Belgium Grand Prix 2008 ***SPOILERS***

he passed a blue car, does that count?

it depends who complains

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X (@ed24f1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2008 08:48PM by SchueyFan.

Looking at that video, I have to say that I think Massa has called it correctly, Hamilton was just a bit over too optimistic. The Bus Stop was Raikkonen's corner, Hamilton probably did the right thing to cut it to avoid an avoidable accident, but he didn't behave appropriately afterwards. As as Massas pointed out, you have to hand back the advantage as well as the track position. Hamilton did not as has already been pointed out, had he not cut the chicane he would have not been alongside Raikkonen and length or two more behind him.

The penalty was hard, but by the lettering of the regulation (at least I think) fair.

It's a shame the result had to end like that. it was fantastic racing, but it seems that for once the stewards applied the rules in a way that they probably should be.

But like I've pointed out elsewhere you can't justify wiping out a correctly applied penalty simply because other penalties haven't been applied well in the past.

If only they could get it right more often, they are extremely hit and miss.

The only thing Rosberg did wrong was to spin. He was already trying to recover to the track when Hamilton and Raikkonen came across him, and unless a certain someone was expecting him to simply vanish into thin air then he did all he realistically could.

At that point it was six to one and half a dozen to the other between Hamilton and Raikkonen, both had ran wide at Pouhon with neither gaining an legible advantage on the other, and at Fanges they had a car in the middle of the track, no foul play there, it was just who could react better.

Something that hasn't been talked about -

Everyone sayas Lewis was avoiding an accident. But have people actually looked at how to avoid that accident? When Heikki went down the inside of Webber, people say he should have backed out earlier to avoid the accident. So why couldn't Lewis just back out and get behind Kimi? Had there been grass, gravel or a wall there, thats exactly what Lewis would have done - he would have gotten behind Kimi, which was perfectly possible at that point. Lewis didn't avoid the accident - he seen the situation as a way to gain from it. He used the tarmac as a get out of jail free card, and as an advantage down the next straight that he wouldn't have gotten if he had got behind Kimi.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Something that hasn't been talked about -
>
> Everyone sayas Lewis was avoiding an accident. But
> have people actually looked at how to avoid that
> accident? When Heikki went down the inside of
> Webber, people say he should have backed out
> earlier to avoid the accident. So why couldn't
> Lewis just back out and get behind Kimi? Had there
> been grass, gravel or a wall there, thats exactly
> what Lewis would have done - he would have gotten
> behind Kimi, which was perfectly possible at that
> point. Lewis didn't avoid the accident - he seen
> the situation as a way to gain from it. He used
> the tarmac as a get out of jail free card, and as
> an advantage down the next straight that he
> wouldn't have gotten if he had got behind Kimi.

I think most of my 17,000 posts in this thread have said something to that effect Dave. Had Hamilton backed out in the chicane, he'd have been tight against the inside, with less momentum than Kimi, in the wet, on dry tyres in a traction zone. He'd have been more like 10-20 car lengths behind Kimi by the time Kimi broke for turn 1. That he wasn't, through cutting the chicane, is the advantage the stewards will be punishing him for.

He probably couldn't overtake by then, but everything point to hm getting him at some point around that lap.

Still struggling to see why Massa didn't pit for wet tyres. Lewis had something to lose, but Massa wasn't going to lose 2nd to Bordais by diving into the pits. Easy in hindsight I guess, and I'm sure Ferrari had plenty of things on their mind at that point.

Jim, I'm fairly sure Kimi did gain while running off track in Pouhon. Look how far back he was before the corner. Still haven't seen someone getting penalised for gaining through going off track anywhere other than a chicane (that springs to mind), but it might have been interesting had Kimi finished the race - I'm fairly sure it wouldn't have just been Hamilton getting the penalty.

I think most of my 17,000 posts in this thread have said something to that effect Dave.

Well not really. And even on TBKL, they aren't debating how he avoided the accident. Everyone keeps talking about why he cut, was the penalty fair, did he lift, was not lifting fair, and even whether or not Kimi was fair. You may have mentioned it, but nobody is discussing it - and thats annoying me, because its possibly the most important point other than "did he lift".

Jim, I'm fairly sure Kimi did gain while running off track in Pouhon.

Gain, or gain on Lewis? He didn't gain time running round the outside of Pouhon, but he made time on Lewis, but Lewis had an off too, so you can't judge that.

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You can. They went off on exactly the same spot. Hamilton chose to get back to the track again, while Raikkonen decided to do that after Pouhon to gain time on Hamilton. No, he didn't gain time on the racing line, but he did gain time on Hamilton.

Date: September 08, 2008 07:32PM
Posted by: Nickv (IP Logged)

You can. They went off on exactly the same spot. Hamilton chose to get back to the track again, while Raikkonen decided to do that after Pouhon to gain time on Hamilton. No, he didn't gain time on the racing line, but he did gain time on Hamilton.

