suspended mclaren employee is mike coughlan

All i got to say about this stupid drawn out saga is this. If an employee holds information about a competitor but does not give this information to his team, should his team be disqualified. I think an unbiased view would be no. I am a Mclaren fan but believe they should be punished if the documents were in the teams hands as that is what should happen. However, that is not the case. Neither the FIA or Ferrari have evidence to suggest it was.

I get the distinct feeling Ferrari know the only way to win this years titles is by removing the competition, they thought they had the best driver line up, not quite true at this stage. However, whatever happens this years titles are tainted.




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The debate here is good, but...again, as happened by about page 7 you guys seem to be focusing on whether McLaren benefited by a member of the team possessing the data. That is not the issue. The issue of which McLaren was found GUILTY, was POSSESSION of the data. Period. They had it(1 member only), they admitted they had it (even though they didn't know they had it.) They were found guilty. They were not penalized.

Now we have a mess.

As a Ferrari fan and an F1 fan I would like to see McLaren receive a 1 race ban. This would set a reasonable precedent and allow sterner penalties in the future; and would also be in-line with bans that have been issued to other teams in the past(albeit for much different circumstances.

I would also note that Ferrari's incursions in the past(not all, but most have been issues of technical compliance with vague interpretations of rules (I'm talking Flexi-wings, barge board widths etc,etc.)in those cases the 'rules' are subject to interpretation. In this case Possesion means, possession.

However, if the initial verdict is overruled and McLaren are suddenly found to be NOT GUILTY of possession of the data, I would like Ferrari to have the balls to pull out of this years Championship. The furore that would cause would be punishment enough for McLaren, as we know they would hate that situation just as much as a ban.

Ultimately, Coughlan was an utter tool for keeping the documents, and it is such a let down that his complete stupidity is creating a massive problem for McLaren, and F1 in general.

Mclaren have not yet sacked Mike btw.

If Stepney can prove it was not him not only will he be able to sue ferrari for giving him a bad name but also unfair dismisal.

This whole thing now just seems like ferrari are trying to win by getting mclaren banned.

As I said before the car ferrari started the year with are the ones mike had the plans for, he did not have the plans for the ferrari raced from Spain onwards, you know the one that was not tested in the wind tunnel as it broke for a few weeks.

Razorsedge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The debate here is good, but...again, as happened
> by about page 7 you guys seem to be focusing on
> whether McLaren benefited by a member of the team
> possessing the data. That is not the issue. The
> issue of which McLaren was found GUILTY, was
> POSSESSION of the data. Period.

I think you, and many others here, should get a clue about what you are talking about... period.

McLaren were found guilty of a violation of article 151c of the FIA international sporting code.

It reads as follows:
[www.fia.com]

151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules :
a) All bribery or attempt, directly or indirectly, to bribe any person having official duties in relation to a competition or being employed in any manner in connection with a competition and the acceptance of, or offer to accept, any bribe by such an official or employee.
b) Any action having as its object the entry or participation in a competition of an automobile known to be ineligible therefor.
c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.

Pretty please, with sugar on top... find the word POSSESSION in that article.

The key words are: if McLaren have had fraudulent conduct, and/or have acted prejudicial to the interests of competition.

If you look at Mosleys letter to Luigi Macaluso The President of ACI – CSAI, Mosley refers to the verdict and considerations of the WMSC, and you can see that team possession of data (Coughlin possession yes, team possession no, team knowledge of possession yes, team use of possessed data no) is not what they discussed, but the issue is the very points in the article. I quote:

[www.f1-live.com]

"There are a number of suspicious elements, all of which the World Motor Sport Council took into account when reaching its decision. For example: the claim that the tip-off was the only information that passed in March; the failure to inform Ferrari of a spy when negotiating an agreement based on mutual trust; the installation of a “firewall” at McLaren to stop Stepney communicating, with no attempt at a similar block on Coughlan’s private computers; McLaren agreement to Coughlan travelling to Barcelona “to ask Stepney to stop communicating” rather than simply phone him’ the fact that, far from ceasing communication, Coughlan returned from Barcelona with a vast quantity of Ferrari data; the failure to make clear that Coughlan was working on at McLaren while in possession of the data; Jonathan Neale’s advice to Coughlan to destroy document, without knowing or wanting to know what they were, and so on."

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 03:55PM by Morbid.

I stand corrected.
My opinion regarding a penalty remains unchanged.

...but I did find the word 'possession' in your quote!!

As I said before if you take the team stance that ferrari are i.e as mike is empoyed by mclaren mclaren have the plans turn it round. Nigel was employed by ferrari therefore ferrari as a team gave mclaren the plans.

No one stole anything they were given to mclaren by ferrari.

Razorsedge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I stand corrected.
> My opinion regarding a penalty remains unchanged.
>
> ...but I did find the word 'possession' in your
> quote!!

You probably found the word possession, but the challenge was:

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> find the word
> POSSESSION in that article.





@ marcl: I think you are totally right. Ferrari did give it to McLaren. Theft is out of the question. Fraudulent conduct and acting prejudicial to the interests of competition and motor sport is very much present though.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Yes I just get anoyed when people keep saying mclaren stole the plans when they clearly did not.

If Mike had done this under instruction by mclaren he would have said so by now, he is the one that could end up in jail or banned from sport so he would take the whole team down with him. The fact that he has not done this says to me anyway that he acted alone.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Mike had done this under instruction by mclaren
> he would have said so by now, he is the one that
> could end up in jail or banned from sport so he
> would take the whole team down with him. The fact
> that he has not done this says to me anyway that
> he acted alone.

Or has been instructed by his lawyers not to say anything. This will go far beyond the World Motor Sports Council and the FIA. There'll be legal proceedings brought after this, and that may be where we see both Ferrari (Stepney) and McLaren (Coughlan) in deeper trouble. As things stand it's just a sporting case, totally separate from a law one.

The thing is mike could have mentioned the team in the thing he signed, u would think he would try and clear him name.

This is where it gets confussing as Ferrari claim he mentions other people in mclaren like Martin W.

But when you read what Max says the only other person mentioned is Nobeal who told him to destroy the stuff.

At the moment there is so much stuff going around who knows what to beleive. I just find it very very hard to beleive ferrari do to the past.

who's "Nobeal"?

"oi, you, Nob Eal!"

---

RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

lol Could not remember how to spell his name

Are some of you serious?

This is not an issue of Ferrari did this and Mclaren did that. This is a situation of industrial espionage in sport. McLaren had in its possession intellectual property belonging to Ferrari. Whether a Ferrari employee delivered them or not doesnt matter. Ferrari have chosen to take their situation up through legal proceedings. They also managed to hold an internal investigation with authorities and and the FIA to delve further into this matter.

McLaren on the other hand had in its possession the intellectual property of Ferrari, members of the senior staff at McLaren were aware of these documents. It was Never brought up to the FIA, or Authorities at anytime. I dont know about you, if I was in this situation the human element would want to me to look at them out of curiosity, while my obligation to the team would have me report this as soon as possible. Something this big is bound to get out, the Team's obligation would be to report it. I have a hard time believing that more people within McLaren did not know about this, Ron Denis included. But that is just speculation.

Regardless, McLaren did not turn in the documents to the FIA, the senior staff who knew that Mike had the documents did not "supposidly" notify Ron Denis about this or the FIA for that Matter. It was their fiduciary responsibility to their company, sport, and governing body. They did not take it up, therefore they should be punished. Not to mention Mike still is employed by McLaren.

Now my understanding of this board is pretty clear. We have a band of McLaren fans arguing against a couple of Ferrari fans. There is a huge lack of objectivity here and most of you are missing the point. Let me break it down simply by saying, had the roles been reversed a number of you would be going off the wall and declaring Ferrari be banned from Formula One (which would kill F1 subsiquently). Yet, with the current situation before us, we see that a number of you are supporting the idea of being found Guilty without a punishment. Most Ferrari supporters have been taking a very logical approach to this matter. A suitable suspension would be 2-3 races tops. it would be appropriate and justifiable.

Marco1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McLaren on the other hand had in its possession
> the intellectual property of Ferrari, members of
> the senior staff at McLaren were aware of these
> documents. It was Never brought up to the FIA, or
> Authorities at anytime.

Actually as I stated earlier Max Mosely said (on fivelive) Ron Dennis contacted him as soon as Ron found out one of his employees had the documents.

If you can be docked points for one of your employees having documents sent to them without proof of them being used, then a team might aswell just write up some fake pages and ship them out to another team.

First of -

We have a band of McLaren fans arguing against a couple of Ferrari fans.

An incorrect assumption. I am not a McLaren fan. I am looking at this at a neutral point of view.

Whether a Ferrari employee delivered them or not doesnt matter.

It matters alot, actually. It proves McLaren did not only not steal the plans, it shows they had no plans to do so, and that means alot in a court of law of goeverning body appeal.

Let me break it down simply by saying, had the roles been reversed a number of you would be going off the wall and declaring Ferrari be banned from Formula One (which would kill F1 subsiquently).

Ok first off, that kill F1 comment is not only said with no foundation, its also down right bloody hilarious. Secondly, stop generating so called "facts" in your head and then presenting them as such.

You are banging on about how Ferrari fans are being sensible but McLaren fans are not being. A rather nice blanket statement which one could argue is simply and opinion of yours, and being a Ferrari fan your already extremely biast..and infact, thats the stance I'm going to take.

You are blatently ignoring the fact that there is no evidence that McLaren benefited from Coughlin obtaining these documents. How can a sporting penalty be applied for a crime which did not occur?

I know your next line. "Coughlin is part of McLaren and thus McLaren should be held responsible". Well sir, pot kettle, black. Stepney is part of Ferrari and therefore Ferrari should be held responsible for his actions. McLaren did NOT steal, spy, or take documents from Ferrari. Ferrari GAVE them to McLaren and this is a key fact which is being ignored by Ferrari fans such as yourself. Stepney (and therefore Ferrari) and Coughlin (and therefore McLaren) broke the same regulations regarding confidential data and the passing of this between teams, they broke the same laws regarding confidential information, and they broke similar contracts regarding the non-disclosure of these documents (altho one could argue Stepneys contract breech was larger due to him being the one handing over the data, and therefore a worse crime than what Coughlin commited). You can NOT apply these regulations, laws and contracts to just 1 man/team, you must apply them to both as both broke the same regs/laws/contracts.

If McLaren is to be held responsible for Coughlins actions and are therefore at fault for having these documents then Ferrari must be held responsible for Stepneys action and are therefore at fault for giving the documents to McLaren, and one could argue that since Ferrari are responsible for it that McLarens crime becomes alot smaller since no spying or theft was involved. The word espionage is actually incorrect in this case as it implies industrial level spying, which never once happened here.

In black and white - both teams must be treated the same. If McLaren is to account for Coughlins actions, Ferrari are to account for Stepneys actions and must admit to handing the plans to McLaren. This is not only fair, its logical and sensible.

However Ferrari have shown here that they will not accept this and will apply double standards to the situation. When plans were used by Toyota, Ferrari failed to take the situation to a court battle, most likely on the grounds that Toyota were not a threat to Ferrari. However now that McLaren are, they are pushing forward with appeals and prosecution. This is not an acceptable way to treat the situation at all. Rules should be applied at all times and not when people want them to be and for Ferrari to shrug off one situation and then push forward on another shows another case of double standards. If I was cynical enough I could suggest that Ferrari are only doing it because they are unable to beat McLaren in the title race this year...but that would be stating my opinion as fact, and I wouldnt want to do that now would I, Marco1?

The fact of the matter is, there is no evidence to suggest that McLaren gained a sporting advantage from the documents, and therefore should recive no sporting penalty. On the business side, Ferrari handed the plans to McLaren, so you could actually argue that not only should McLaren not be held responsible for the documents, but Ferrari are the ones who broke the regulations in the transfer of them in the first place and therefore Ferrari should be punished for the actions of stepney, just like they are calling for McLaren to be punished for the actions of Coughlan.

