The 2005 Indianapolis GP Thread [spoiler warning]

I can't believe people have convinced themselves that the dissapointment over last nights debacle should be aimed at anyone but Michellin.

Can anyone show me one bit of evidence that Ferrari have hired Ninja staff to corrupt Michellin's data?? I thought not.

That company has a responsibility to supply it's teams with tyres that will allow thier drivers to race safely for an full race distance. They failed to do that.

I'm very VERY delighted however that the other teams were ridiculous enough to someone like Michael a foot back into the Championship fight! And I suppose that's what all the anger is about; embarrasment.

It WAS ridiculous: It is NOT the death of F1.

I guess we ALL race on Bridgestones when we go to one tyre manufacturer then...

We have been asked to be polite and respectful so I will do my best.


@HakkinenF1:

I won't try to reason with you since you are a Hakkinen-fan.
(which automatically makes you a Ferrari and Schumacher-hater).

Still I would like to reply to some of your posts which are so full of BS they make me want to puke.


***"i was hoping that all the fans on the track will through stuff to the circute "***

Hooligans are not fans. Although I understand their reaction, the problem comes from Michelin, not Ferrari.
Their anger is directed at the wrong people.


***"Ferrari could have fixed the situation
Fia or trakc offical could not refues ten teams demand of a chican"***

Let's make it simple:
7 teams with Michelin.
3 teams with Bridgestone.

If Bridgestone had brought faulty tyres and asked for a chicane, the Michelin teams would have refused. And you KNOW that.
Of course, if all the teams demand a chicane then that's okay.
But there's NO REASON to change the layout for 1 manufacturer's mistake.
It would have been unfair for Bridgestone-runners whose tyres were meant to go flat-out in the banking.


***"Ferrari screwd 6 billion didcated f1 fans just to get 18 points"***

That has NOTHING to do with Ferrari: Their tyres were fine. Of course they should have been allowed to race and get 18 points.


***"Ferrari are the bad guys here
we are not talking about allowing one team to race
we are talking about 7"***

And if it had been the other way around the bad guys would have been Sauber, McLaren, Renault, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams and BAR.
This is just a lame excuse for unnecessary Ferrari-bashing.


***"It

Have a banana HakkinenF1.

Well, After getting home from work, I have finally seen what is definantly the weirdest grandprix in modern times!

Anyway, the blame for this 'fiasco' goes straight to Michelin. They put performance over durability, 6 years they raced at indy, they knew about the loads on t13. What would have happened if bridgestone pulled its three teams?


moving along, In any sporting event or organization, these things do happen. There are days when things seem to be completely @#$%& up! Today's events are completely understandible, however, the reaction to it was completely disgusting. Beer, water bottles, garbage thrown onto the track, that is not very respectable, considering the three teams out on track are doing their best to provide the ticket holders with as much excitement as possible.

There is a bigger issue here however, and in all honesty I think it has to do with the gpwc, and the constructor companies. It seems to me as though this was well staged.

We need a single tire manufacturer in formula one, this is getting a little to crude for many people.

again, this wasnt ferrari screwing over Michelin teams, it was the FIA saying, 'we can compromise, but you dont @#$%& cheat"

btw Michelins CHicane idea came across to me in this light " Hmmmm we dont feel like racing at indy, lets go race at walkins glen instead"

surely Michelins behavior on ordering their teams to not race today is kinda childish according to FIA's behavior. FIA would reply on "this child crying done by Michelin would not happened if drivers would went slower, if engineers would reduce their aero-load, i.e. if teams would obey the rlz word by word". most probably michelin's incident & todayts gp will cause nothing but being remembered in the future as one of the foolish races in history. about sumones post of repating the issue on hockenheim & monza.. michelin tested with jarno in monza & after 80 laps nothing happened. hockenheim is dirty but there r no oval-like curves & michelin didnt complaint on tyre wear. real issue is excessive load on rear tyres raised by last turns & how they did helped on lil'schumi's crash on friday

it'd b "nice"* if Schumi will win this WDC mainly helped by today's results. "Luck of champions" we'll say.

*nice because of the tough kick-in-the-guts for renault & mclaren on losing their WDC "fixed" forecasts because of Michelin's childish behaviors.

----------------------------

Just note USA doesn't like F1 (since 1981)

Hungarian GP, 1997. Last laps just when damon's problems had just begun:
(Louise Goodman has just reported that Damon Hill was on the radio with Tom Walkinshaw)
Murray: "How do they do that, Martin? How does a man talk calmly and especially to his team boss, when Damon in the situation he's in?"
Martin: "Well, you press a little button on the steering wheel and start talking, Murray. There's a little speaker in the front of your crash helmet..."
(excerpted from the "Brundle's Quote Central")

havent read since page 10 but im going to look on the positives of the race.

