take a very small error of
> judgement to make big speed difference.
>
> Yes the mechanics know that it is dangerous and
> there is risk of injury to them, but does really
> offer any consolation if one of them ends up
> having his crown jewels violated because his
> driver mis-judges his braking into the pitbox?


being stapped in town is something very different, that happens on purpose, as a pitcrew you know drivers are human, and human make mistakes, so you know that it COULD happen, like the drivers in the 70's knew they COULD die becouse of a crash, its all part of the sport though, if you are scared for stuff like that, you better not be in the pitlane at all.

Perhaps I should have used the phrase "could be run over by a bus" but the point absolutely stands, you can't justify a consequences solely because someone knows about the risk.

Besides like it or not, murderers actually ARE Human. But lets not let this get off topic.

i agree with jim, good point

Ferrari could be using a Joker card for felipe for the next race at Spa, if they fix the issue

Ferrari should consider playing his so-called engine 'joker' after quickly remedying the car's reliability problems, Valencia winner Felipe Massa said on Sunday.

After the Brazilian's V8 unit failed within three laps of the chequered flag in Budapest three weeks ago, team-mate Kimi Raikkonen had a similarly smoky exit to the European Grand Prix.

The rules in 2008 allow each driver to make one unscheduled engine change without incurring the ordinary penalty.

Playing his 'joker' ahead of the forthcoming Belgian Grand Prix at Spa Francorchamps would allow Massa, who began a new two-race schedule with a fresh engine at Valencia, to benefit from any remedies to the problem put in place within the next two weeks.

"We need to work very hard and see if it is important to use or not to use the joker if we really have a problem," the 27-year-old told reporters.

Raikkonen's failure, while on course for sixth place on Sunday, drops him seven points behind Massa in the drivers' championship. His deficit to title leader Lewis Hamilton is 13 points.

Kimi could have had a free engine change, saying that I can not remember if they changed his engine after France or not.

Massa is best to use the same engine at Spa then a fresh one for Monza.

I think they did change Kimi's engine after France, which would explain why they didn't change it for Valencia when they knew there was high chance of it being affected by the same problem as Massa's at Hungary.

They just didn't want the ten place grid penalty.

Iceman-Kimi Wrote:
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> most strange thing is that the 2 engine failures
> happend in the last 2 races, theres an engine
> freeze, so it can mean 2 things, it was a
> production error, or ferrari is secretly
> developing their engines, and went down the wrong
> way with it.

You are allowed to develop certain areas of the engine if it's in the interests of reliability, and there's nothing to say you can't increase performance of those parts at the same time.

Of course, it's a nice irony that the push for performance through the loophole of reliability leads to 2 failures in 2 races... :D

That said, those engines must be pretty damn potent now. As we keep saying, STR's performance advantage over RBR, whether it's worth the 4-tenths Webber says or not, is clear.

I wonder if Renault are exploring development areas to do with the engine, but not covered by the freeze regulations. Because it seems clear that Ferrari and McLaren are putting a lot of effort into all the bits you bolt onto the engine, but isn't actually covered in the freeze, the lubricant suppliers are also putting a lot or R&D into their products I wonder if ELF are being left behind by Mobil and Shell.

To be honest I don't buy into this Ferrari engine giving the STR a four tenths advantage over the RBR thing. I'd doubt if it's clear cut like that. But it is clear that STR have gradually been getting to grips with the car and improving gradually over the last few races. But it hasn't been perfect for them, they messed it up at Hungary and to be honest it seems that RRB messed it up at Valencia.

STR were immediately quick when they get the '08 car though. It's clear they have an advantage at certain tracks, and it ties in with what Renault said back in Bahrain about them having neither enough torque or enough power. If ever a track shows that, then it's Valencia.

The Monza layout would be perfect for it too, but it's more about aero efficiency and power at those speeds than it is with torque and power. Again though, it will be interesting to see which is the faster. If STR are quicker, then it's all-but conclusive, and for me, entirely conclusive if both Bordais and Vettel are faster than Webber.

Webber: It's not just the engine
[www.autosport.com]

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He had to swerve towards the wall to avoid
> Massa.
>
> He didn't swerve at all though. There was a metre
> gap to his left which stayed constant until Massa
> had backed off, at which point Sutil did move left
> (after that narrowing of the pits - note not
> before that narrowing - after).

