2010 German Grand Prix ****SPOILERS****

hopefully the wmsc won't hold back, and will throw them out of the championship. As Bernie said a couple of years ago, F1 doesn't need ferrari. especially if they pull stunts like today

_______________________________________________________

Team Japan Owner - GPGNC

DJSKYLINE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> matt3454 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DJSKYLINE Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Whats the big deal?!
> > > Dont know why Massa feels dejected when in
> > China
> > > 2008, Kimi let him past to help with the
> > > championsip.
> > >
> > > For the fans?! Well being a Ferrari fan I
> have
> > no
> > > issue. When Kovy let Hamilton past, I like
> > others
> > > saw it coming, no real complaints as its part
> > of
> > > the championship. Whats the point in holding
> > your
> > > team mate up? Yes you could go against and
> win
> > the
> > > race, but youd lose respect from the team.
> > >
> > > Us F1 fans who understand the business side
> of
> > f1
> > > shouldnt see a problem with team orders, only
> 1
> > > driver can win for the Team at the end of the
> > day.
> >
> >
> > Fanboy much?
>
> Why? i said i have no issues with any team doing
> it..... read much!?

I did read it, but blaming it on the business side and whatnot when it conviently happens to Ferrari, if Mclaren did it on the last lap to stop Kimi winning a WC, would you still say 'well, meh! Its just a business.'

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vesuvius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bigbrother Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SchueyFan Schreef:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Ferrari's been fined $100,000 and referred to
> > WMSC
> > > for team orders and bringing the sport into
> > > disrepute
> > >
> > > from Jon Noble and Adam Cooper on twitter.
> >
> > They will pay the fine with a smile
>
>
> yes but they will most likely get even bigger
> penalty from WMSC

well with a disrepute charge, there is no limit to the penalty the WMSC can hand out.

Yeah I think there is a difference between someone playing the team game to help a team mate out and being told to let someone past like today

Pity the fine is only so little, hope Ferrari are excluded from this race and the next 3 like BAR in 2005, it's a similar instance of cheating and a precedence should be set

---

Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

that was a techinical infringement though... this is more serious, because it calls the quality of the sport into question

_______________________________________________________

Team Japan Owner - GPGNC

Do you think they will receive an even greater punishment?

I'm really not sure, I can't see them being excluded like Mclaren were in 2007

---

Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

Kimi didnt win a championsip with mclaren so how could they have done that?!

DJSKYLINE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kimi didnt win a championsip with mclaren so how
> could they have done that?!


i meant with kimi in a ferrari, someone else in the mclaren.

Anyway, you can't just go around fixing the results of a race.

If man utd kept scoring own goals for chelsea just because they didn't want Arsenal to win the championship, they would get heavily penalised.

I understand why they did it (Alonso being spanish, cheater, monobrow, santander. Ferrari being shortsighted, stupid, italian, cheaters), but they could have at least told Alonso to overtake him properly, Alonso was faster afterall.

_______________________________________________________________________

Agreed matt, leave it up to the drivers to race properly!

Alonso's a coward. If he was real racing driver he wouldnt have moaned, he would have gone for the win and pushed for it!!

Vettel would have, Webber would have, Lewis would have, and Jenson would have! Most the drivers would have! This isnt racing.

Racing is Turkey with RBR and Mclaren!

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

oh yes he was faster and really should have tried more to overtake himself rather than radio in. Had a good chance with the traffic playing the part, shame he couldnt make it stick. Hats off to Massa though for fighting back.

Also notice how nobody takes the inside line to defend against Hamilton? Again Webber moved over to leave a gap just like he left for Vettel in turkey actually, Whats wrong with drivers and leaving the inside open?!

so just make and sell a f430 and the fines paid.

look at it from ferraris pov, yes massa would have won today in normal circumstances, but whos likely to be up there race in race out for the title? alonso or massa? who would u put your money on?

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.




LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 06:48PM by LS..

The results from germany will not be confirmed until after the hearing, it will be the same with Hungry as well.

matt3454 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DJSKYLINE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > matt3454 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > DJSKYLINE Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Whats the big deal?!
> > > > Dont know why Massa feels dejected when in
> > > China
> > > > 2008, Kimi let him past to help with the
> > > > championsip.
> > > >
> > > > For the fans?! Well being a Ferrari fan I
> > have
> > > no
> > > > issue. When Kovy let Hamilton past, I like
> > > others
> > > > saw it coming, no real complaints as its
> part
> > > of
> > > > the championship. Whats the point in
> holding
> > > your
> > > > team mate up? Yes you could go against and
> > win
> > > the
> > > > race, but youd lose respect from the team.
> > > >
> > > > Us F1 fans who understand the business side
> > of
> > > f1
> > > > shouldnt see a problem with team orders,
> only
> > 1
> > > > driver can win for the Team at the end of
> the
> > > day.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fanboy much?
> >
> > Why? i said i have no issues with any team
> doing
> > it..... read much!?
>
> I did read it, but blaming it on the business side
> and whatnot when it conviently happens to Ferrari,
> if Mclaren did it on the last lap to stop Kimi
> winning a WC, would you still say 'well, meh! Its
> just a business.'


