2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

SchueyFan I will find it when I get home as I am at work at the moment. If you look back at the race as well you will see Massa had a 3 second lead 4 laps before he moved over as well, he was setting fastest lap after fastest lap once he got the tyres heated up.

Massa was not on cold tyres, Alonso already had an extra lap to heat his up before he caught Massa. For me that was the chance Alonso had to pass and he did not take it Massa defended.

You can also view the lap times on line, Massa was lapping faster until he got that message then the gap between them got smaller and smaller until Alonso passed him.

Luca di Montezemolo's is the biggest hypocrit of them all tbh, thats who I was getting at in my post before. He gives it but he cannot take it. If it had been any other team that done that he would have been up in arms.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 09:26AM by marcl.

The biggest gap Massa has is 3.5 sec on lap 27. One lap before the incident the gap is 0.8 sec.

Ali Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > After the pitstops when he was pulling away from
> Alonso, he
> > was assured he could win the race if he kept
> that
> > pace up.
>
> Alonso gave some space to Massa in about 5 laps,
> after that he recovered the distance back to 1 sec
> (and pretty easy in fact). Towards the end of the
> race Vettel was just 1 sec away from Massa...
>
> > His trust in the team
> > must be severely affected now.
>
> I think Massa cannot complain to the team. Ferrari
> has given a lot of support to him. After his
> accident he has been very supported, he received
> the same kind of help from Kimi in China 2008 and
> he has been renewed for next year despite his more
> that obvious lack of performance this year, where
> he is quite far from Alonso almost everywhere. If
> Massa was 10 points behind Alonso he wouldn't have
> been told to let Alonso go.
>
> The stupid thing about team orders rule is that it
> can be violated but it has to be done in a gentile
> way...what kind of a rule is that. If Ferrari
> wants to win the championship has to give support
> to Alonso because there is no way Massa can
> recover 79 points to Hamilton in 10 races. The
> same would say McLaren or Red Bull. But they are
> too tight at the top to give any priority to
> anyone...


the thing is if they would have let Massa win he would have only been 24points from Alonso, which in old pointsystem would be that 10 points, he would have been 1 win away so in title fight as well.now it's clear they will put all powers behind Alonso, well depends what will the penalty be from WMSC.

What was the gap 2 laps before the pass? I cannot look as work block it

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What was the gap 2 laps before the pass? I cannot
> look as work block it


it was about 0,8 to 1,0 seconds for long time as Massa and Alonso did similar laptimes all the time.actually I think Massa did 0,176 faster laptime on that lap than Alonso but can't remember for sure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:14AM by vesuvius.

So Ferrari will just say Alonso was in the dirty air from Massas car and this was holiding him up and he could have gone faster then, yes its a stupid reason. Is it also right that Vettel was a constant 5.5 seconds behind them?

Seeing that Massa was only .3 slower on his fastest lap than alonso both set on the same lap shows Alonso was not that much faster and Alonso had totally clean air and was not demotivated.

We have to wait until August now to find out what will happen. I find it strange the results of Germany have been confirmed so they cannot be changed now. Sounds like if anything it will be a fine and a susspended race ban same as what Renault got, if thats all it is then it was worth taking the risk.

Would be sort of funny though if they got banned from the Italian GP lol.

I was thinking this last night, I do not think Ferrari have gained anything by replacing Kimi with Alonso tbh. I think Kimi would have made less errors this year and would probably be better placed in the championship.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:27AM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Ferrari will just say Alonso was in the dirty
> air from Massas car and this was holiding him up
> and he could have gone faster then, yes its a
> stupid reason. Is it also right that Vettel was a
> constant 5.5 seconds behind them?
>
> Seeing that Massa was only .3 slower on his
> fastest lap than alonso both set on the same lap
> shows Alonso was not that much faster and Alonso
> had totally clean air and was not demotivated.

yes vettel did do about similar or 0,1 faster laps that time so he would have neverever catched them.it doesnt really matter what will Ferrari explain, they have already been found quilty the only thing is that will they avoid more penalties...what will Jean Todt decide (he doesnt like Alonso and has said that because Alonso refused to take Ferrari testdriver role back in 2001-2002 that he will never take Alonso to Ferrari as long as he work there and he did keep his promise) on the other hand Nicholas Todt is Felipe's manager and Ferrari Todt's former employee so will see what will come out from there.


yes Alonso wouldnt have overtaken Massa that is clear because he was only 0,1 sec faster behind him (or similar) and after that "pass" about 0,2 faster .


yes it's a shame that Alonso will keep his win no matter what will happend WMSC will next time hold meeting in 10th september so unless they will keep other extra meeting then that's it were the hearing will take place. penalty can be bigger fine, pointloss or ban



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:34AM by vesuvius.

Who wants the PDF files from all GPs so far (Germany's are currently available at [www.fia.com])?