If you can find some onboard footage that clearly supports your claim, I have no problem conceding that point. But as it stands, it is just words against words. That gets us nowhere.


gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No it can't. They awarded the fine to the team.
> As
> > I said, they CANNOT change WHO the penalty goes
> > to, and they did.
>
> Define 'his' though. You could interpret that it's
> not Massa's car, but that of the team owner. Or
> the man/men responsible for the release of the
> car. I'm not going to trawl through the sporting
> code to see if there's a definition of 'his' in
> regards to who's car it is in such a situation,
> but it could clearly be open to interpretation and
> as such gives some leverage in such a situation to
> apply penalties in different ways. That the driver
> is totally reliant on his team in such situations
> should leave that interpretation open too.

You are not being serious are you?!? Please tell me you are joking!!!

The rule is "i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so." It is not possible for a team owner to release a car. The team owner is not a competitor either, only drivers are. There is no gap for interpretation.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

footage-go to everyone's favorite video site, type in; massa sutil, it's the 1st result.

There are some conflicting reports who actually got fined. When I glanced that Autosport article, i thought Massa got fined, so the reprimand and fine was within their rules, and was formally legal.

But it did actually say Ferrari was fined, however the official f1 site said it resulted in a reprimand for Brazilian and a hefty 10,000fine.

So it seems it was Massa who got fined afterall and my points stands.
Penalty was within their rules.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 02:59PM by BAR#10.

What would people say if it had been Lewis that done that to Massa or Kimi? I can only guess.

Ferrari have an advantage they are in that end pit box, fair enough they are world champs.

Had they not been in that end pit box massa would not have been able to go as the pit lane it simply not wide enough at this track. With their current system it does not take into account at all who is coming down the pit lane, had kimi made it out his pit box kovy would have had to slam his brakes on, watch the replay and you will see what I mean.

I noticed this in canada when kimi left his pit box when kubica was coming past.

I think I'd react the same. Last year I was cheering for Lewis then Kimi then Lewis, in Interlagos when the roles reversed couple of times and one was cathing the other one. Ussually going for the underdog anyway.

Montreal, Kubica was not in the fast lane yet, when Raikkonen was released from the pitstops.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

Watch again and you will see why kimi could not get over to the fast lane Anyway that was talked about in detail at the time.

The rule needs changing for that end pit box, at the moment they dont have to go straight into the fast lane, if they did massa would have hit sutil and kimi would have probably hit kubica or kubica hit him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 03:41PM by marcl.

No the system does not take into account traffic coming down the pitlane because because the green light is triggered by the fuel man pressing a button when he removes the fuel nozzle, BUT the lollipop man is not completely redundant because he is supposed to be watching the pitlane and has an override button.

Clearly in Massa's case this man did not do his job.

In Kimi's case the fuel man hadn't even finished, had not pressed his button but Kimi for reasons best known to himself decided to go anyway.

But this kind of behaviour is nothing new.. there are several cases of teams releasing their cars unsafely and it's not really the drivers fault because as covered already they haven't got a good view of the pitlane in their mirrors, partly because all you can see in the mirrors is the rear wing anyway but also because they have several mechanics around the car during a pit stop.

Therefore it must be the responsibility of the lollipop (trigger man in Ferrari's case) to keep an eye on the pitlane, and delay the car if there is a car on an obvious collision cause, they always used to do this in the past.

I remember several incidences in the late 90's early 00's where cars lost valuable seconds during the pit stops because the lollipop man had to delay them so they didn't crash into the car coming along the pitlane. Obviously this goes against the competitive nature of racing, but as has already been covered this is a safety concern and should be looked into because it is becoming a bit ridiculous.

Personally I think a points penalty would be the best way to control things. More often than not it's the pit crew at fault... so if it happens take some points away in the constructors. Then they'd soon do their job correctly. If the driver screws it up like Kimi did, then dock the driver points.

Fines are pretty much useless, but a point penalty can change their championship.

Well from now on teams can release drivers and they can not get a penalty just a fine and most teams dont care about $10,000 its nothing if they can get a better position in the race or championship.

Dont get me wrong I dont think Massa should loose the win or anything, but he should be dropped 5 places down the grid at the next race like people get for getting in the way in quali.

^^ what Jim said.

Morbid:
"You are not being serious are you?!? Please tell me you are joking!!!

The rule is "i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so." It is not possible for a team owner to release a car. The team owner is not a competitor either, only drivers are. There is no gap for interpretation."

I disagree, if not the team owner then who else? Who is defined as the 'competitor' - is it Scuderia Ferrari or Massa?

Certainly the driver can't tell his lollypop man when to go. It is entirely unreasonable to say that Massa is in charge of deciding when his pit crew releases him. He goes when he is told to, unless of course you are Kimi, in which case you whenever you want

Which ever way, I'm sure it's not coming straight out of Felipe's pocket.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 04:18PM by gareth.