matt3454 Wrote:
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> DJSKYLINE Wrote:
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> -----
> > matt3454 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > DJSKYLINE Wrote:
> > >
> >
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> > > -----
> > > > Whats the big deal?!
> > > > Dont know why Massa feels dejected when in
> > > China
> > > > 2008, Kimi let him past to help with the
> > > > championsip.
> > > >
> > > > For the fans?! Well being a Ferrari fan I
> > have
> > > no
> > > > issue. When Kovy let Hamilton past, I like
> > > others
> > > > saw it coming, no real complaints as its
> part
> > > of
> > > > the championship. Whats the point in
> holding
> > > your
> > > > team mate up? Yes you could go against and
> > win
> > > the
> > > > race, but youd lose respect from the team.
> > > >
> > > > Us F1 fans who understand the business side
> > of
> > > f1
> > > > shouldnt see a problem with team orders,
> only
> > 1
> > > > driver can win for the Team at the end of
> the
> > > day.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fanboy much?
> >
> > Why? i said i have no issues with any team
> doing
> > it..... read much!?
>
> I did read it, but blaming it on the business side
> and whatnot when it conviently happens to Ferrari,
> if Mclaren did it on the last lap to stop Kimi
> winning a WC, would you still say 'well, meh! Its
> just a business.'
I think that is just a lame excuse - what is business, i dont think you understand business? To me, and i'm sure to the directr Stefano (sp) was on the phone to, business is maximising shareholder value, i.e maximising company value. Thats what any textbook definition of business will theorise and any corporate board room will strive for.
Can you really sit there today and tell me what happened today was good for "business". In real terms ferrari are not significantly better off than if they had not reversed the positions, ok thats the line bluring between the sporting and business side but on pure "business" as you put it ferrari are significantly the poorer, and their brand, reputation and value as a credible sporting team has been seriously compromised - a reputation which, over the last 10 years (dating back iirc to irvine at Magny Cours 98 or Salo at Hockenhiem 99) sadly precedes them. Is that good for Business, has what happened today maximised shareholder wealth? Quite clearly no, because brand and perception has much more impact than whether Alonso or Massa wins the race. Just look at the fuss it has created.
In terms of team orders - people need to focus more on one word
context and apply it to each situation, each unique situation of team orders. Some will be acceptable (spa 1998, some will be unaceptable - Jerez 97 for ex). and some will be boarderline like today. I'd like to raise the example of Spa 1998, that was team orders but why was that acceptable?
In the context of what had preceded schumacher and Hill being 1 -2, yes it was. It was protection of a 1-2 by a team who had never won a race or even looked like winning one, at an event which had seen 4 or 5 serious crashes and was taking place in perelous conditions. The first question i want to ask would be this, had the positions been reversed, i.e if Hill had been catching Ralf would Jordan have done the same or something different? I think he would have done the same - told the drivers to hold station, it was the only sensible thing to do, protection of a very delocate situation in perolous conditions, minimise risk if you want to use your business analagy.
Today was very boarder line - If it has been roles reversed, i think it would have been perfectly legit to say "felipe, we know you are quicker than fernando but he is ahead in the championship so maintain position, however because filipe was ahead this fundimentally adds another variable which has to be concidered, i.e different context, different thought proccesses and analysis has to be applied. To me - was the severity of the situation critical enough for the desision taken, and today that was very border line especially in the context of Ferando's personality and Ferrari's record a facet of the situation that we seriously have to be concious of when analysing. Therefore was it surprising - No? Could we all see it coming, yes...why could we all see it coming? probably had it been Jenson and Lewis who were in that situation on the same points as ferrari were today, we would have expected them to race or hold position, we wouldnt have concidered the possibility of mclaren asking either to move over - i.e we must concider whether reputation here.
clearly, one drivers was clearly asked to move over for the other and their reputation for doing this or throwing there toys out when it doesnt happen
does precede them. In a lot of circumstances, fine, we can accept that if a championship is at stake or the driver behind must pass as there is significat risk of the team loosing out on race stratergy/championship rivals. I think today was boarder line on both, i think on the second point ferrari are not significantly better off by changing positions, it was still a 1 2 and there wasnt anything going to risk that... It doesnt significantly better ferrari as a team to swap position, they still get the same amount of points and alonso is not gaining majorly in a championship for which, as of now he isnt part - Massa clearly proved he had the pace to stay clear of Seb so it doesnt benefit ferrari in the sense of protecting a victory. ok alonso is higher up in the championship but the reality is at this stage of the season he is neither fighting for a championship or even in with a snif of being in the championship fight... The question is, was the championship position being
clearly compramised here, and i think the answer is borderline no.
one thing i would also say would be, was it even remotely as scandolous as in the schumacher era when they really took the piss - no, comparisons should not be drawn with indy 05 (iirc) or austria 2002 as those were far more of a piss take!
edit: phew - hard to get accross what i am trying to say!
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24 Heures Du Mans 18-19 June 2005Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 07:25PM by andrew_S.