The 2005 Indianapolis GP Thread [spoiler warning]

I just have to put my thoughts here, I honestly can't go back and read 32 pages, mostly which I know will be filled with posts that help with nothing.

If everyone here goes and read about the happenings, they will know that:

-Michelin had tyre issues in some occasions and wanted to make sure it wouldn't happen to anyone else.

-Michelin did not have backup tyres for the teams, in case such thing happens. But also, due to the new regulations if either Michelin/Bridgestone brought their slower but safer backup tyres, they would most likely not use it and probably hurt their performance in a race.

-Michelin proposed bringing their new tyres from Spain (I believe), but it wasn't approved by the FIA because it would mean the Michelin teams would have brand spanking new tyres for the race while the 6 other cars would have to keep their tyres.

-Mr. Whiting proposed a set of things that would have easily allowed the race to go on, such as continuous pitstops for new tyres, time penalty for new tyres (without stopping), and so on, all without having to place a chicane on the track, but it was rejected.

-Ferrari did not want the chicane and the other 2 Bridgestone teams did. But why would the opinion of the cars that would end up last in the race matter, when they cannot seriously perform like Ferrari, thus not being hurt by such decision as Ferrari? There is simply way too much unbased arguments bashing Ferrari. The only thing you can blame them for is for wanting to race but not in a way that would undermine them and beneficiate all others.

-You heard from David Coulthard something like "tyres are fine, I want to race."

-It is reported that other teams didn't have had issues with tyres, but they didn't run because Michelin didn't want them to go out and perhaps having their tyre as the cause to someone's death (I can't blame them for that, can you?).

-The proposed changes for this race to take place, from the FIA, were very good I believe, it would allow the race to go on and no team would have an advantage (you can argue Bridgestone, but the cars with those wouldn't be able to push like the Michelins) above other. But it is still a bit unclear on who had the last call on that, if Michelin said absolutely not or if the teams could decide their fates.

-If Michelin didn't accept their cars coming in for fresh tyres every so often, then why were they absolutely fine with just placing a chicane on the track, forcing everyone to race a full race with the same tyres that could have blown up?

I wrote these being only biased towards having an actual race, screw all that "fanboy" talk. Hopefully other people here will understand these, even if they do not wish to agree.

thos are not more teams...
those are the whole teams...
you can't build a race with tow Minardis and tow Jordans..and two red trators...
and just a reminder..when Ferrari refused they were acknowledeged that Minardi and Jordan..were pulling out
so they actually agreed to race alone...

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Is it their fault for someone else's failure? Remember, the FIA proposals sounded much better than the chicane. Toyota in fact was against the teams having 3 laps around the track with the chicane, so they wouldn't lose their pole. Just gives a whole new perspective, huh?

One thing I was also thinking, Michelin has had many things going wrong with them in the past years. When the time comes for the single tyre manufacturer rule, I'd think Bridgestone would be the most probable choice - unless an outside manufacturer is selected.

Here's a random "possible chicane" related thought.

I might have misunderstood it but following the Stoddart-FIA battle this year i was left with the impression that FIA have the rights to change the rules involving the safety matter without the consent of the teams.

What i am getting at is that installing a chicane in T13 would probably under all circumstances be considered a safety related issue so in reality FIA and only FIA had the right to decide what to do.

Now i don't know to be honest what would have happened had all 10 teams reached an agreement.

It is certainly a dangerous precedent.Yes,chicanes were installed before on otherwise safe circuits.Years on some people called it FIA overreaction.But never to my knowledge has such change been done during an actual weekend.I am not aware of the rule book on this one but according to Whiting it would certainly break some rules probably regarding track homologation and as guess on my part would probably make it a non-championship race.

Withou willing to stir a controversy their is a certain question mark hanging over the ability of the cars to complete the whole race.According to Sam Michael the problem was actually more setup related and could be solved even if it involved compromising performance.Certainly there were at least a couple of drivers who were prepared to race.

I'd risk to say that Michelin knew that they were beaten but instead decided to undermine the credibility of the USA GP by their actions.Certainly FIA had presented them with possible alternatives which even involved placing a speed trap for which all the cars would slow down,which surprise,surprise was rejected by the Michelin teams.

I also find it incredibly surprising that Ferrari with all the bad press they recieved over the years rejected the idea of Bridgestone runners being awarded the first 6 places.

Is this a simple matter of confusing reports or something else?Certainly if it was the latter a very small percentage of the blame should go to them.

In the end i can only feel sorry for the thousands of people trackside and the viwers on TV.But life goes on and i am hopeful of a good problem-free race in 2 weeks time.

this is a very good artical taking from Planet-F1 summuraises they whole thing
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Ferrari
Nine teams agree on a way forward and the one team that spoils it all is

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Stop blaming Ferrari for something they had no say with. It wasn't their fault Michelin goofed up.

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My Video Game Collection (Missing NES/SNES games)

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planet-f1.com

Michael Schumacher
Presumably after this race Michael Schumacher will be resigning from his position in the Grand Prix Drivers Association. He

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Hakkinenf1, you are quoting that article out of context. The real article (which can be found here [www.planet-f1.com] ) lays blame all round INCLUDING, but not limited too, Ferrari.

