2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

i agree they totally messed up in trying to cover up. im sure there were better ways of getting alosno past. even my 8 year old nephew understoof what "fernando is faster than you" meant.

as harsh as it may be for massa, bringing the sport into disrepute, remember what happened to lewis in aus, stripped of all race points if i recall. noy sure ehats worse, deliberately lying to stewards to get an opponent demoted a place, or deliberatly lying to cover your arse over team orders.

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rapid_f1 Wrote:
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> if ferrari had done it another way, say with a
> proper coded message, and massa had gone wide at a
> corner locking brakes and allowing alonsi through,
> would that have been more palatable?

But however they orchestrated it, it still would've been pretty obvious to us what was going on. So, nope.

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EC83 Wrote:
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> Today we were denied the chance to see Massa
> return to the top step of the podium when he was
> all set to, because of team orders, one year to
> the day after he nearly lost his life. For that
> reason alone(apart from anything else) I'm gutted,
> and see this as a bad day for the sport.


And for that reason alone you would expect Ferrari to have some heart! Even in a WDC fight!

Massa let Alonso through in the best possible way. The only way better would have been do what Rubens did, at wait until the last min.

If he "made a mistake and went wide" then some would have taken it as it was and said he made a mistake, but he's clever. If he's gonna let Alonso through, hes going show the world he is doing that exactly, and that Alonso did not get past with his own steam or on the back of Massa's mistake !

Agreed with people about covering it up! Its made it look far worse! And it's put the team at greater risk! I guess the circumstances of Lewis and Mclaren lying and slightly different (i guess worse!) but something should be done about the team lying to millions of viewers worldwide and of course hundreds of thousands who paid for a ticket.

edit - there we go, that would be my punishment ... Ferrari should refund every paid ticket for this weekend and get their points deducted from only this race :p

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 06:18AM by chet.

why have a rule if it doesn't matter if you break it?

matt3454 Wrote:
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> As with any other sport, spaniards always resort
> to cheating to win.


Sorry guy, but this is unacceptable...
Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Basketball team, football team, FC Barcelona, Nadal...you should rectify

MysticalCrayon Wrote:
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> why have a rule if it doesn't matter if you break it?

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Only Ferrari seem capable and ALLOWED to break it, because the FIA president used to be at Ferrari!

Its not really Alonso that cheated though is it. I blame Ferrari more than Alonso, Alonso was moaning etc but Ferrari should have said pass him then like Mclaren did in 2007. I think the way this year has gone with things in Valencia and now this we can see why 2007 ended the way it did. Alonso feels he should be the driver leading if the team are running 1-2. He is really not showing himself in a good light tbh.

As I said though what I dont like is them trying to cover it up and the way Massa changed his story from the press confence straight after the race to the interviews out of the press room. In the press room it was clear he had to give way you could see it in his face and the words he used, this then changed to I made my own mind up etc.

I feel bad for Massa, but I think the whole team should lose their points from the race like Lewis did in 2009. I really see no difference they are all lying and covering up. Alonso yet again says he new nothing about what was going on, I find that so hard to believe tbh. I am sure all the team radios will be heard and then the FIA can work out what to do.

Also I think the stewards need to talk to Vettel about his starts, he should not be moving over like that and then slowing down as much as he does in the 1st corner. Button has said it caused him to lose places and Lewis said in Silversone Vettel slowed down far to much. It wont be long until something goes wrong.

Yes, the issue was solved in a clumsy way. I really think that most of the teams (McLaren and Red Bull included) would have done the same in the same circumstances, but probably in a decent way. I don't think anyone believes that Massa has a chance to beat Alonso in the final standings but what I can't believe is that the team did something so stupid like sending those messages "thanks" and so on...unbelievable. Aloso Massa, who seems to be the "innocent" one, didn't have so many problems doing that back in 2006 with Schumacher, when he clearly assumed his n2 role (yes, was the newcomer, but team orders were already banned)...

So this confirms a few things:
- Ferrari has lost a lot of style playing strategies.
- Team orders cannot be banned because of the very essential meaning of the word "Team".
- Massa is not very intelligent; the move could have been done in a more decent way (having such a long straight, just going a little bit slow after the turn before the straight would have been easier and, although obvious, less suspicious), but instead, he did what he did when he wanted and probably knowing that this would cause problems for the team.
- Alonso is always on the spot and this is the perfect example. The press is blaming him for what happened yesterday, not really Ferrari...curious.

I don't remember so many problems when this happened in 2008:


&feature=related



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 11:16AM by Ali.

The problem now days for Ferrari is that we can hear what is being said, back in 2006 we could not.

It does not matter how Massa let him pass tbh the damage had been done with what was said on the radio.

The press were not actually blaming Alonso at all, they were asking how he could be happy with winning like that. As I said I blame ferrari for what happened just like I did in 2002. But what people are not liking is the Alonso attitude and thats why he is being made the target by many. They have been caught out now anyway and we just have to wait and see what happens. I do have a feeling the FIA are going to come down hard on them though simply due to comments over the past few weeks as well. I mean after all Alonso does not like an manipulated GP does he . I did not know that ferrari were up for 2 things, breaking the rules and bringing the sport into disripute.

I am trying to remember in 2006 when Massa let MS pass him?

Shame on Ferrari, and shame on Alonso to accept that from the team. They should be booted out for the rest of the year for that, it was blatant. Massa should have had that win on the anniversary of his accident. At the very least, the points should be stripped from the team, because that was what it was all about, getting more points for Alonso. We, the fans, were robbed.

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to be honest i doubt the WMSC hearing is going to be that fussed about the incident itself. i reckon they view the $100,000 fine as covering that.

its the way it was done and the way ferrari handled the fall out from it with the cringe worthy attempts at covering it up resulting the current media circus that will be viewed as damaging the image of the sport.

they've got to be careful, if they send good old Nigel Tozzi to paris to continue to argue that they're right and everyone else is wrong(as they tend to do whenever someone else steps out of line) . then i do think they could be in trouble.

My take on this.

The team-order in itself I can understand and for the most part accept. These kind of team-orders are part of the very fabric of the sport as it is a team sport.

However... and it's a big however, this kind of team order is illegal, and this is very much the point which Ferrari seem to be doing their very best to ignore.

I think there is little doubt that it was a team order, one that was very poorly coded and executed. What has annoyed me is not team order decision in itself as I have already explained I fully understand the team decision, the point is that it's illegal.

And Ferrari have been very insulting to point of arrogance in the way they have dealt with the aftermath, to come out live on air and publicly say that the don't think they broke the rules, when it is pretty much 99.9% certain that they did, is simply quite astounding.

The sheer arrogance of this team is really quite difficult to stomach at times, all to often they are up on their high prancing horses whining when they get the hard rub of situations like safety cars etc, yet when they do something questionable... it's all okay because they are Ferrari and because of their history and heritage they think that F1 is Ferrari.

Well... I have news, Ferrari is not bigger than F1 contrary to the evident belief in the Ferrari boardroom, they have no divine right to win more than any other team.

To sum up... the action in itself was logical... the attitude in which it was carried out was despicable.

Yet another one:

Yes we all know that and mclaren had their radio checked after and no order was given to Kovy, he moved over on his own cause he is not stupid and new the reason why Lewis who had been way ahead was now behind him. As its been said before was that for the lead? NO Lewis still had to go and pass a number of cars to win the race which he did.

Sunday was a total different matter Alonso was behind due to his own doing not the mistake of the team.

As I have been told before stop bringing up the past to justify the now I can produce well over 10 videos of Ferrari doing things.

The year before that there is one of Massa letting Kimi pass, oh and that also gave kimi enough points to win the championship.

I also remember USA 2007 when mclaren would not move Lewis out the way to let Alonso win.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 02:46PM by marcl.

as much as I disagree with the way Ferrari did things on sunday, i think Alonso lost his position to Massa on the start because of Vettel's maneuver, even though it's true that Felipe started like a freakin rocket.

i have mixed feelings regarding the race. glad to see a Ferrari 1-2 but not the way they did it. And I would've liked to see Alonso overtaking Felipe on the track.

What woud have happened if Alonso was leading and Massa was the fastest one of the two? You can bet they would have held station.

The start is a vital part of the race, Button lost out to Lewis and was faster in the race yet you did not see him waving his arm and shouting down the radio. They done a team thing and held their position even though Webber was closer to them than Vettel was to Alonso.

to be fair to ferrari, they couldnt plead guilty could they as then they know they will get a penalty. by pleading not guilty, they hope to get off on a technicality, i.e. they didnt give a direct ream order, they simply told massa that fernando was faster, and massa, for the good of the team, let him through.

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The problem for Ferrari is though Massa could do the same lap time as Alonso

Tbh all they had to tell Massa was that he was short on fuel.

rapid_f1 escribió:
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> to be fair to ferrari, they couldnt plead guilty
> could they as then they know they will get a
> penalty. by pleading not guilty, they hope to get
> off on a technicality, i.e. they didnt give a
> direct ream order, they simply told massa that
> fernando was faster, and massa, for the good of
> the team, let him through.


that would make sense if Ferrari had managed things the correct way, but playing the 'pleading-not-guilty' card right after Domenicalli said no orders were given, Alonso saying he just saw Massa going slower than him and Massa himself saying that there were indeed team orders is just insulting, at least to me.

sad thing here is that Alonso's being criticized a lot when, despite all the 'moaning', he didn't do anything wrong. despite the outcome i bet he wanted to win this race on the track, which i think he would have if the order hadn't been given.

As I said I think he is getting the stick due to the way he was happy with the win and trying to justify it by saying he was the fastest all weekend.

The thing is the fastest guy does not always win.

The other reason is due to the way he and the team carried on after Valencia when someone broke the rules got a penalty but it did not go the way they wanted.