F1 European Grand Prix: Valencia 2008
Posted by mcdo
Slash schreef:
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> in Hungary 2006 Kimi was not his teammate, so
> maybe Kimi would've been worse?
> in Fuji 2007 he chosed different tyres to Kimi
> becaus he had nothinig to loose and a lot to gain
> to keep hismelf in the championship battle, but it
> was the wrong desicion, in CHina 2007 he finished
> 3rd...
>
> yes Silverstone was shitty, you already mentioned,
> and i know so, i watched it, but i also watched he
> had the wrong tyres
fuji 2007 kimi was on the same tyres, so that cant be an excuse, in china massa was way behind kimi, in silverstone he again was on the same tyres as kimi most of the time, but he still finished way behind, kimi finished 4th.
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> in Hungary 2006 Kimi was not his teammate, so
> maybe Kimi would've been worse?
> in Fuji 2007 he chosed different tyres to Kimi
> becaus he had nothinig to loose and a lot to gain
> to keep hismelf in the championship battle, but it
> was the wrong desicion, in CHina 2007 he finished
> 3rd...
>
> yes Silverstone was shitty, you already mentioned,
> and i know so, i watched it, but i also watched he
> had the wrong tyres
fuji 2007 kimi was on the same tyres, so that cant be an excuse, in china massa was way behind kimi, in silverstone he again was on the same tyres as kimi most of the time, but he still finished way behind, kimi finished 4th.
ITV's pitlane reporter said that there is a button on the fuel hose that the mechanic presses when he's detached the hose from the car.
Domenicali explained how the team no longer uses a lollypop, but a system of lights in a pod directly in front of the driver. "The system works in the following way. When the fuel nozzle is connected to the car, you see that there is a red light on. At a certain moment, you see that there is a flashing light that is close to the red light, telling the driver that he has to be ready. Then, as soon as the nozzle comes off, the light becomes green unless the guy that is controlling the pit stop position overrides it manually, because there is a car in the fast lane coming through, so he has to delay the car. That is how the system works. We've used it since last year."
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2008 02:05PM by LS..
Domenicali explained how the team no longer uses a lollypop, but a system of lights in a pod directly in front of the driver. "The system works in the following way. When the fuel nozzle is connected to the car, you see that there is a red light on. At a certain moment, you see that there is a flashing light that is close to the red light, telling the driver that he has to be ready. Then, as soon as the nozzle comes off, the light becomes green unless the guy that is controlling the pit stop position overrides it manually, because there is a car in the fast lane coming through, so he has to delay the car. That is how the system works. We've used it since last year."
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2008 02:05PM by LS..
I remember people saying, probably me(!!) that Ferraris new system would be better, but looks like its caused two problems in one weekend.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
granted, Kimis incident was entirely Kimis fault. But once he saw the amber, he soon expected the green so probably chose to go, had they had a lollipop man, he would have probably remained stationary because the lollipop man would ahve seen the fuel nozzel still stuck on. In most cases of pit incidents its been the lollipop man releasing a driver too early.
But I dont think a lollipop man would not have let massa go, yes it's happened before but mot that often.
However Massa should have been penalized for it. It is against the rules and people have been punished for it before, so Massa should have been.
Massa was the one who had to take the quick action to avoid any possible accident and he did so avoid an accident. Rules are rules I agree, but like i said earlier why was nothing at all done about Alonso or Vettel.
Alonso broke the rules by crossing the white line, Vettel caused a dangerous situation causing Alonso to break the rules.
Nothign was said at all abotu that. It is the exactly the same situation, except in the case of Massa rather than cause an accident he slowed. At Germany, neither driver gave and Alonso crossed the white line.
Had either of them had got a penalty Vettel tbh, then I dont think there would no problem in handing Massa a drive-through, I still think it would be debatable whether it was right or wrong, but less so because they, the FIA would just be following previous examples.
For once it looks like they have kept consistancy with decisions.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
But I dont think a lollipop man would not have let massa go, yes it's happened before but mot that often.