I think that is just a lame excuse - what is business, i dont think you understand business? To me, and i'm sure to the directr Stefano (sp) was on the phone to, business is maximising shareholder value, i.e maximising company value. Thats what any textbook definition of business will theorise and any corporate board room will strive for.

Can you really sit there today and tell me what happened today was good for "business". In real terms ferrari are not significantly better off than if they had not reversed the positions, ok thats the line bluring between the sporting and business side but on pure "business" as you put it ferrari are significantly the poorer, and their brand, reputation and value as a credible sporting team has been seriously compromised - a reputation which, over the last 10 years (dating back iirc to irvine at Magny Cours 98 or Salo at Hockenhiem 99) sadly precedes them. Is that good for Business, has what happened today maximised shareholder wealth? Quite clearly no, because brand and perception has much more impact than whether Alonso or Massa wins the race. Just look at the fuss it has created.

In terms of team orders - people need to focus more on one word context and apply it to each situation, each unique situation of team orders. Some will be acceptable (spa 1998, some will be unaceptable - Jerez 97 for ex). and some will be boarderline like today. I'd like to raise the example of Spa 1998, that was team orders but why was that acceptable?

In the context of what had preceded schumacher and Hill being 1 -2, yes it was. It was protection of a 1-2 by a team who had never won a race or even looked like winning one, at an event which had seen 4 or 5 serious crashes and was taking place in perelous conditions. The first question i want to ask would be this, had the positions been reversed, i.e if Hill had been catching Ralf would Jordan have done the same or something different? I think he would have done the same - told the drivers to hold station, it was the only sensible thing to do, protection of a very delocate situation in perolous conditions, minimise risk if you want to use your business analagy.

Today was very boarder line - If it has been roles reversed, i think it would have been perfectly legit to say "felipe, we know you are quicker than fernando but he is ahead in the championship so maintain position, however because filipe was ahead this fundimentally adds another variable which has to be concidered, i.e different context, different thought proccesses and analysis has to be applied. To me - was the severity of the situation critical enough for the desision taken, and today that was very border line especially in the context of Ferando's personality and Ferrari's record a facet of the situation that we seriously have to be concious of when analysing. Therefore was it surprising - No? Could we all see it coming, yes...why could we all see it coming? probably had it been Jenson and Lewis who were in that situation on the same points as ferrari were today, we would have expected them to race or hold position, we wouldnt have concidered the possibility of mclaren asking either to move over - i.e we must concider whether reputation here.

clearly, one drivers was clearly asked to move over for the other and their reputation for doing this or throwing there toys out when it doesnt happen does precede them. In a lot of circumstances, fine, we can accept that if a championship is at stake or the driver behind must pass as there is significat risk of the team loosing out on race stratergy/championship rivals. I think today was boarder line on both, i think on the second point ferrari are not significantly better off by changing positions, it was still a 1 2 and there wasnt anything going to risk that... It doesnt significantly better ferrari as a team to swap position, they still get the same amount of points and alonso is not gaining majorly in a championship for which, as of now he isnt part - Massa clearly proved he had the pace to stay clear of Seb so it doesnt benefit ferrari in the sense of protecting a victory. ok alonso is higher up in the championship but the reality is at this stage of the season he is neither fighting for a championship or even in with a snif of being in the championship fight... The question is, was the championship position being clearly compramised here, and i think the answer is borderline no.

one thing i would also say would be, was it even remotely as scandolous as in the schumacher era when they really took the piss - no, comparisons should not be drawn with indy 05 (iirc) or austria 2002 as those were far more of a piss take!

edit: phew - hard to get accross what i am trying to say!

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24 Heures Du Mans 18-19 June 2005



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 07:25PM by andrew_S.

rapid_f1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so just make and sell a f430 and the fines paid.
>
> look at it from ferraris pov, yes massa would have
> won today in normal circumstances, but whos likely
> to be up there race in race out for the title?
> alonso or massa? who would u put your money on?


Who's to say who will be in the hunt at the end??

F1 delivers the unexpected.

After Bahrain, looking at pace, you would say that RBR would by now be leading both WDC and WCC, and that Ferrari would close behind, and JB someway behind Lewis. Look how it's turned out! Not what anyone expected. This could have been a turn-around race for Massa. For all we know, had he won this, and he had his confidence returned. felt confortable with he car he could have gone on to win more races. How I doubt he will simply because of dent in how he seems himself within the team.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

its all conjecture, massa may have done this, rbr would have done that. alonso got 7 more points than he would have for second. who knows how significant that could be? look at 2007 and 2008.

and ppl keep saying alosno isnt better off, he is. and ppl also say he isnt in thr title fight, he hasnt a sniff. he is only 34 points behind. with 25 for a win, its all up for grabs. the way that ferrari did it today was crude, thats for sure

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 07:23PM by rapid_f1.

I love how some of the true-Brit McLaren/Lewis fans jump up and call foul the moment Ferrari or Alonso break the rules, and all the Ferrari fans jump up and call foul when McLaren do it. In this very thread we've got McLaren guys saying it's awful and Ferrari should have the book thrown at them while on the next line excusing McLaren for doing exactly the same recently.

Brilliant!




I think this has been taken out of all proportion.

The race result should stand, Alonso and Massa should keep their points, and Ferrari should have their points removed from the constructors championship.

Equally, the rules should be changed to only allow the switching of positions when one drivers is mathematically out of the drivers championship reckoning.

There's no way a team wouldn't swap drivers around to help the another in the closing stages of the season - most of the top teams have, as has been pointed out.

Quote
matt3454
Fanboy much?

As a hater of all fanboys, I thought it was quite levelled. An opinion which differs to yours and is in favour of a team you support doesn't automatically make you a fanboy.

I thought it was quite telling that on the BBC, Coulthard, and all he went through as Dennis's whipping boy at McLaren, was standing up in total understanding of Ferrari, while not arguing against the breaking of the rules.

Equally, I think Ferrari are being punished for being utter cocks about the way they've allowed this to happen. Alonso should have been strong enough to refuse to do it the way he did.* If Massa was to toe the company line then he should have done it in a less obvious way.** The Ferrari management handled it horribly, not having the balls to deliver the message themselves and getting Smedley to do it (I felt so, so sorry for him). The PR after the race was absolutely laughable - no co-ordination in their attempts to cover it up and taking the media, fans and stewards for idiots.

If they'd done it in a less obvious manner (Heikki/Lewis, Massa/Raikkonen) then they would have got away with far less fallout.

* Not saying I wouldn't have done the same in that situation, but he would have gained shitloads of respect for it.

** Again, entirely his right to make the statement he did, but if he's a true team player he'd have handled it differently.

Quote
chet
Vettel would have, Webber would have, Lewis would have, and Jenson would have! Most the drivers would have! This isnt racing.

Hang on, Lewis is the closest we've had to this situation (bring the sport into disrepute) with lie-gate. It's the lying which has got the WMSC involved, not the act itself.

Equally I don't think you can accuse Alonso of not being a 'real racer'. He's had plenty of 'help' from Renault and Ferrari in manufacturing results in his favour, but the guy is at worst the 2nd best racer on the grid. 1 (or 2) actions from his team doesn't change the mentality of someone. He should have been strong enough to have said "no, I don't want to win it this way", but you can't honestly say with absolute certainty that in the same situation you wouldn't have done exactly the same.

I' ve never felt so angry with Ferrari. If you look at my signature, you'll realise why.
Anyway, although Alonso was quite faster than Massa, they could make Massa stop for new soft tyres, letting Alonso 1st.
Also, I think Alonso is too selfish for letting Massa win a race ahead of him. If not, why do you think he left Mclaren in late 2007?
The last one: Alonso shouted something while he was trying to overtake Massa. Some laps later, the message for Massa.
Coincidence?



Stats: 139 Starts / 7 Wins / 9 Poles / 5 Fastest laps

Carlitox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I' ve never felt so angry with Ferrari. If you
> look at my signature, you'll realise why.
> Anyway, although Alonso was quite faster than
> Massa, they could make Massa stop for new soft
> tyres, letting Alonso 1st.
> Also, I think Alonso is too selfish for letting
> Massa win a race ahead of him. If not, why do you
> think he left Mclaren in late 2007?
> The last one: Alonso shouted something while he
> was trying to overtake Massa. Some laps later, the
> message for Massa.
> Coincidence?


No point in making Felipe stop, he would've lost second since Vettel was closing in behind. But looking at all this, utter stupidity from Ferrari. Disregards everything for the sport just so that they can get pramboy to win. idiots. Felt so sorry for Felipe and Rob Smedley today.

What was the resent mclaren team order then? Save fuel I always thought meant hold station tbh but in Turkey it was found Mclaren only had enough fuel for half a lap more so you can see why they done it. I dont see how teams can expect to win races if they cannot drive flat out all the time its stupid. But yes that can be read as a team order, but they could have said "Lewis let button pass as he had more fuel than you sorry we dont want you to hold him up as webber is behind you"

Maybe Massa should not have let alonso pass, going by what ferrari are now saying all they done was tell him alonso was faster. But its clear that is the code word to let the other ferrari pass.

I can see Ferrari giving Rob a talking to.

We all know team orders are used in the sport, they always have and always will be. But today there was no need, both drivers are miles behind in the points and they have risked the 20 points alonso would have got regardless. There was just no need to move massa out the way today vettel was far enough back and never got close to them all race.

Ferrari made such a big deal out of rule breaking at valencia and then pull this stunt.

The only winner out of all this is Massa, people now feel sorry for him.

And the worst part of today was we all new the order was going to come.

The race was rubbish though anyway probably the 2nd worst of the year so far.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 07:51PM by marcl.