Come on!, I agree that the move was ugly and Ferrari handled it bad. Now many of you have the reason you need from time to time to criticize Alonso for it as you are doing. But Massa was clearly slower. Alonso got a good gap in a few laps after the pass and Massa was not holding up because Vettel was very close to him. Probably, without the pass, the three of them would have arrived quite close.

To me 0.3/0.4 sec is a significant difference between team-mates...

I didn't like the move when I saw it, agree and I still can't believe that Ferrari/Massa did it in that way. But what pisses me off is that now many people is claiming against team orders that Ferrari uses (and this view that Ferrari-Alonso are the devil as the brit media are portraying now) when last year Button was clearly favored versus Barrichello (and was admitted by the team if I remember correctly), Kovalainen let Hamilton pass in the same track in 2008 and Ron Dennis admitted that was the case, but saying that was Kovalainen the one who decided to do it... ... And the several issues in Turkey between Red Bull drivers and later on McLaren drivers and the misleading messages from the pit that Hamilton pointed out... So, team orders are there but you have to encode them. It is stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:41AM by Ali.

I read on the bbc that they recon it will be heard in August after the next race during the summer break.

Ali what was the point in Massa pushing after the pass? He was not going to get passed Alonso was he And yet he was still only a bit slower thats the thing.

Ron never admitted Kovy being told to let Lewis pass and Brawn never admitted to favouring Button from anything I heard or read. Kovy let Lewis pass yes but was it for the lead of a race the team were 1-2 in no. Lewis would have passed Kovy in 2008 he was that much quicker in the race and was on new tyres, the fact that even after a safety car and then a pit stop and he came out just behind says it all. Lewis then had to pass Massa and Piquet which he did so that shows just how much faster he was that day than the rest. Sunday was very different and Alonso was not 1 second faster than his team mate.

In Turkey both Lewis and Button were given lap time targets as they were both short on fuel, Button passed Lewis and Lewis passed him back. Lewis thought Button was not going to challenge him but he did but they were racing were they not? Maybe Lewis should have said he was faster all weekend and was getting held up by the rbr cars and they should have moved out the way for him Yes team orders are there i.e hold position bring the cars home or we will run out of fuel. But what ferrari done was give Alonso the win to help him in the championship one that I personally feel he has blown himself due to stupid errors in China, Monaco, Silverstone. Ferrari in Germany were getting a 1-2, Ferrari are saying you drive for the team not the individual well they did not apply that did they, they helped the one driver.

As much as the British press dont like Ferrari I am sure the Spanish press dont like Mclaren or Lewis.

Have I once blammed Alonso? no I blame ferrari.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:55AM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ali what was the point in Massa pushing after the
> pass? He was not going to get passed Alonso was he
> And yet he was still only a bit slower thats
> the thing.


Vettel ended less than a second behind, setting a few fastest laps at the end, so it is quite clear that Massa was pushing.

>
> Ron never admitted Kovy being told to let Lewis
> pass and Brawn never admitted to favouring Button
> from anything I heard or read. Kovy let Lewis
> pass yes but was it for the lead of a race the
> team were 1-2 in no. Lewis would have passed Kovy
> in 2008 he was that much quicker in the race and
> was on new tyres, the fact that even after a
> safety car and then a pit stop and he came out
> just behind says it all. Lewis then had to pass
> Massa and Piquet which he did so that shows just
> how much faster he was that day than the rest.
> Sunday was very different and Alonso was not 1
> second faster than his team mate.

But what's the difference? the fact is that Kovalainen let Hamilton pass because of the 'good' of the team and Lewis. It does not care if it was 1 second or 0.2 sec. The fact is that team orders have been there always. Barrichello was quite angry last year because Button was leading the champ so he had to support him (or I did see a different championship?).
In fact, Ferrari said it was Massa who decided to do it. The problem is that you believe in one case but not the other. And the fact that Alonso asks to his engineer at the end of the race about the possible problems that Massa had ("gearbox"?) you simply don't believe him. It is a personal issue.

> Have I once blammed Alonso? no I blame ferrari.

Jeje... come on, it is the perfect reason to start talking about him as arrogant (you talking about F1 drivers!) again, the difficult character he is (going back to 2007 and that, essentially, he is the one to blame...), the same as always. You always talk about Alonso at a personal level. I don't know Alonso, he's not my friend, nor Lewis, etc. Honestly, I don't give a s*** to how they are as persons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 11:07AM by Ali.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real reporters here in Brazil are criticizing
> both Ferrari and Massa for what happened. More
> Massa than Ferrari. They just feel he should've
> taken a stand on the whole matter and not giving
> the place up at all.

Going back to this again, I was interested to read that apparently one of the reasons Massa didn't drive for Sauber in 2003 was that he didn't let Heidfeld past in 2002 when instructed at the Nurburgring.

---

X (@ed24f1)

Did you not see how slow Alonso and Massa were crossed the line and took the last few corners? In some races drivers have a 14 second lead going into the last lap and win by 8. I never look at the last lap for a true gap, even Brundle said Vettel loves to get the fastest lap in races.

After Alonso passed Massa, Massa dropped back again what was the point in him sitting in the dirty air he was no longer racing Alonso.