However Massa should have been penalized for it. It is against the rules and people have been punished for it before, so Massa should have been.
Massa was the one who had to take the quick action to avoid any possible accident and he did so avoid an accident. Rules are rules I agree, but like i said earlier why was nothing at all done about Alonso or Vettel.
Alonso broke the rules by crossing the white line, Vettel caused a dangerous situation causing Alonso to break the rules.
Nothign was said at all abotu that. It is the exactly the same situation, except in the case of Massa rather than cause an accident he slowed. At Germany, neither driver gave and Alonso crossed the white line.
Had either of them had got a penalty Vettel tbh, then I dont think there would no problem in handing Massa a drive-through, I still think it would be debatable whether it was right or wrong, but less so because they, the FIA would just be following previous examples.
For once it looks like they have kept consistancy with decisions.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
how is this different from raikkonen at canada?
even if he had not been hit by lewis, i doubt there would have been a penalty for kimi.
even alonso and vettel in hockenheim came out side by side and one of them was even pushed over the pit exit line, but no penalty
X (@ed24f1)
even if he had not been hit by lewis, i doubt there would have been a penalty for kimi.
even alonso and vettel in hockenheim came out side by side and one of them was even pushed over the pit exit line, but no penalty
X (@ed24f1)
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> That doesn't make any sense (no offense). The
> system has worked countless times, at every event.
> Why would Kimi be expecting a green light sooner
> than normal? And Kimi can see the tyres being put
> on. If he is being held by a lollipop man, he
> still knows when the tyres are done, just like the
> amber light tells him with the current setup.
A lollipop man has worked countless times
Both can and have gone wrong in one way or another.
I meant once Kimi saw the amber he probably reacted to that assuming the green was to directly follow, his mistake, though we do not know what he was thinking. But with a lollipop man he would never have let Kimi go, therefore not allowing Kimi to make the same error.
> He didn't make any quick action. He pulled
> alongside, and stayed there until he was faced
> with a solid concrete wall, and then he moved. His
> statement blaming Sutil, who followed the rules
> that F1 has been operating with since before Massa
> had even became a Formula One driver, was at
> fault, is simply insulting.
Massa still avoided an accident which I think is the main reason he did not get a race penalty.
> Even when he was alongside, Massa made no attempt
> to get in behind Sutil like the rules dictate. He
> stayed alongside until the end of the pit lane and
> only got back in line just before the wall.
>
What you mean like Alonso and Vettel incident??? Which ill mention again was not given a thought of penalty by the looks of it.
To me it seemed the FIA messed things up themselves. Had they given Vettel the penalty at Germany then to give Massa one would have been as easy as a click of the fingers and the correct thing to do! However because the FIA never gave such a penalty or even a warning to either Vettel or Alonso it would be very wrong to punish Massa, and imo that was the main thing that held them back from a race penalty, ie a drive through.
And again what is the difference between this incident and the Canada one?
Ok Canada has wider pit exit, BUT like Sim said earlier what if Ferrari were not the last team in the pitlane? The pitlane is only one lane. Kimi should have been peanalized, so should Vettel and so should Massa. BUT because niether of the previous were punished how could they punish Massa, for doing what was done before, but unlike Vettel, Massa DID NOT force Alonso to break the rules.
edit - Lewis ran into Kimi, Lewis's fault, but Kimi ahd no right to be in that place in the first place, ahd he not been there then Lewis could have n00bed it up still AND got away with it without taking out other drivers. Lewis being silly and Kimi/Ferrari being dangerous (????) took each other out.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2008 06:47PM by chet.
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> That doesn't make any sense (no offense). The
> system has worked countless times, at every event.
> Why would Kimi be expecting a green light sooner
> than normal? And Kimi can see the tyres being put
> on. If he is being held by a lollipop man, he
> still knows when the tyres are done, just like the
> amber light tells him with the current setup.
A lollipop man has worked countless times
Both can and have gone wrong in one way or another.I meant once Kimi saw the amber he probably reacted to that assuming the green was to directly follow, his mistake, though we do not know what he was thinking. But with a lollipop man he would never have let Kimi go, therefore not allowing Kimi to make the same error.
> He didn't make any quick action. He pulled
> alongside, and stayed there until he was faced
> with a solid concrete wall, and then he moved. His
> statement blaming Sutil, who followed the rules
> that F1 has been operating with since before Massa
> had even became a Formula One driver, was at
> fault, is simply insulting.
Massa still avoided an accident which I think is the main reason he did not get a race penalty.
> Even when he was alongside, Massa made no attempt
> to get in behind Sutil like the rules dictate. He
> stayed alongside until the end of the pit lane and
> only got back in line just before the wall.
>
What you mean like Alonso and Vettel incident??? Which ill mention again was not given a thought of penalty by the looks of it.
To me it seemed the FIA messed things up themselves. Had they given Vettel the penalty at Germany then to give Massa one would have been as easy as a click of the fingers and the correct thing to do! However because the FIA never gave such a penalty or even a warning to either Vettel or Alonso it would be very wrong to punish Massa, and imo that was the main thing that held them back from a race penalty, ie a drive through.
And again what is the difference between this incident and the Canada one?
Ok Canada has wider pit exit, BUT like Sim said earlier what if Ferrari were not the last team in the pitlane? The pitlane is only one lane. Kimi should have been peanalized, so should Vettel and so should Massa. BUT because niether of the previous were punished how could they punish Massa, for doing what was done before, but unlike Vettel, Massa DID NOT force Alonso to break the rules.
edit - Lewis ran into Kimi, Lewis's fault, but Kimi ahd no right to be in that place in the first place, ahd he not been there then Lewis could have n00bed it up still AND got away with it without taking out other drivers. Lewis being silly and Kimi/Ferrari being dangerous (????) took each other out.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2008 06:47PM by chet.
A lollipop man has worked countless times Both can and have gone wrong in one way or another.
As has the Ferrari lights system. Just because there was 2 human errors today, doesn't mean there was an issue with the system. Kimi jumped the light, and Massa was let out into the path of another car, in the exact same fashion a lollipop man has also done in the past many times.
I meant once Kimi saw the amber he probably reacted to that assuming the green was to directly follow, his mistake, though we do not know what he was thinking. But with a lollipop man he would never have let Kimi go, therefore not allowing Kimi to make the same error.
Incorrect for 2 reasons. Firstly, as I already said, Kimi has been using this system since it was introduced. He, like you, me, and everybody else, knows that the green does not directly follow the amber. If he has understood this system every other time, why would he suddenly think "Well, no other time has the green come on directly after amber...but maybe this time....AMBER, GO GO GO! Crap..."?
And there are MANY occasions that the exact same problem has happened with a Lollipop man. If the Lollipop man even twiches, the drivers react and drive off. The teams which flip over the Lollipop, surely thats just a signal they need to accidentally drive off?
Massa still avoided an accident which I think is the main reason he did not get a race penalty.
Sorry but if thats the though process that went through the complete disregard for the rules and regulations then why don't we just bin the entire rule book? The only reason Massa avoided an accident was because he put himself in the situation to have one.. Had he slowed down and gotten behind Sutil, like the regulations dictate he should, then you could give him credit. But he didn't, he stayed alongside and only backed off because there was a wall in front of him. He broke the regulations and only avoided an accident because he would have been effected, not because the rule book said. He was acting in his own interests, not in the interests of the rule book, or in the interest of the safety of the people in the pit lane.
What you mean like Alonso and Vettel incident??? Which ill mention again was not given a thought of penalty by the looks of it.
One swallow does not make a summer (but it does make a good time). Drivers have been penalised for the team letting them out in front of cars in the passed, and he was not. It even happened on Saturday for the GP2 race, which has the same pit lane and sporting regulations as F1 does.
And again what is the difference between this incident and the Canada one?
I already addressed that in the post above, but shall do so again. The only reason the Canada incident was not talked about was because there was an accident occuring. The accident completely drew away attention to the fact they were side by side. Had the accident not occurred then people would have talked about the double file pit lane capers.
Think of it this way. You find £20 in the street. Thats pretty cool by anyones standards. But on the way home, you see an alien space ship. Which one do you immediately talk about?
edit - Lewis ran into Kimi, Lewis's fault, but Kimi ahd no right to be in that place in the first place, ahd he not been there then Lewis could have n00bed it up still AND got away with it without taking out other drivers. Lewis being silly and Kimi/Ferrari being dangerous (????) took each other out.
I know Kimi broke the rules. Were did I dispute that? And if the same situation had happened, and Lewis was being a moron, then he would have either ran the red light and rejoined the circuit illegally, or he would have just missed the back of the train of cars on the right, and went to the left - thus not only going double wide anyway, but overtaking in the pit lane, which is a massive no no. So either way, Lewis would have made a complete arse of himself, whether or not Kimi was there or not.
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Both can and have gone wrong in one way or another. As has the Ferrari lights system. Just because there was 2 human errors today, doesn't mean there was an issue with the system. Kimi jumped the light, and Massa was let out into the path of another car, in the exact same fashion a lollipop man has also done in the past many times.
I meant once Kimi saw the amber he probably reacted to that assuming the green was to directly follow, his mistake, though we do not know what he was thinking. But with a lollipop man he would never have let Kimi go, therefore not allowing Kimi to make the same error.
Incorrect for 2 reasons. Firstly, as I already said, Kimi has been using this system since it was introduced. He, like you, me, and everybody else, knows that the green does not directly follow the amber. If he has understood this system every other time, why would he suddenly think "Well, no other time has the green come on directly after amber...but maybe this time....AMBER, GO GO GO! Crap..."?
And there are MANY occasions that the exact same problem has happened with a Lollipop man. If the Lollipop man even twiches, the drivers react and drive off. The teams which flip over the Lollipop, surely thats just a signal they need to accidentally drive off?
Massa still avoided an accident which I think is the main reason he did not get a race penalty.
Sorry but if thats the though process that went through the complete disregard for the rules and regulations then why don't we just bin the entire rule book? The only reason Massa avoided an accident was because he put himself in the situation to have one.. Had he slowed down and gotten behind Sutil, like the regulations dictate he should, then you could give him credit. But he didn't, he stayed alongside and only backed off because there was a wall in front of him. He broke the regulations and only avoided an accident because he would have been effected, not because the rule book said. He was acting in his own interests, not in the interests of the rule book, or in the interest of the safety of the people in the pit lane.
What you mean like Alonso and Vettel incident??? Which ill mention again was not given a thought of penalty by the looks of it.
One swallow does not make a summer (but it does make a good time). Drivers have been penalised for the team letting them out in front of cars in the passed, and he was not. It even happened on Saturday for the GP2 race, which has the same pit lane and sporting regulations as F1 does.
And again what is the difference between this incident and the Canada one?
I already addressed that in the post above, but shall do so again. The only reason the Canada incident was not talked about was because there was an accident occuring. The accident completely drew away attention to the fact they were side by side. Had the accident not occurred then people would have talked about the double file pit lane capers.
Think of it this way. You find £20 in the street. Thats pretty cool by anyones standards. But on the way home, you see an alien space ship. Which one do you immediately talk about?
edit - Lewis ran into Kimi, Lewis's fault, but Kimi ahd no right to be in that place in the first place, ahd he not been there then Lewis could have n00bed it up still AND got away with it without taking out other drivers. Lewis being silly and Kimi/Ferrari being dangerous (????) took each other out.
I know Kimi broke the rules. Were did I dispute that? And if the same situation had happened, and Lewis was being a moron, then he would have either ran the red light and rejoined the circuit illegally, or he would have just missed the back of the train of cars on the right, and went to the left - thus not only going double wide anyway, but overtaking in the pit lane, which is a massive no no. So either way, Lewis would have made a complete arse of himself, whether or not Kimi was there or not.
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I never once said there was an issue with the system.
