2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

Yes... all very well... however the point you're missing here and it's a big point is that the kind of team order Ferrari played here is against the regulations.

This very point pretty much voids any argument of justification for it being for the good of the team championship.

I don't think any knowledgeable observer would really argue against the logic of Ferrari's decision. But that really isn't the issue. The issue is that it's against the rules and as such can not be defended.

Alonso's biggest problem is that he takes the team-mate rivalry to the extreme. That is, if he's ahead, everything if fine between them, if not, there is tension. That's his biggest weakness.

But on the other hand, he is rarely beaten by his team mates. The cases in Renault about his complains came when he was clearly established as the fastest. Fisichella was never close to him and was easily beaten from the very beginning. Massa got the championship lead this year for a couple of weeks and didn't let Alonso pass in Melbourne, obviously. FA didn't complain. After difficult times, now Ferrari seems to be back on form. After the first 10 races, Alonso has shown he is fastest than Massa and thinks that he can win the title (or fight for it) so he now feels confident enough to start asking for special support from the team as MS did in the past.

Despite how heated the guy is, I really thing Red Bull or McLaren would do the same with Vettel or Hamilton in the same situation (difference of points with your team mate, gap to the lead and overall speed during the championship so far), simply that they would have done it better.

There is a second issue. If the positions were the opposite, Alonso wouldn't have let Massa pass, neither Hamilton or Vettel in a similar situation. I guess it is a question of status.

But there is one last thing. The last thing the Brits want is a strong ferrari because the pairing Alonso-Ferrari is quite menacing. If that incident happens with Massa 4th and Alonso 5th nobody would be here talking. There would be a few mentions, but not all these discussions, when essentially the problem is the same.

^^yep which is my point as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2010 12:14PM by marcl.

It's slightly more invisible in that scenario.

There are many brits that actually do not like Mclaren or Lewis, infact there are probably more Ferrari fans in the UK that mclaren fans.

The press just go for what ever story is there, when Lewis and Mclaren lied they were calling for their heads.

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marcl
There are many brits that actually do not like Mclaren or Lewis

I don't like many/any of the teams or drivers off the track. For example I love watching both Lewis and Alonso driving, but to me they're both cocks who've done little to enhance their reputations out of the cockpit. The actions of the past 3 years have only further cemented that opinion.

I can't be a fan of cardboard PR machines, so I do appreciate the odd shaped comment (Webber of late and Rubens last year) or display of passion (Alonso's gesture). Vettel pre-2010 seemed a great personality, yet he himself has gone down a little in my estimations. Just shows what the pressure and PR-centric nature of high profile sport does to most. It's why I liked Jean Alesi - he was never the best, but the guy always give his all and showed plenty of Latin passion both on and off the track. He excited fans. The same went for Gilles Villeneuve and to a lesser extent Ronnie Peterson.

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J i m
The issue is that it's against the rules and as such can not be defended.

Hmm. I'm not 100% confident on that one - I think Ferrari do have a ray of light on one count. To our knowledge, Ferrari didn't give Felipe a direct instruction to wave Alonso through. They expressed in no uncertain terms that's what they wanted and indeed that's what they got, but in the end it was Felipe driving the car.

Countering that, obviously Felipe himself is part of the team (or not as the case may soon be!), so is issuing himself with an order (for want of a better way of phrasing that) enough to contravene the rules, or is it enough just have it stressed to him?

Regarding article 39.1 of the sporting regulations, I think their lawyers will have a degree of leeway to defend as an order to him wasn't directly given to our knowledge.

However regarding article 151c of the sporting code, I doubt they have can offer anything in the way of defence, and for me this is the more important of the two ("[...] any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally", given that both the act and the Ferrari's handling of the aftermath is bringing the sport into disrepute.

For me as well the 2nd one is where they are going to get the penalty, that is the one Mclaren got pulled up for in Australia.

I do think Ferrari will be lucky to keep the points scored in the race. I am not sure what they will do with driver points though.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regarding article 39.1 of the sporting
> regulations, I think their lawyers will have a
> degree of leeway to defend as an order to him
> wasn't directly given to our knowledge.
>


the thing is though, the WMSC like a stewards hearing isn't a court of law.

ie the level of proof is nowhere near what would be required in an actual criminal court.

to some extent, if those present simply don't believe ferrari then thats sufficient.

but you're spot on with the disrepute bit.

the stewards have already fined them for breaking article 39.1.
i do think this is hearing is mainly about the absolute pigs ear they made of it and the damage they've done to the sports image as a result.

As I have said I have read it as they have been found guilty and are going for punishment, I could be wrong.

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marcl
I am not sure what they will do with driver points though.

They could impose a 5 second penalty on Alonso, as they did for half the drivers at Valencia, which would simply reverse the positions (Vettel was 5.1 seconds behind Alonso). However the results have been declared official, so I'm not sure they will or can alter the positions, regardless of what Adam Cooper says.

The bigger problem is Ferrari as a team, and I've been calling for them to lose their constructors points since my first post. A $100,000 fine does sod all, as would most financial penalties (look how the $100m fine affected McLaren... outwardly it didn't).