If you were honestly unbiast and looking at the situation fairly like you claim you would see the blatent double standards being applied here by Ferrari and that they are calling for McLaren to be treated differently to themselves.

Edit: as has been pointed out by TC, your post actually contains false information as Ron Dennis contacted Max after finding out about the situation, and therefore acted appropriatly, thus further re-enforcing the fact that no evidence was found to suggest that McLaren benefitted from the situation, but also did not want part of it at all. This shows a sporting nature, something which cannot be said for Ferraris appeal and willingness to treat McLaren as a whole, but there own team members as individuals.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 07:54PM by DaveEllis.

Marco1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are some of you serious?

Not all the time!


> Now my understanding of this board is pretty
> clear. We have a band of McLaren fans arguing
> against a couple of Ferrari fans. There is a huge
> lack of objectivity here and most of you are
> missing the point. Let me break it down simply by
> saying, had the roles been reversed a number of
> you would be going off the wall and declaring
> Ferrari be banned from Formula One (which would
> kill F1 subsiquently). Yet, with the current
> situation before us, we see that a number of you
> are supporting the idea of being found Guilty
> without a punishment. Most Ferrari supporters have
> been taking a very logical approach to this
> matter. A suitable suspension would be 2-3 races
> tops. it would be appropriate and justifiable.


Believe it or not, not everyone who voicing an opinion on this topic is necessarily a Mclaren or Ferrari fan. If the roles were reversed and it was Ferrari employee who had possession of Mclaren data i would expect the result to have been the same as what has happened tbh.

The FIA has it's priorities in safety and trying to create an competitive season. Lot's of top teams in the past have got away with things they shouldn't have because in the interests of providing a close fight for the championship and this is no different. The last thing the FIA wants is to ban Mclaren now we have a four way fight for the championship, something we have not had for several years.

Plus F1 has it's new rising star and bankable commodity in Lewis Hamilton who is helping to boost viewing figures and possibly race attendances too. The situation is similar to when Ayrton Senna died and F1 needed it's new sporting hero who was of course Michael Schumacher and his team got away with their fair share of misdemeanours lightly in 1994 imo. See how no officials questioned Lewis's dodgy crane job at the Nurburgring?

Plus we now have the situation of case going to the International Court of Appeal in which case if any new and potentially damaging evidence comes out against Mclaren they will be in deep doodoo.

Here's a good article on why Mclaren did not get any penalty for what happened:

[www.planetf1.com]

Edit: Good post Dave clear, concise and neutral unlike the fan boys view of things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 08:08PM by mikef1.

Dont know if this has been mentioned before, but Ferrari raced (and won) in an illegal car in Australia - as shown by the FIA. They recieved no penalty at all. It was shown (by McLaren) that the floor went against the rules, and it was Stepney that blew the whistle to Couglan about this. I believe that they are just trying to divert attention away from themselves and to destabilise McLaren.

[www.autosport.com] - includes McLaren's evidence to this

Marco1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are some of you serious?
>
> This is not an issue of Ferrari did this and
> Mclaren did that. This is a situation of
> bla
> bla
> bla...

Yes... We are all in our lost in our McLaren frenzy, and are completely in the wrong. Fortunately, this gives you the opportunity to be right. Lucky you

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Look if they doo mclaren they also need to do the same to toyota and spyker simple as that and if they dont then its wrong.

Both them teams had plans of other teams cars the fia new and done nothing.

I am not posting the letter by Ron its on the mclaren website its huge so if people want to read it read it there. It covers everything.

So if people what fairness in f1 now lets dq ferrari from the Australian GP results, mclaren could have done this but did not as Ron says, so thats a mclaren 1-2 and both ferrari drivers near enough out the championship.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2007 11:48AM by marcl.

Aside from the actual scandal, I'm not really sure the FIA should have got involved until the legal proceedings were done with Stepney and Coughlan.

Say they ban McLaren for the season. Then in a few months time Stepney proves that (for example) Ferrari planted the documents at McLaren to get them banned. Then the FIA would have banned McLaren when they did nothing wrong, ruined a great championship for the spectators and given the championship to the very team that should have been banned.