Yes I think Alonso is arrogant, I always have. But have I blamed him for the change of position? NO. Do I think he deserved the win? no. I thought that about Alonso back when he started it has nothing to do with 2007, I did not even want him to go to Mclaren. I also think Alonso is over rated as a driver. I have nothing personally against Alonso, no I dont know him but I just dont like the way he is. Again I am not the only person to have said this but I am your target again, read other peoples posts not just the last page.

If Alonso had not messed up in China, Monaco, Silverstone there is every change he would be leading the championship.

Right now you are defending Ferrari's moved with the 2008 move of Lewis getting passed Kovy. You and many did not like it, but seem to think what Ferrari done was ok. Plus not many people complained in 2007 when Massa let kimi pass in China and had a longer pit stop in Brazil to let kimi get the points. Oh that was just fine yes?

If Brawn favoured Button why did they let Rubens win at Monza? Well ferrai would have moved him over as Lewis was closing in.

Yet again after Germany 2008 the FIA listened to the team radio and guess what there was no order to Kovy at all. So please tell me how you know this was a team order? Or do you just think it was?

As I said I am not blaming Alonso at all for the move. Yes for once I am not blaming him

Massa is getting the same treatment in Brazil that Rubens got when he moved over for MS.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 11:29AM by marcl.

Also, apparently the WMSC still can change the result, even though the results have already been declared official

[adamcooperf1.com]

---

X (@ed24f1)

What Luca di Montezemolo has said as well has near enough admitted Ferrari used team orders to swap the drivers round anway but giving examples of when its happened before.

"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.

"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."

He added: "Therefore enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another, but that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans."

A very silly thing to say when the team said no team orders were given.

I think the World Council can remove points etc but they cannot not now declare Vettel the winner for example, I might be wrong.

Edit. I am wrong Australia 2009 was declared and they changed the results.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 11:45AM by marcl.

The reason for the gap going up was because Alonso had a @#$%& 3 or 4 laps after he attempted to pass Massa... given Alonso's passionate nature, I can imagine it was more of a discussion on the radio saying it was "ridiculous", or him just quietly fuming (guessing we'd have heard any further discussion that didn't include swearies).

Either way, once he pulled himself together and got on with it he was consistently faster than Massa again, all the way until Massa let him through (and obviously after, as it was Massa's turn to fume).

The "ridiculous" comments though was like 2 laps after the pit stops if I remember. That was something like 20 laps before the move.

As I said I can see why Ferrari done it to get Alonso the most points, but the reason they have given is just wrong in many peoples view. Ferrari have just gone about this in the complete wrong way. Alonso probably did not even know what was going on so in a way its wrong for him to get a penalty.

The FIA have access to all the radios though so will be interesting to see what was said to Alonso if anything.

I just hope the FIA dont do what they have in the past, and that is change the rule and letting them get away with it. The loss of constructor points and a fine is enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 11:53AM by marcl.

marcl, OK, I will try not to reply to you so you'll not take it "personally".

Never mind, now it is an interesting situation: If the result is declared illegal by the FIA, this opens a new scenario. All teams use team orders but where will it be the limit? Will the widely repeated message of "save fuel" when driving behind/infront of your team mate be accepted/investigated? It can cause a major disruption for the rest of the season.

If it is declared legal, the only way I see is accepting that banning team orders is not possible as it is difficult to put a limit on what is legal or illegal or on how to demonstrate, using facts, not suppositions (although they can be very obvious) that an order was given... We'll see.

Maybe something more intermediate, as a money fine, losing the team points, a warning (something so common nowadays) ... The thing is that this comes after several steward decisions that have affected Ferrari significantly in Valencia and the exaggerated penalty to Alonso in Silverstone. If they got a big penalty for this as well, we'll see which is the Ferrari's reaction...

The problem for Ferrari is they did not appeal the race stewards verdict, I think they should have if they felt they were correct. By accepting it means they know they are at fault, well thats how I have read that and other people have as well.

Quote
marcl
The "ridiculous" comments though was like 2 laps after the pit stops if I remember. That was something like 20 laps before the move.

It was 6 laps after Massa's stop (lap 15), the attempted overtake was on lap 21, Alonso's "ridiculous" comment broadcast at the end of lap 21 (presumably said 15 seconds or so previous, after Alonso's pointless attempt on the inside) and it was when Alonso started dropping back dramatically (lap 24 was when he suddenly went 1 second slower). Lap 27 was the last time Massa was significantly quicker in that little mini-stint. From lap 28 Alonso was significantly faster for the next 10 laps until he'd caught Massa again.

Smedley's message to Massa ("Fernando is faster than you" was broadcast on lap 48 (presumably given around the start of that lap). At that point Alonso had been faster for the past 20 laps, closing a 3.4 second deficit down to following around in Massa's turbulence within 10 of those laps. Massa let Alonso through on lap 49. Smedley's "Good lad. Just stick with him. Sorry" message broadcast on lap 50.