Please don't mislead people like that to suit your own agenda. Its called manipulation.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

you can notice by the word
Ferrari and Schumi...that they are talking about one of many...
i wouldn't had put the Planet-f1.com if i wanted to missled people..
but i was talking about the Ferrari Schumi part here...

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Has anyone thought about what might happen at Monza...or Hockenheim. Both tracks have potential for this problem to arise again.

I havent read all 32 pages, but i have topoin out that in 2003 during the brazilian gp.Bridgestone brought wet tyres that would not owrk in full wet conditions. int he interest of safety..the FIA and charlie whiting aborted the start of the race and ran behind the safety car for six laps. No penalty was imposed one the bridgestone teams for this. Instead everyone was blaming the wet tyre rule and the dodgy drainage system at interlagos.

\today the situation was similar but nobody is blaming the one tyre per race rule..or the dodgy diamond cut track surface. In fact michelin team even agreed to race for no points or to start behind the bridgestone teams with a chicane in place.
I think what we saw today was the childish struggle between The FIA/ferrari and the GPWC.

It was a complete disgrace.

However, this situation will never be repeated and its would be best to forget about this weekend and look forward to the rest o what still should be a thrilling season.

Besides 19 race is too much for F1 anyway :P

edit: no the problem wil not arise at monza/hockenheim because the track surface is known. the only reason the problem occurred at indy was the diamond cut track surface which michelin had not taken into account in their construction. bridgetons knew about this as they had run the indy 500.and encountered the problem in testing for that event

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2005 02:50AM by Imran.

The least you can do is to put in links so people can check your sources and see that you are not "cutting out" to fit some purpose... Even better, try and mention those parts of the article that conclude something else. Or put in the universal sign [...] write your quote here [...] meaning something was there instead of the 3 dots, but it has been removed by you.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Ok, I have two more things to add:

1- Toyota actually reduced their tyre pressure to gain more mechanical grip. It was reported that simply by raising riding height the problem could have been solved.

2- I didn't watch the Schumi/Rubinho moment, but from what my friend told me it was just Rubens braking later to try and stay ahead of Michael. True that it is obvious he had to hold back, as you can all tell how he was going faster than Michael in the race. But even if he got any closer, I don't think he'd have been able to pass, the drag from vaccuum isn't that great any longer and the cars are able to brake very late compared to other years, so even if he brought the gap to the .5 or so from earlier on, it's clear it would have been very hard to pass, since even though he was faster than Michael, Rubinho simply couldn't get enough clearance.

lol at the fact some people are analyzing the incidents in the "race".


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and people think im a fool for choosing nascar over f1...l six cars thats just wrong

well if ferrari had brought 10 cars and jordan 10 cars and minardi 10 cars
all limited in engine power and aero abiltiy, then it would be as good as a nascar/irl race

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I'm guessing you haven't been watching much Nascar Imran?
Its not about the racing specs of the cars, its about the close proximity to other drivers, taking risks to pass others, and less dependancy of having an overwhelming car to win a race.

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My Video Game Collection (Missing NES/SNES games)

well i guess Michael Schumacher alone on the track today is more intersting than a nascar race...

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NASCAR is very interesting indeed - thats what makes todays race even more of a disaster...



RedSam
Winner: Not the Nickv Comment of the Year 2009
Due to the voting system in Germany, Governments are always made up of coalitions of different parties. At the last election, an almost unprecidented result saw the CDU/CSU (rough equivilant of the Conservatives) go into Government with the SPD (rough equivilant of Labour)

Man, it´s normal such reaction because a fiasco like this one. It was terrible, for F1, for Indy fans, for everybody.
But, ahead of the circuntances, I don´t think nothing different should happened.
I mean, Michelin don´t had a tyre capable of race. With or without bank, with or without chicane, as M. Shumacher says about the talk he has with one with the Michelin runners. So...what FIA should do? allow more than half of the grid to break rules? They make the rules, they can´t allow teams to brake the rule to aid some manufacturer that made a pure and simple mistake. What Ferrari could do? They work hard to have a proper chance of victory, and because conditions out of their control they have to agree in give away a right that they have? I would say no, they don´t have to agree. Michael gives a very enfatic example, in the press conference, about the yellow flags situation at Monza...2001. Bridgestone has tyres without problems...they had nothing to do with Michelin problems.
The point is...Michelin could not race, e rightly advise the teams to not race, and rightly they take this advise.
It´s sad...it´s a @#$%&...but @#$%&´s happen...manufactures can made mistakes, and that mistake cost them a lot...but, that´s suppose to happen because a misktake.
For me, there is no reason to panic. Just work hard to prevent this to happen again, or, even more....make rules more flexible for such cases. F1 isn´t a zone, isn´t a tragedy, isn´t a amateur competition. This things don´t occur every year, every season. But, life it´s this way, accidents can happen, strange situations can happen, and for more unbelieveble that can appear, things like this can happen, especially in light of this tyre problem.
It was a big blow for F1 at USA, but, it was just a sad chain of facts that lead to this. Michelin could not find a solution, so, they should not race and that´s it.
I know most fans will not agree...it´s just my view.
I don´t see reason for panic, and I see no reason why we can´t have great future races at Indy...if people can understand this....wich it´s unlikely...