1. Jordan and Minardi got some decent coverage for their sponsers. I never knew www.co.tv were sponsering minardi :P (i dont actually know who they are )

2. Tiago Monteiro looked bloody pleased and i dont blame him. His first and most probably only ever podium in F1. Shame he was the only one having a good time.

I'm sure It was never Michelin's intention making/bringing the wrong tires... off course that was their fault... but it wasn't their fault that there was no GP.

They (Michelin and its teams) offerered several solutions. These 'workarounds' even included penalties for Michelin teams, but were refused by FIA and/or Ferrari. So they're to blame too.


Saludos desde Colombia.

Did FIA have the rights to cancel the race?
Why they don't cancel it?

Because cancelling the race would have caused a bigger outrage then what has already transpired.

Don´t agree that Ferrari has blame on this...
Why they have to give away a right that they have, and is on the regulations, since their tyres are ok...no problems...
Don´t see any reason...
Best interests of the sport?
All the ones involved in the requisitions to race always talk about best interests of the sport...but, don´t aprove regulations and changes that cleary will benefit the sport...so...
It´s only about Michelin bringing a tyre that don´t cope with the condiditions...and it´s a mistake. And this can happen, especially because tyres had to change since last year to last qualifying and the whole race. Of corse Michelin don´t do this on purpose, but a mistake it´s plausible when you risk to win races. A mistake that unfortunely happened...and if you can´t race...you don´t race. That´s it.
All other things are just a consequence...
For me no reason to say it´s all a @#$%&....because for me it´s not the case.
Hope that don´t happen again, otherwise, I can change my view...
But so far...for me, it´s just a very bad chain of facts, unfortunate facts.

I hope the michelin teams loses the World Championship over this. They could have raced slower and then for the places 3rd - .... and like that ferrari wouldn't have be able to move up with 18 pts! There was an advice to slow down in that corner but that was refused by the teams, advice from michelin and they put it next to them!

The michelin teams got what they deserved and the bridgestone teams did their job for what they are paid for!

Michelin teams tried to blackmail the gp and it didn't work so for not losing their faces they did what they said withdraw from the race!

And a race with a chicane when the points were already for bridgestone team would have been bored too, why risking a thing when you can't gain something!

Only one thing to say: GO ferrari GO GO GO GO and its 1 finger against 4 !!!

"Ferrari screwd 6 billion didcated f1 fans just to get 18 points"

...there's only 6 billion people on earth, so how can there be 6 billion F1 fans? let alone dedicated ones?

I really don't blame Ferrari for any of this, as Schumi always likes to say - it's racing, not playing games. If what Stoddy said is true, then I am disappointed with Jordan for running, however I don't know the whole story so I can't really judge...

You know what the worst thing is? I had $10 on a 1-2 for Kimi and Jarno! I could have won $410...

I think F1 will recover from this, but I will be most upset if those fans don't get their money back.

What a crock.

LS. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jagdpanzer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > This is what happens will billionaire old men
> like
> > Max Mosely and Bernie Ecclestone run a sport
> with
> > an iron hand. No compromise, no innovation,
> profit
> > means everything.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Surely if that was the case that all they are
> bothered about is profit, then they would have
> done everything to avoid what happened today to
> ensure they get maximum profit out it
>


But isn't that EXACTLY what happened? Bernie got his cut. FIA got their cut. The Indy promoter got his cut, although events were beyond Indy's control. Bernie didn't even hang around until the end of the race to answer questions or do damage control. He left halfway through,and BTW, it was out the back exit at Indy...

The people hurt the most here are the fans that paid to see the race at the track, and F1 in the United States. USA F1 fans got cheated. We are not all beer swilling, redneck NASCAR fans here. I follow F1 with a passion, even though I am relatively a new fan. F1's history is unsurpassed in motor sport, and before Bernie and Max stopped caring it had a tradition too.

I love F1. It has the potential to really flourish and capture the imagination of the racing fans here. 130,000 people showed up at Indy on Sunday folks. That's in the top 3 for the entire F1 calender. So how come so many of you are easily disregarding this farce? NASCAR looks like a marketing genius compared to the embarasement the runs out of Max Mosely and F1's press releases these days. No one even knows if there WILL be a USGP next year, and since I was eagerly planning to attend it in 2006, I am VERY concerned.

Bernie and the potential members of the "WCGP" or whatever they are calling it basically tried to upstage each other and have a showdown, and neither cared about the race fans or what happened at the track.

Best case scenario here is Michelin is kicked out of F1 and we have a USGP next year. Worst case is F1 dies in the USA and this prima donna squabbling and political BS continues in F1. If that happens it might very well die elsewhere too....

Scorpion Racer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man, it´s normal such reaction because a fiasco
> like this one. It was terrible, for F1, for Indy
> fans, for everybody.
> But, ahead of the circuntances, I don´t think
> nothing different should happened.
> I mean, Michelin don´t had a tyre capable of race.
> With or without bank, with or without chicane, as
> M. Shumacher says about the talk he has with one
> with the Michelin runners. So...what FIA should
> do? allow more than half of the grid to break
> rules? They make the rules, they can´t allow teams
> to brake the rule to aid some manufacturer that
> made a pure and simple mistake. What Ferrari could
> do? They work hard to have a proper chance of
> victory, and because conditions out of their
> control they have to agree in give away a right
> that they have? I would say no, they don´t have to
> agree. Michael gives a very enfatic example, in
> the press conference, about the yellow flags
> situation at Monza...2001. Bridgestone has tyres
> without problems...they had nothing to do with
> Michelin problems.
> The point is...Michelin could not race, e rightly
> advise the teams to not race, and rightly they
> take this advise.
> It´s sad...it´s a @#$%&...but @#$%&´s
> happen...manufactures can made mistakes, and that
> mistake cost them a lot...but, that´s suppose to
> happen because a misktake.
> For me, there is no reason to panic. Just work
> hard to prevent this to happen again, or, even
> more....make rules more flexible for such cases.
> F1 isn´t a zone, isn´t a tragedy, isn´t a
> amateur competition. This things don´t occur every
> year, every season. But, life it´s this way,
> accidents can happen, strange situations can
> happen, and for more unbelieveble that can appear,
> things like this can happen, especially in light
> of this tyre problem.
> It was a big blow for F1 at USA, but, it was just
> a sad chain of facts that lead to this. Michelin
> could not find a solution, so, they should not
> race and that´s it.
> I know most fans will not agree...it´s just my
> view.
> I don´t see reason for panic, and I see no reason
> why we can´t have great future races at Indy...if
> people can understand this....wich it´s
> unlikely...


You are most wrong, your post makes a lot of sense and is sensible to the subject, exactly what has been lacking from most people.

Michelin teams NEVER blackmailed the race at all...I don't see it that way, if Michelin is my tyre supplier, I must trust on them, and if they say it's not secure to race with those tyres what else can you do? risk drivers lifes? Go and see what happens, and if actually something happens, then the team will say "Why we didn't hear Michelin advices?". I personally wont like another situation like what happened to Senna in 94

I'm more relaxed now, and yeah it was Michelin fault to not bring safe tyres.
But it was FIA fault not to find a solution to this, in order to avoid all of this comments and fans angry. At the end, they knew the worst consequence will go to FIA and F1, cause Michein is part of them in a way. For sure, both proposals from Michelin were not the best, but at least FIA, and specially Ecclestone should have helped to find a solution.

Ferrari didn't help that much either, but i can understand them, but not from FIA and F! organization

No chicane in turn 12 = No race = Blackmail

No, That's the only way the Michelin wouldn't suffer, and it wouldn't hurt anybody

calimbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, That's the only way the Michelin wouldn't
> suffer, and it wouldn't hurt anybody

it would have hurt bridgestone runners who could lap 1 or 2 seconds faster without the chicane. ferrari are there to race not to give everyone a fair chance. this would be similar to asking the track to be heated or cooled because it suits bridgestone better.

Bigbrother Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No chicane in turn 12 = No race = Blackmail
>

Incorrect. First of all, it was Turn 13. Secondly, the michelin teams offered to race without getting any points, if they could get the safety issue resolved... just to keep the show on the road and please the fans. How on gods green earth can that be called blackmail?

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

They could have raced slower and then for the places 3rd

bigbro, thru your red mist it seems you're missing some points
they couldn't have raced slower. michelin effectively banned them from racing, which they can do as they are resposible for the tyres.

the michelon drivers arent 'soft' (to keep from non-family suitable words). they had no choice.

the only driver that had any real say in things was schumacher. he could've gone in for a bit of solodarity and told his bosses. the fia and the press that he wouldnt race without the michelin teams.
would ferrari sack him? probably not. has a seven time champion got so little power (or sense)?


its unbeilevable that they allowed a race to go ahead with 6 cars (albeith with 4 having no chance of winning and one unallowed to win) when there were other options.

i guess ferrari didnt want to finish 5th or 6th and still get 10 points - a bit embarrasing, nor did they want the risk of 14 other cars taking them out.

ferrari took the 18 points, and good on them :|

____
Tony