2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

In lap 28 there is a team radio comm. for Massa where Smedley tells him: "Gap is 3 sec. keep going, you can win" (or similar). So the fact that Alonso recovered that gap in about 10 laps is probably the reason they decided to switch positions. It may be some kind of a "test"? If Massa would have been capable of keeping the gap probably he would have been allowed to win :-S

But that gap closing does not take into account the fact that massa lost over a second lapping cars.

I still feel its up to alonso to close the gap and try and pass him, sorry but thats just my view on racing.

If he got close and tried to pass and Massa let him pass then whatever but not do it like they done it alonso was still 08 behind him at the start of the lap massa let him pass. So in 9 laps alonso closed the gap by 2.5 seconds 1 of them lost lapping cars.

Alonso really was not that much faster was he.

I mean come on we all know why they swapped them around done we

We can go over it again and again but it was to give Alonso the extra points. Kimi won in 2007 due to team mate help, Lewis in 2008 due to team mate help, eddie lost and nearly won 1999 due to team mate help and helping a team mate lol. Even Mika won 1998 due to team mate help, and then nearly lost 1999 due to the same team mate

Tbh I am not as angry about it now as I was at the time, it was just the after race stuff that really annoyed me all the cover up etc.

Maybe they will just get rid of the rule, but even if they do fans will still not be happy as they want to see racing not place swapping. Its a no win situation really.

I think MS said it the best way tbh.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 02:18PM by marcl.

I felt for Schumacher in some ways. He looked a bit embarrassed by it all, but cleary he couldn't criticise Ferrari for it because he's been the benifit of those manoeuvres several times in the past and obviously he still feels loyal to them.

I hear the rule may be relaxed a little, but I hope they don't get rid of it altogether and stipulate that it can only be done if the other driver is mathematically out of the championship fight.

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marcl
I still feel its up to alonso to close the gap and try and pass him, sorry but thats just my view on racing.

I think most of us feel the same.

I still find it quite interesting that some drivers don't though, especially those who have been victims in the past.

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marcl
Alonso really was not that much faster was he.

He closed by around 2-4 tenths on the laps he caught Massa, and that's not including those laps where Massa encountered traffic. That's not a million miles from the speed advantage Alonso showed in qualifying (5 tenths). So yeah, he was faster... by quite a bit.

Closing your teammate who has identical (indeed slightly fresher) tyres from 3.5 seconds down to zero over 10 laps is the very definition of faster.

Yeah I agree there, but again when your leading from your team mate do you really push 100%? I do not know what goes through a drivers mind tbh. Do u push 100% or leave a little in reserve not to make an error etc. But we also have to remember that for 2 of them laps massa slowed down to let Alonso pass. Again I can not view the lap times leading up to it.

The whole reason for the swap though was to protect the 1-2 finish am I right? Which many people say and feel was not under any threat from Vettel if the Ferraris kept going at the pace they were. Were they even both running flat out or were the engines already turned down?

They are the things that will probably be looked at.

Mclaren turned their engies down as they new 4th and 5th was the best they could get.

And yes MS did look a bit funny infront of the camera when asked them questions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 02:49PM by marcl.

gav Wrote:
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> He closed by around 2-4 tenths on the laps he
> caught Massa, and that's not including those laps
> where Massa encountered traffic. That's not a
> million miles from the speed advantage Alonso
> showed in qualifying (5 tenths). So yeah, he was
> faster... by quite a bit.
>
> Closing your teammate who has identical (indeed
> slightly fresher) tyres from 3.5 seconds down to
> zero over 10 laps is the very definition of
> faster.

But Massa was able to pull away similarly after the fuel stops. As Marcl said above, we don't know what engine settings, fuel mixes etc. Massa and Alonso was on. Presumably they didn't just decide to swap them on the lap the move was made, so they may well have set it up by instructing Massa to turn his engine down.

Yes, Alonso was probably a bit faster, but I don't think speed had anything to do with the move in the end.

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X (@ed24f1)

We will have to wait to find out the truth tbh.

not only are fans,media and other teams angry with Ferrari , so are bookmakers, they have had to pay lots of lots of money back to the ones who had bet Massa to win because they complained about this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 03:30PM by vesuvius.

