2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

agree with you guys, its one big mess. and what happened to missing 3 gears that rob said in a quote? and then hard tyre probs?

overall in the race it was fairly clear to me that fernando was faster. ant davidson said that when you get to within 2 seconds of the car in front, you get the dirty air from that car and your laptime suffers. fernando was for a good number of laps within 0.8-1 seconds from massa and could hold that pace quite easily. no doubt in clear air he could have and did go faster. it wasnt by much though.

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The other reason is due to the way he and the team carried on after Valencia when someone broke the rules got a penalty but it did not go the way they wanted.


Well no. He moaned in Valencia correctly. Rules were broken, and not only was the FIA not about to punish anyone, they were not even paying attention enough to notice. By the time it was rightly brought to the stewards attention, they penalised far too late, and the penalty was worthless. The stewards incompetence meant that those who followed the rules were penalised more than those who broke them, and the punishment had no effect. Alonso was 100% correct to complain about that. He wasn't complaining about Lewis, he was complaining about how poor it was that any driver could do that and nobody even noticed, nevermind took action.

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Well the truth as we all know what happend will come out in front of World motorsport council because Ferrari has to tell the truth in there (finally!) if they will lie yet again they will be banned for sure.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> The other reason is due to the way he and the team
> carried on after Valencia when someone broke the
> rules got a penalty but it did not go the way they
> wanted.
>
>
> Well no. He moaned in Valencia correctly. Rules
> were broken, and not only was the FIA not about to
> punish anyone, they were not even paying attention
> enough to notice. By the time it was rightly
> brought to the stewards attention, they penalised
> far too late, and the penalty was worthless. The
> stewards incompetence meant that those who
> followed the rules were penalised more than those
> who broke them, and the punishment had no effect.
> Alonso was 100% correct to complain about that. He
> wasn't complaining about Lewis, he was complaining
> about how poor it was that any driver could do
> that and nobody even noticed, nevermind took
> action.

the reason why it took so long from stewards was that they didn't have the camera angle to judge from and Bernd Maylander couldn't see it from the safety car which one did overtake the line first.Finally they found a camerashot that showed it and they did give an penalty.Safety car overtook the line just 0,060 before Hamilton so if Hamilton wouldnt have slowed down just before he would have avoided the whole penalty (from auto-motor und sport and Turun Sanomat)

It will be interesting to hear what was said to Alonso over the radio.

marcl Wrote:
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> The only winner out of all this is Massa, people
> now feel sorry for him.

No, Massa is not a winner out of this. Just like Webber in Turkey, an element of doubt in his team must now enter his mind. Furthermore, he seems to need confidence to drive well, and this was about as bad a confidence hit as you can get.

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X (@ed24f1)

the reason why it took so long from stewards was that they didn't have the camera angle to judge from and Bernd Maylander couldn't see it from the safety car which one did overtake the line first.Finally they found a camerashot that showed it and they did give an penalty.

Sorry, I don't believe that for several obvious reasons. Had they seen it, they'd have put the investigation into swing and it'd have been on the bottom of the screen. There was no investigation at all, meaning they weren't even looking for views of it. Nothing was being done until Alonso pointed out the violation.

Second, the facilities the directors have is vast. They manage to come up with 10 different angles of an accident within seconds of it happening. But yet it took them half the race to find the helicam? Sorry, I don't buy that.

The stewards @#$%& up. They weren't even paying attention to the safety car violations by most of the drivers. Lewis was only penalised because another driver noticed it, and after that they figured now that they were paying attention they should punish those who broke the delta too. That wasn't even being looked at until the Lewis incident was brought up.

Lewis could have should have avoided the penalty. But he sits too low in the car to see the exact position of the line, and whilst in an ideal world everybody knows the rule book inside and out, the drivers don't know all of this stuff, and certainly asking them to bring it up whilst in the heat of the moment is unfair. Whilst Lewis broke the rules, that was an understandable mistake, and not done in order to gain an advantage, even if he did end up with one.

The reason Alonso moaned wasn't cheating, it was the stewards not doing there job correctly. I fully agree that after the race manipulation comments from Alonso after that race and now the manipulation of the German GP that it is quite funny, and very relevant, but the point Alonso was making in Valencia was not that it didn't go his way, but rather than general incompetence form the stewards that day at sorting out the safety car mess.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 03:53PM by DaveEllis.

btw, maybe Ferrari just hoped Alonso would get past Massa in the pitstops. It seemed odd to me at the time that Alonso was allowed to pit first - usually its the first driver on track that gets preference.


EDIT: Just a clarification about Brazil 2007 and China 2008. Apparently Mosley made clear when the rule was announced that it would not apply in these situations (i.e. closing stages of championship). Source: [adamcooperf1.com]

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X (@ed24f1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 04:00PM by SchueyFan.

As I said previous, I expect and will accept this later on in the season.

The whole point about this is why... why so early?

As I said, I hope Alonso suffers a number of engine failures from now if only to show Ferrari they cant tell the future!

Nothing is certain in F1 but if Ferrari want to push with 1 driver so early I really urge Mclaren to push Lewis and RBR to push Vettel!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Former world champion Niki Lauda was critical of Ferrari's decision, labelling the race a fraud for the fans.

"An obvious and unacceptable episode of team orders. People buy tickets to see the best man win. What has happened is a fraud against the spectators," Lauda was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport.

"The Ferrari team was providing a superlative performance. Why did they want to ruin this way what would have been a perfect victory? Fernando has talked such nonsense that I've never heard before. He has shown he has no character."

MS has backed up his old team saying its ok. There are very mixed views on what happened.

chet escribió:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I said previous, I expect and will accept this
> later on in the season.
>
> The whole point about this is why... why so
> early?
>
> As I said, I hope Alonso suffers a number of
> engine failures from now if only to show Ferrari
> they cant tell the future!
>
> Nothing is certain in F1 but if Ferrari want to
> push with 1 driver so early I really urge Mclaren
> to push Lewis and RBR to push Vettel!


maybe they're exaggerately confident in Alonso over Massa and think that Felipe won't perform as well as he is expected should he be in the title battle.

or maybe it's just that they saw Vettel closing in in such a way that if he was to catch a Ferrari, they'd better had the other one way ahead of them for the race leadership to remain secure.

AcE_cOdEr Wrote:
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> or maybe it's just that they saw Vettel closing in
> in such a way that if he was to catch a Ferrari,
> they'd better had the other one way ahead of them
> for the race leadership to remain secure.

Vettel was not catching the Ferraris.

"In the ten laps leading up to the change of position [the gap between Alonso and Vettel] remained static at 5.1 seconds." [www.f1fanatic.co.uk]

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X (@ed24f1)

Ferrari did the right thing... Massa will never be champion

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NeoLiot; I see that you are from Brazil, what has the media reaction been like over there?

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X (@ed24f1)

thats abit harsh, he was a few hundred metres away from being champ in 2008

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The real reporters here in Brazil are criticizing both Ferrari and Massa for what happened. More Massa than Ferrari. They just feel he should've taken a stand on the whole matter and not giving the place up at all.

To be honest, I said this in another thread, this season is one of the worst I've seen. It's so bad and boring that I haven't watched the last few races at all. Only saw the results.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real reporters here in Brazil are criticizing
> both Ferrari and Massa for what happened. More
> Massa than Ferrari. They just feel he should've
> taken a stand on the whole matter and not giving
> the place up at all.

That's disappointing, but not overly surprising. I don't know how you can blame Massa more than Ferrari firstly. What was he supposed to do? If he didn't do it, he would have seriously undermined his position in the team. However, by them asking him to do this, that has already happened to an extent.


> To be honest, I said this in another thread, this
> season is one of the worst I've seen. It's so bad
> and boring that I haven't watched the last few
> races at all. Only saw the results.

I'm surprised that you say that, because we've had quite a few very good races (Montreal, Melbourne, China, Turkey for example) - and there are several drivers in contention.

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X (@ed24f1)

vesuvius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well the truth as we all know what happend will
> come out in front of World motorsport council
> because Ferrari has to tell the truth in there
> (finally!) if they will lie yet again they will be
> banned for sure.


what truth m8? lol, it's so evident... i love Ferrari, and i feel gutted about yesterday.. i hope the president of the counscil doesn't even start the session, as soon as they enter, read them the veredict...

i think ferrari will be stripped of constructors points but drivers allowed to keep their points and fine icnreased to say $1 million.

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SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's disappointing, but not overly surprising. I
> don't know how you can blame Massa more than
> Ferrari firstly. What was he supposed to do? If he
> didn't do it, he would have seriously undermined
> his position in the team. However, by them asking
> him to do this, that has already happened to an
> extent.

Well, the problem is this is really just Austria 2002 all over again for the Brazilians. I don't really like the dude, but Massa was certainly on the right track of erasing the notions that Brazilians in a Ferrari were always going to play second fiddle. After last weekend he certainly brought the whole thing back. Massa is no victim in this. He knew what was at stake there and could've at least approached the whole thing in a better way. I don't know how, but it could be done.

>
> > To be honest, I said this in another thread,
> this
> > season is one of the worst I've seen. It's so
> bad
> > and boring that I haven't watched the last few
> > races at all. Only saw the results.
>
> I'm surprised that you say that, because we've had
> quite a few very good races (Montreal, Melbourne,
> China, Turkey for example) - and there are several
> drivers in contention.

Is several drivers in contention a good thing though? I dunno. When that happens it's one of two things: Either teams are very balanced and the drivers are all performing superbly, or everyone is making tons of mistakes. 2010 feels like the latter. And to me that really doesn't scream excellency from the drivers involved. What drew me back in to Formula 1 in 2005 was watching top drives, every weekend from Alonso and Raikkonen. In 2006 we had top drivers from Alonso and Schumacher. 2007 Alonso/Raikkonen/Hamilton and sometimes Massa.

Anyway, I watched the races you mentioned and indeed some were very good. But if there isn't any real tension on the championship front it all gets boring very fast.