Incorrect for 2 reasons. Firstly, as I already said, Kimi has been using this system since it was introduced. He, like you, me, and everybody else, knows that the green does not directly follow the amber. If he has understood this system every other time, why would he suddenly think "Well, no other time has the green come on directly after amber...but maybe this time....AMBER, GO GO GO! Crap..."?
Maybe so, but remember he was racing Heikki and for all we know just reacted to the amber assuming the lights would go green for when he left. I said it was my opinion he left in a rush. Like I said who knows what he was thinking, he made a mistake, others have done it in the past with the lollipop man, reacting too quick despite the lollipop still being down.
One swallow does not make a summer (but it does make a good time). Drivers have been penalised for the team letting them out in front of cars in the passed, and he was not. It even happened on Saturday for the GP2 race, which has the same pit lane and sporting regulations as F1 does.
Chandok incident?? That was abit different, that was blatent disrespect to the rules and in that case the end result was not as clean as Massa-Sutil.
Yes drivers have been penailised and I agree that yes they should ahve. And I would agree that Massa should ahve PROVIDED the FIA Penalised Vettel, and Kimi and yet there was nothing.
About Kimi, the point is not that there was accident, in fact shouldnt the accident only prove the point that Kimi should not have been let go? No kimi in the way no accident? No-one mentioned it because the pitlane is wide enough, though it does not excuse the fact that he should not have been released.
Yes Ferrari were in the wrong, and Massa for simply not slotting in initially but I can just can see how the FIA would ahve justified a penalty without having given Vettel one. Had that not happened I would have been all for Massa getting a drive through.
He broke the rules to certain degree, as did Kimi as did Vettel. No penalty for either. The FIA have @#$%& themselves up because the next time it happens this season, say in Spa, how can they give the driver a penalty when he clearly deserves it?
The team will just come back with the argument, as Ferrari did, that the incident has happened before this season with no action taken.
Whilst were on penaltys, who else agrees Alonso fine is just so stupid? 10,000 euros for crossing a painted line. How do they work out it cost that much?
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Incorrect for 2 reasons. Firstly, as I already said, Kimi has been using this system since it was introduced. He, like you, me, and everybody else, knows that the green does not directly follow the amber. If he has understood this system every other time, why would he suddenly think "Well, no other time has the green come on directly after amber...but maybe this time....AMBER, GO GO GO! Crap..."?
Maybe so, but remember he was racing Heikki and for all we know just reacted to the amber assuming the lights would go green for when he left. I said it was my opinion he left in a rush. Like I said who knows what he was thinking, he made a mistake, others have done it in the past with the lollipop man, reacting too quick despite the lollipop still being down.
One swallow does not make a summer (but it does make a good time). Drivers have been penalised for the team letting them out in front of cars in the passed, and he was not. It even happened on Saturday for the GP2 race, which has the same pit lane and sporting regulations as F1 does.
Chandok incident?? That was abit different, that was blatent disrespect to the rules and in that case the end result was not as clean as Massa-Sutil.
Yes drivers have been penailised and I agree that yes they should ahve. And I would agree that Massa should ahve PROVIDED the FIA Penalised Vettel, and Kimi and yet there was nothing.
About Kimi, the point is not that there was accident, in fact shouldnt the accident only prove the point that Kimi should not have been let go? No kimi in the way no accident? No-one mentioned it because the pitlane is wide enough, though it does not excuse the fact that he should not have been released.
Yes Ferrari were in the wrong, and Massa for simply not slotting in initially but I can just can see how the FIA would ahve justified a penalty without having given Vettel one. Had that not happened I would have been all for Massa getting a drive through.
He broke the rules to certain degree, as did Kimi as did Vettel. No penalty for either. The FIA have @#$%& themselves up because the next time it happens this season, say in Spa, how can they give the driver a penalty when he clearly deserves it?
The team will just come back with the argument, as Ferrari did, that the incident has happened before this season with no action taken.
Whilst were on penaltys, who else agrees Alonso fine is just so stupid? 10,000 euros for crossing a painted line. How do they work out it cost that much?
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
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