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marcl
Yeah I agree there, but again when your leading from your team mate do you really push 100%?

Smedley told him a few laps earlier to get on with it and build a gap.

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marcl
But we also have to remember that for 2 of them laps massa slowed down to let Alonso pass.

Nope, this was still 10 laps before 'that conversation'.

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SchueyFan
But Massa was able to pull away similarly after the fuel stops.

Massa only pulled away from Alonso after Alonso's failed overtake when he was either screaming at the team or quietly fuming... I guess the former. It wasn't Massa going quickly, it was Alonso falling back.

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SchueyFan
Yes, Alonso was probably a bit faster, but I don't think speed had anything to do with the move in the end.

Unfortunately I agree. I say unfortunately - fortune had nothing to do with it.

vesuvius Wrote:
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> not only are fans,media and other teams angry with
> Ferrari , so are bookmakers, they have had to pay
> lots of lots of money back to the ones who had bet
> Massa to win because they complained about this.

Same thing happened in 2002 with Austria and 1998 Australia. I remember DC saying at the time more fool people who bet on the result lol. They agreed to pay out for DC and Mika winning due to complaints.

Tbh though why do they pay out, if people have said Massa will win and he does not thats just tough luck. They dont pay out if a team lose in football due to an own goal do they

gav Wrote:
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>
>
> Massa only pulled away from Alonso after Alonso's
> failed overtake when he was either screaming at
> the team or quietly fuming... I guess the former.
> It wasn't Massa going quickly, it was Alonso
> falling back.
>


it was Massa going quickly actually as he did fastes laps after fastest laps but yes Alonso also did slow down a bit like said Fernando was faster on harder tyres than Massa ( on softer not) but only about 0,1 to 0,25 seconds so not enough to overtake him at all ...the only way he got a chance to overtake earlier in the race was lapped cars who slowed Massa much more than Alonso.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 04:14PM by vesuvius.

^And the fact Alonso lost his head yet again, its a big weakness of his.

marcl Wrote:
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> ^And the fact Alonso lost his head yet again, its
> a big weakness of his.


yup it has happened so many times during this season and earlier as well...but it's in his blood

It was the same with JPM, Senna and many others though. Once other drivers learn how to push the buttons they use it to their advantage.

It is not really a problem if they learn to control it, Senna did in the end but early on he did not. It does produce some good racing though, but can be a flaw.

The 1st time I think we ever saw it with Alonso was in Canada when he was stuck behind Fissi, he then hit the wall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 04:24PM by marcl.

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vesuvious
it was Massa going quickly actually as he did fastes laps after fastest laps

You expect to get faster and faster this season though. Massa's speed didn't improve - it was just the linear line you'd expect. Meanwhile Alonso's pace dropped off the radar (along with his head by the looks of things).

The thing is this time unlike Valencia he sorted himself out and then got on with it. He also probably saved fuel and tyres which is why he could then go faster.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 04:27PM by marcl.

gav Wrote:
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> > it was Massa going quickly actually as he did
> fastes laps after fastest laps
>
>
> You expect to get faster and faster this season
> though. Massa's speed didn't improve - it was just
> the linear line you'd expect. Meanwhile Alonso's
> pace dropped off the radar (along with his head by
> the looks of things).

true but after Alonso had "passed" Felipe, also Felipe's laptimes dropped a lot and from 60 to 67 laps he and Alonso did similar laptimes (and yes Alonso was also pushing)

oh and btw when Alonso catched that 3,5 second gap to 1,0 second and bit under sometimes, yes he was doing clearly faster laptimes than felipe but when he had catched him, Felipe suddenly improved his laptimes about 1 second /lap from above 1,18 to a bit above 1,17 (laptimes that were as fast and faster than Alonso's)...why? that would tell he had controlled his pace.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 04:42PM by vesuvius.

Bernie supports Ferrari's decision. Bernie's also a member of the WMC, chances are Ferrari will get off clean and Alonso will continue to lie.

Bernie does not have much say though, Ferrari have already been found guilty they are going there to get their punishment the way I see it. The WMC will have to find the race stewards wrong in order not to punish them.

Who cares what Luca thinks. Does anyone in the paddock actually listen to him anymore?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL