2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AcE_cOdEr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > or maybe it's just that they saw Vettel closing
> in
> > in such a way that if he was to catch a
> Ferrari,
> > they'd better had the other one way ahead of
> them
> > for the race leadership to remain secure.
>
> Vettel was not catching the Ferraris.
>
> "In the ten laps leading up to the change of
> position remained static at 5.1 seconds."
> [www.f1fanatic.co.uk]
> ressuring-ferraris-ahead-of-switch-german-grand-pr
> ix-analysis/

Ferrari are saying that Massa and Alonso would have held each other up and allowed Vettel to close, that is their reason. Even though Vettel could not even keep up with them on lap 1 in the slip stream



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 06:09PM by marcl.

From Christian Vine, received on e-mail (thanks to some contacts!)


From: Vine, Christian <@ferrari.com>
Sent: Sun Jul 25 15:43:52 2010
Subject: Ferrari Takes 1-2 in Germany!
Dear Friends,

A fantastic result today for us after a lot of hard work improving the car, today Fernando and Felipe brought home a perfect 1-2 finish. The result was made even more pleasing by the fact that the gap to our main rivals was significant so its very encouraging and means we should be able to put up a great fight in the second half of what has become one of the closest F1 seasons in modern history.

As some of you may know, we also received a penalty which does not change the result of the race in any way however the Stewards were unhappy that Felipe did not aggressively defend against being overtaken by Fernando towards the end of the race. The rules on this point state that the drivers must race until then end.

I just want to take a moment to explain this issue to you as its a complex one. I can tell you that there is no favouritism at Ferrari. If anything, the team's loyalty to Felipe is greatest because of the many seasons he has raced for us. The fact of the matter is that Fernando at that stage of the race was quicker, which we told Felipe and its then up to them both to find a way to get the maximum out of both of their cars without crashing into each other, as in fact happened at RedBull a few weeks ago.

Both our drivers are intelligent and sensible guys and they know very well that to attack each other would serve no purpose at all and risk making the team look very foolish and out of control. At the same time we were under pressure from Vettel in 3rd so it would also be foolish for one of the Ferrari's to go slower than it was capable of, this is why we informed Felipe that Fernando had more pace. But as they are both Ferrari drivers, Fernando did not attempt to attack his team mate from behind and nor did Felipe attempt to close the door on Fernando as the net result for Ferrari could have been disaster. This is honestly why we spend so much money on drivers who are at the top of their game. We need them using their brains as well as going fast - we don't want them acting like out of control teenagers.

In the end they both did a great job of securing a 1-2, whilst defending against Vettel in the RedBull. For that reason, we are happy tonight as a team; happy that we have a team which is working as one - and this is the only way to win World Championships, as we know from long experience. Tonight we celebrate a great result and wish you all the best as we hope to keep this up in the coming races.

I attach to this email a small picture of the reaction of our two drivers straight out of the car...they know what a hard won victory this was for everyone at Ferrari today.

Forza Scuderia!




________________________________________
Christian Vine
Direzione Commerciale & Brand






Blablablabla.....

Can someone please explain then what took place earlier in the race when it looked like alonso was willing to attack and massa to block

I like this line "This is honestly why we spend so much money on drivers who are at the top of their game. We need them using their brains as well as going fast - we don't want them acting like out of control teenagers."

So having a strop on the radio and waving your arm out the car is acting grown up is it lol.

And this line "A fantastic result today for us after a lot of hard work improving the car, today Fernando and Felipe brought home a perfect 1-2 finish. The result was made even more pleasing by the fact that the gap to our main rivals was significant so its very encouraging and means we should be able to put up a great fight in the second half of what has become one of the closest F1 seasons in modern history."

So if they had a gap to their rivals why swap the drivers around.

From this page, however I dont know the full article or what Alonso said in complete but ....

To the Spanish press, Alonso argued: "The ones who pay us are the team, not the newspapers or anyone else, and now Ferrari is taking 43 points back to Italy.



Firstly - What would have changed if Massa won? Nothing. 43 points.

"And that is what we have to do -- what is best for the team. On Friday I was faster, I was second in qualifying and faster than Felipe in the race. I don't think the slower driver won this race," he added.

For the team, or for himself? For the team, it works out no different, the same amount of points HOWEVER they now have a defined a #1 and #2 and they have a driver who is low on confidence in the team and who's head is probably as low as it can get. A driver who was on a turn-around race for his season who has gone the complete wrong direction (or directed in the wrong direction ) and now has to accept he is not allowed to win this years WDC. He has to accept he is now Ferrari's lap dog to Alonso, and he has to accept that depsite Ferrari's promises, he is a #2 driver.

Then he mentions speed...

"I was quicker in this session blahblah."

What's the first thing you can say to that? Well. Who cares, what does it matter? Fact is Alonso was second in race, and NOT significantly faster. Fact is Alonso can quote FP and Qualifying times all he wants but it was Sunday, when the points are rewarded where he was behind. Often the fastest driver doesnt win.... He should grow some f*cking balls admit his wrongs about it. He should admit that the situation worked out for himself and that it is uncertain whether or not it helped the team more or less.

I hate that this incident will not be sorted for a long while. My hope for 2010... Alonso's gets shown home by Vettel and Lewis bigtime, and if they're up to it, Jenson and Webber! The guy is a complete coward. I had alot of respect for both Alonso and Stefano but now I realize both men have zero respect for others so how can I respect them?

As I said,I dont have the full article from ALonso, so my judgements are based on that.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Alonso just does not get it, yes he may have been faster but Massa was ahead of him thats how it works out sometimes it does not mean massa has to move over due to the fact alonso was faster in quali and free practice.

Alonso has made so many errors himself this year which is why he finds himself so far back in the points, alonso also messed up massa at Silverstone and risked both cars in China. It would have been so easy for massa to have crashed into him.

He is really showing himself to be more arrogant than I thought he was. Well Ferrari did say they would be able to control Alonso better than what Mclaren did, well we can see how they are willing to do it now.

The thing is though I still do not blame him for what happened, but he should stop making comments now as its getting worse and worse.

Edit.

Tbh I am thinking about this far to much and as much as I do not like what happened it does happen so no more on it from me.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 08:20PM by marcl.

"Is something wrong with Felipe's gearbox?"

Such bullsh*t question from Alonso when passing Massa. By the way, in 2002 Massa was asked by Sauber to let Heidfeld pass him for 6th in Nürburgring. He refused to do it and was in trouble. Less than a month later he was forced to let Nick through to get 6th, and we all know he got released that year.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He is really showing himself to be more arrogant
> than I thought he was. Well Ferrari did say they
> would be able to control Alonso better than what
> Mclaren did, well we can see how they are willing
> to do it now.


Brilliant!!!

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Just one last thing, it turns out Massa was given that message 2 laps before he slowed down. At the time he was actually lapping faster than Alonso and had a near 4 second lead, this is why Ferrari have been reported.

The stuff coming out of Ferrari is making me laugh, its worse than that guy that reported in the Iraq war And yes I know Mclaren are not clean, but they got punished for it.

If they give it they need to learn how to take it, but they never seem able to take what people have to say.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 10:56PM by marcl.

if u look at all the team orders incidents we know of since 2002, ferrari have been involved in 2, mclaren in 2 and renault in 1. only 2 of thoise happened mid season, the rest towards the end.

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Another reason Massa must be feeling screwed is the way he was seemingly led on. After the pitstops when he was pulling away from Alonso, he was assured he could win the race if he kept that pace up. To be told that, and then to effectively be told to move over not many laps later, has to be particularly soul-destroying; that's what will have really got to him IMO. His trust in the team must be severely affected now.

---

Was felipe given cold tyres at the pitstop? He struggled really bad for a lap or so on his new tyres (which leads me to believe they needed drastic heating up)

_______________________________________________________________________

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another reason Massa must be feeling screwed is
> the way he was seemingly led on. After the
> pitstops when he was pulling away from Alonso, he
> was assured he could win the race if he kept that
> pace up. To be told that, and then to effectively
> be told to move over not many laps later, has to
> be particularly soul-destroying; that's what will
> have really got to him IMO. His trust in the team
> must be severely affected now.

It was Rob that was telling him he could win the race though. Judging by Robs tone of voice when he asked Massa to move over, he didn't know it was coming either. I suspect it was a complete surprise to both Massa and Smedley.

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I think that, if ferrari wanted Alonso to overtake Massa, they should give another message to driver, one not that obvious (because i´m stupid, and i don´t know that "mmm, Felipe, Alonso is faster than you, do you UNDERSTAND?" "good boy, SORRY" means that Felipe must left his place to Alonso...), like...

"Felipe, i think that we haven´t got not enougth fuel to reach the final laps of the race, i think you should start to save fuel..."

Maybe you guys can be more creative than me...

Whatever, i think that in some point of the Championship, a team must choose a driver to fight the title, and the another one must help him. The point is, was this moment the rigth one?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 02:08AM by Thunderknight.

I can imagine that Smedley and Massa may have been given a little 'you are compromising your positions in
the team' or something like that...I don't know.

This year there has been too much emphasis on teams not being completely happy. Especially at Hockenheim as the race was quite dull. But if teams break rules that are there, make an example of them. $100,000 isn't a massive amount in Ferrari's book, so something harsher is needed. Drop some places. Happens again? Ban 'em. I'm not saying I agree with the rule but it's there to be adhered to.

Luca di Montezemolo's calling the FIA hypocrites. Trust him to throw his toys out the pram, as he's already condemned the new teams.

This is all making horrible smells in the background (unless Bernie, in his old age is at the stage of incontinence), and it needs to be killed and buried before we get more problems.

---

GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was Rob that was telling him he could win the
> race though. Judging by Robs tone of voice when he
> asked Massa to move over, he didn't know it was
> coming either. I suspect it was a complete
> surprise to both Massa and Smedley.

Definitely agree there. I've never heard Rob sound gutted on the radio before like he did when he apologised either. There seems to be a fair amount of discord going on within Ferrari at the moment.

---

but that must've been discussed before the race i guess

i mean that message doesn't specifically says "Move over for Alonso". Massa is not stupid and he could've finished the race pretending to be stupid and not get the message.. unless of course they agree before the race in the even that such circumstance would take place... based on his recent performances and his place on the grid he could've agreed to it not knowing he was going to be leading the race in T1 and after the pits tops, knowing that it was going to be quite hard to beat the 2 cars in front and Webber behind.

it would be fun if Massa starts performing for the next races and outracing Alonso... and then at the end those 7 points could cost him a lot more.. something he was winning on his own merit!

Hungary should be exciting.... andiamo Felipe!!!!

Smedley is a great guy, him and Massa get along very well and Rob was clearly unhappy with his situation. And everyone knows the radio transmissions take place some 40s-90s before we hear them.

how do you see felippe performing better than alonso
(p.s. i am absolutely neutral between those two)
i cant remember a race this season where felippe was faster ? and there were a couple of races he really drives well at
turkey, monaco, valencia , bahrain spain. even schumacher who is a big friend of felippe said that this was right decision from ferrari. and massa is also to blame about all the problems.
just like rubens many years ago, massa did the "letting by" pretty obvious and unnacceptable. rubens was told to let schumacher about 5 laps before the end of the race and we all know what he did.
massa could simply let allonso close and then make a "mistake" on the run to the long straight and that is. anyway

he also performs well at hungary so lets him there
and of course lets see mercedes. the last time they introduced upgrades was for the European gp and it was a full disaster. on the nex race they have already understood the new parts and the result was there with nico's podium.
again they couldnt make their new parts work at hockenheim,but hungary should be better. GO MICHAEEEELL !!!!!
PS. schumacher makes such a great great starts. i really want him to start in top 5 and then maybe.... rocket himself to the lead :D
there's always hope , although this season for MERC reminds me a lot of ferraris 2005, which ended .....disastrously

matt3454 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was felipe given cold tyres at the pitstop? He
> struggled really bad for a lap or so on his new
> tyres (which leads me to believe they needed
> drastic heating up)

Maybe, but I think Felipe is just struggling to warm the hard tyres up this year - and he was under a lot of pressure from Alonso at that moment.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just one last thing, it turns out Massa was given
> that message 2 laps before he slowed down. At the
> time he was actually lapping faster than Alonso
> and had a near 4 second lead, this is why Ferrari
> have been reported.

I don't think that can be right - I don't think the gap was that high in the few laps before the crash - more like 1.5 or 2 at most.

Do you have a source for that article?

---

X (@ed24f1)

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After the pitstops when he was pulling away from Alonso, he
> was assured he could win the race if he kept that
> pace up.

Alonso gave some space to Massa in about 5 laps, after that he recovered the distance back to 1 sec (and pretty easy in fact). Towards the end of the race Vettel was just 1 sec away from Massa...

> His trust in the team
> must be severely affected now.

I think Massa cannot complain to the team. Ferrari has given a lot of support to him. After his accident he has been very supported, he received the same kind of help from Kimi in China 2008 and he has been renewed for next year despite his more that obvious lack of performance this year, where he is quite far from Alonso almost everywhere. If Massa was 10 points behind Alonso he wouldn't have been told to let Alonso go.

The stupid thing about team orders rule is that it can be violated but it has to be done in a gentile way...what kind of a rule is that. If Ferrari wants to win the championship has to give support to Alonso because there is no way Massa can recover 79 points to Hamilton in 10 races. The same would say McLaren or Red Bull. But they are too tight at the top to give any priority to anyone...