In 2009 at Australia the positions were declared but they changed them and put Truli 3rd again and removed Lewis. Brazil I am sure Kimi was declared the winner and they changed it to Fissi.

If they are going to keep the rule then they need to do more than fine the team, the only way a team/teams will learn is to really hit them hard in a none financial way but also a way they does not damage the sport more. With Ferrari this is a problem as a race ban will mean millions of people will not watch the race.

I think its enough to just remove the team points and give them a 2 year susspended ban. Now the problem for the drivers would be is if they lied, but that will be so hard to prove, with Lewis it was easy lol. All in all I think Ferrari for the most part will get away with this, i mean a loss of points and a fine is nothing really.

Ferrari are not even racing under appeal this weekend so they will not be able to affect the result there. But if the hearing is in August and a race ban is given they could miss the Italian GP, I do not think that will ever happen though.

At the moment no one knows when the hearing will be, there is one in September but they are trying to get it bought forward.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I am not sure what they will do with driver
> points though.
>
>
> They could impose a 5 second penalty on Alonso, as
> they did for half the drivers at Valencia, which
> would simply reverse the positions (Vettel was 5.1
> seconds behind Alonso). However the results have
> been declared official, so I'm not sure they will
> or can alter the positions, regardless of what
> Adam Cooper says.
>
> The bigger problem is Ferrari as a team, and I've
> been calling for them to lose their constructors
> points since my first post. A $100,000 fine does
> sod all, as would most financial penalties (look
> how the $100m fine affected McLaren... outwardly
> it didn't).

Mmmm... a penalty only for Alonso would be strange, as he has not done anything wrong. Overtaking your teammate when he slows down is not forbidden. And I still think that a penalty for them losing points is dangerous. Team orders are always given in one way or the other. That would escalate in a lot of complains and accusations between all teams for giving orders or "encrypt them" in strange messages.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hill could have been world champ in 1993 had he
> not moved over for Prost more than once.
> Eddie nearly won in 1999 due to help from 2 team
> mates, but lost due to helping MS earlier in the
> year.


Wasn't it France where if Irvine had finished 5th rather than 6th behind Schumi he would have actually been able to win the title at Suzuka

---

Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

Red Bull flexy wing thing


[www.jamesallenonf1.com]




LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

Ferrari2007 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't it France where if Irvine had finished 5th
> rather than 6th behind Schumi he would have
> actually been able to win the title at Suzuka

Yes, which was a great example of why not to do team orders too early in the season.

---

X (@ed24f1)

Ferrari2007 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> marcl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hill could have been world champ in 1993 had he
> > not moved over for Prost more than once.
> > Eddie nearly won in 1999 due to help from 2
> team
> > mates, but lost due to helping MS earlier in
> the
> > year.
>
>
> Wasn't it France where if Irvine had finished 5th
> rather than 6th behind Schumi he would have
> actually been able to win the title at Suzuka

Yep as MS would have moved over in that race as well.

LS. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red Bull flexy wing thing
>
>
> [www.jamesallenonf1.com]
> ive-red-bull-flexi-front-wing-judge-for-yourself/


Bloody hell how are they getting away with that? Are the FIA blind?

Them pics are all at the same angle its a camera that has not been moved!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2010 06:30PM by marcl.

McLaren has admitted that it has no idea how to replicate the front wing set-up currently being used by Red Bull Racing and Ferrari.

The legality of the front wings - approved by the FIA prior to the German Grand Prix - had been questioned by rival teams after close scrutiny revealed the wings, and endplates, seemingly flex up to 25mm lower to the ground at high speed, producing more downforce as a result.

McLaren's engineering director Paddy Lowe conceded that despite reviewing the flexi-wing design repeatedly, he is struggling to emulate it.

"I've seen a lot of pictures on that situation," he said. "We believe, and we're not alone, that two cars - Ferrari and Red Bull - have wings existing at a much lower position than we're able to deliver.

"It is a phenomenon we're seeing. It may be entirely legitimate, it may not be. We don't understand it."

McLaren is convinced, however, that the anomaly cannot be explained by simple set-up adjustments.

"It is a difference to a reasonably large degree," says Lowe, "so it's difficult to explain by relatively subtle effects like fuel weight, tyre pressure, or high-speed set-up. These things affect a car to a relatively small degree - much smaller than the degree we've seen in pictures.

"At the minute we are working really hard to understand it, and if it is worth performance to us, to deliver that."




[www.autosport.com]




LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2010 06:31PM by LS..

I can see some protests after the next race, no team actually put in a complaint.

1st time I have seen the pictures and I am shocked tbh.

At 1st I thought maybe its lower tyre pressures or something to make them lower, but it cannot make that much difference.

If you watch the in car cam from Germany you can see the wing go down and up again down the straight, just look at the winglets compare to the wheels and the wheels are straight.

The german gp just gets worse and worse. It is said that will give u 3ths a lap, well need I say more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2010 06:44PM by marcl.

Quote
marcl
Bloody hell how are they getting away with that? Are the FIA blind?

Because they're legal.

The tests might need to change for next season, but as things stand they're legal.