You can compare them, but it is meaningless. You cannot directly compare Driver 1 making up time on Driver 2 whilst both are having offs. 1 off is not equal to another off, even at the same corner. If Kimi had suddenly found a faster line around the runoff, that was faster than the racing line, by all means. But the way he did it, he didn't mean to make up time - he even lifted the throttle to get around the outside, whilst Lewis straight lined it coming back on.

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and the rules state that its for gaining on the racing line, not gaining on someone who goes off to.

Contentious point. I can see Dave's angle, and I can see the other one. No idea which one would be deemed correct, though Dave's clarification does seem more valid. [/me still waits on Ferrari International Assistance jibe].

Can I just add after watching that vid again (3rd of 4th time now, it's that good) that I'm staggered, absolutely staggered, that at least Hamilton was still flat to the floor through Eau Rouge (and Kimi obviously wasn't much less committed, if any). He'd just spun the wheels in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears, and at the top of hill it was properly wet.

Unbelievable. The physics involved aren't the bit that impress me (mighty impressive as they are), more the confidence in the driver...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2008 09:41PM by gav.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> A wise person, however, might point out that there
> are certain intrinsic, unquantifiable factors
> involved in motor racing, and that one Lewis
> Hamilton pulled the exact same move on first
> Massa, then Piquet at Hockenheim in July --
> forcing them both onto runoff on exit from an
> extremely slow corner and leaving them with no
> choice but to back off and fall behind him. That
> person might also contend that justice, in its
> often odd way, has been served.
>
> I'm not inclined to disagree.


sums it up IMO. Lewis may feel hard done by, but he was happy to push other drivers off the track, so he can't whine when a driver does it to him. syaing that, Sim's pics on a previous page show that he didn't even have to go off the track, he could easily have stayed within the confinesoff the track, but that would have lost him a lot of time on Raikkonen.

and what the heck has Charlie Whiting saying he *thinks* Lewis would be ok got to do with anything? he's not a steward, he only gave his opinion that Lewis would be ok, which was far from being an official answer to McLaren's query.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

and i have read that mclarens apeal might not be justified, as the original punishment was a drive trough penalty, but was changed into a 25s punishment as the race was already finished, and you cant apeal dt's.

I can see both points of view, but if Charlie Whiting's word is not something that a team can base a descision on, then he shouldn't be doling out the comments.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2008 10:24PM by jbnd05.

gav Wrote:
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> Can I just add after watching that vid again (3rd
> of 4th time now, it's that good) that I'm
> staggered, absolutely staggered, that at least
> Hamilton was still flat to the floor through Eau
> Rouge (and Kimi obviously wasn't much less
> committed, if any). He'd just spun the wheels in
> 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears, and at the top of hill it
> was properly wet.

I was amazed at that also. As Eau Rouge came up I thought that he must lift and was taken aback when he just kept his foot on the gas. Shows how confident Hamilton is in the wet, even on the wrong tyres.

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Thanks by the thanks ppl!


btw about Charlie remember that straight after this he also said something like :"but this is just an opinion ,i'm not a steward so i'm not able to judge"

Iceman-Kimi Wrote:
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> at least kimi was trying and wasnt going for 2nd
> place (i always hate that :P) maybe not the best
> way to become a 2 times champion, buts its more
> spectaculair :D we can use that in these days
> (seriously, if 2009 wont get any better with
> better regulations id better stop watching f1, or
> ill die from boredom, anyway spa was the first
> good one in ages)

sure mate but i meant in a different way, not exactly entering in the terms of race itself but treatment of ppl about it

perfect comment quoted from a guy @ autosport.com forums:

"had been Massa in Kimi's place yesterday people would use that as an example of why he is an idiot and weak under pressure and not WDC material all together etc. All the while Kimi in Massa's place would be praised for thinking of the bigger picture, the Championship...

It's always good to see agressive drivers and Kimi was fast but he made a race-ending driver error, something that Massa didn't do."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2008 11:35PM by Rodrigo007.

I hope someone at the top see's the problem of the apshalt run-offs.

They're fine in Pouhon I guess, saftey is priority. But in slow corners such as the bustop what is the need for the apshalt run-off? It would solve these problems for good.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Out of curiosity... why is it that on TV the background for the press conference looks bright grey, yet in photos it looks black? It's a bit annoying because the grey is very boring, but the black looks pretty good.



Couldn't find video of Belgian GP, but this is what I mean:


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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]

I despise Hamilton. I think it was the right decision, but that the punishment was likely biased in order to increase the excitement of the championship. They've been doing that for a while now. I expected a grid drop.

did anyone see Bourdais' interview on ITV post race?

god does that man twitch, hes like a malfunctioning robot. also looked like he was about to genuinely cry at the cameraman! LOL's from me there :P


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

Well he just had the podium that would have saved his F1 career disappear from him at the last turn. Wouldn't you be gutted?

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GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP