suspended mclaren employee is mike coughlan

in my opinion they do have an advantage, i mean, F-1 is such a complex sport, these teams invest millions of dollars just to add a 10 inch aero device that most of us don't notice, imagine knowing how the best car on the grid works...

what if it was Ron Dennis who had the plans? would that mean Mclaren shall be punished?, a lot of people think that just because Ron didn't know about the plans mclaren shouldn't be punished, but the truth is that he's a nobody when it comes to making the car, the fact that the Coughlan was the one who had it is what really matters, being him a direct person involved in the making of the car and all, so for me just by taking a quick peep to the plans, that gives them advantage

anyways this thread is dead for me from now on, the only thing i'm going to do is enjoy the rest of the season, being the most exciting season in the recent years, what annoys me is that people are very desperate of finding a superstar in F1, scince Michael left, i mean this year Hamilton was the big thing, and then Massa, then Alonso then Kimi, i mean there's no real superstar in F1 and if we had to choose i'll go for Alonso, even thou i'm not a big fan, but you have to recgnize he's on a super class, and i know that once he settles down good at Mclaren he can be unbeatable, i don't even want to think about next year if Mclaren gives him another competitive car... wow went off topic sorry guys, i'm out, see ya at the other threads.. LOL

Ferrari are not allowed to take the mater back to the FIA court.

And they are not allowed to carry on their procedings against Mike.

I dont know whats going on now.

Looks like ferrari are going to be taking mclaren to a legal court. They would only be able to get money compensation this way and have people arrested but would not be able to get mclaren banned, but they could get mclarens cars impounded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2007 05:14PM by marcl.

Ferrari aren't gonna appeal against the non-punishment, but legal cases are ongoing in Italy and England: [news.bbc.co.uk]

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

The FIA has referred the verdict of the McLaren and Ferrari spying case to its Court of Appeal following a request by the Italian motorsport commission (CSAI).

McLaren was last week found guilty by The World Motor Sport Council of possessing confidential Ferrari technical documents after they were found at its chief designer Mike Coughlan’s home.

But it deemed there was “insufficient evidence” that the team had used or benefited from the information to warrant any kind of penalty.

Ferrari boss Jean Todt had already expressed his fury at the decision, before on Monday CSAI president Liugi Macaluso wrote to FIA president Max Mosley expressing his dissatisfaction with the verdict and urging the governing body to submit the matter to the court of appeal so to give Ferrari a chance to explain its full case.

In Mosley’s reply, he said the matter would be referred to the FIA court, particularly due to the "the importance of public confidence in the outcome".

He added that Ferrari, McLaren and any other team that wished would be allowed to state their positions in the appeal hearing.

“Your letter [Macaluso’s] suggests that the outcome may have been different if the Council had given Ferrari further opportunities to be heard beyond those that were in fact offered,” Mosley wrote.

“Because of this and the importance of public confidence in the outcome, I will send this matter to the FIA Court of Appeal under Article 23.1 of the FIA Statutes with a request that the Court hear both Ferrari and McLaren and any other Championship competitor who so requests and determine whether the decision of the WMSC was appropriate and, if not, substitute such other decision as may be just.”

The WMSC’s decision not to impose a penalty on McLaren was greeted with disgust by Ferrari, with the Italian squad saying it was “incomprehensible” that despite being found guilty, the British team was not hit with a penalty.

Ferrari then published a further lengthy response to the verdict on its website in which Todt said that in addition to pressing on with legal action against its former engineer Nigel Stepney and Coughlan in Italy and England, the team “do not rule out taking further action.”

McLaren boss Ron Dennis welcomed the WMSC’s decision not to punish his team, but admitted he was not totally comfortable with the verdict.

"[McLaren is] not entirely happy with the outcome of the hearing, but the punishment fits the crime," he said.

Source - ITV


Are they determined to ruin this years championship? Just as the bad publicity ends for F1, Mosley has to drag everyone through it again. Ridiculous.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2007 07:22PM by FRESCO.

i dont see how what ferrari have to say can affect anything? mclaren either used it or they didnt, theres drawings there and mclaren have offered one of their cars for checking

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

I don't see how some of you can even begin to comment in the manner you have been.

In any other sport, when illegal action is taken by a team or member or athlete there are sanctions placed upon him/her/them. Illegal gambling rings, match fixing, steroids, enhancements (medication or other) are all reprimanded. When found guilty of these things the team/player in question is punished with either a fine, suspension or both.

Why in the world is Formula One exempt from this? Because some of you people want to see McLaren win? Had Ferrari been found guilty by the FIA court for a breach of section 151c of the sporting regulation would your reaction been any different? Would you still be saying, "No lets not ruin the championship" or "No worries, let Ferrari continue, they only had the intellectual property of McLaren for half the year in their possession" - To all those people who have continued to voice their support for McLaren during this time, and their support for the FIA's verdict, I have one thing to say. We have Rules/laws and punishments for a specific reason. If we let people continue to cheat what is the point of having any regulations of which to abide by.

McLaren has been found guilty of theft let them face the punishment. I reckon the FIA with held a sanction again Mclaren for the very purpose of making the fans unhappy. They really wanted this season to run without a hitch. However that is no longer possible. I think dealing with this matter in a prudent manner can actually enhance the sport's credibility in the long run. If McLaren are held accountible for their actions and given a punishment that fits the crime (2 - 5 race ban with a fine, imo) then the FIA will not look like a governing body which can be bypassed by monetary, political, or social pressures, like the UN, World Bank, have certainly become.

Some people here, mostly the Ferrari fans and apparently you too Marco, are forgetting that not McLaren stole the plans, but Mike Coughlan did. McLaren was not behind this at all. Only Coughlan and Neal saw the plans, so THEY should be punished, and hard. Fines, banning, that sort of things. And not 200.000 bucks each, no, it should be a big fine, 2 million or more. An amount that hurts them.

well stepney has now turned up the heat by saying someone is setting up mclaren and him.

He claims ferrari are spying on him and someone else sent the info and not him and he will prove it.

All this could back fire on ferrari.

But i bet mclaren get a ban now.

Who cares was that person who stole the plans Mike, Kimi, Todt & his thai-girlfriend or Santa Claus. Fact is that McLaren worker did get those plans and he and his team are last persons on this planet who shud have those. Already that is enought for punishing.

And its good joke that those plans havent been used any possible way.. No.. Coughan only readed those when going to toilet and did forget everything what he readed after coming out. Sure nothing of that information did get used.. Sure "he was saving those only to bring secrets to Honda when he possibly moves there in year 2015" and did show those to his team members just for having laugh at boring monday morning. Or maybe he bought those just as bedtime-story-book for his childrens (if he even have any).

And if McLaren will get banned it wud atleast prove that FIA doesnt allow allking illegal things to happen in F1. And that would be better for reputation of F1 than just forgetting everything like unfortunately happens in many cases.

Kimi is last person who I want to win championship but in this case it wud be more fair than let McLaren to win this way.


Actually Ferrari shud get banned too because of making thatkind trap for McLaren..

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2007 11:00PM by IWE.

What gets me is Mclaren have offered as much help to the FIA to solve this as they can, and yet most of the Ferrari fans still moan about the result!!!!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Its clear what ferrari want and they are not going to stop until mclaren get banned. When ever they are behind another team its always something the other team are doing wrong its never them.

Yet again Max has done what ferrari ask.

Mclaren have offered ferrari everything to get this clear up yet that say no.

Stepney asked to speak to ferrari they said no.

Why did ferrari not go through all this effort with Toyota?

Mclaren only got found guilty of having the plans on a techincality and that is mike was employed by them, simply as that.

Todt is saying things that happened in the meeting that are not meant to be true, ferrari have leaked things to the press that they were not meant to. Todt said Ron said he had seen the plans, when Max has said Ron said he saw an email that tipped them off but this was not the plans.

Mclaren have finally said what was said in the meeting as has Max and its very different from what Todt is saying.

They are doing as much harm to them as to mclaren and f1 as alot of people that dont even support mclaren have had enough now. Even ferrari fans on other sites are saying ferrari are being really unproffesional. I fully understand why ferrari are pissed off but they should go after the people who took the plans and copied them not after people who have never seen them, or they can not prove they have seen them,

Ferrari are not so squeeky clean, maybe the fia will admit ferrari were illegal in the 1st race and change the result that would shut them up.

Mclaren were tipped off about the flexi floor just as ferrari and other were tipped off about the 2nd break pedal in the mclaren.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 02:53AM by marcl.

as a team principal you are responsible for your workers actions. Ferrari was responsible for Stephany, they did all they could, criminal charges, investigation and dismissal. McLaren has at least two employees who have seen and held these documents, yet they were not disposed of. BTW they are not the janitorial staff, they are senior members of the team. Regardless, the team is responsible for the actions of these individuals, Ferrari had to uncover it, while Mclaren said they would help, yet didnt seem to do much. So, lets see, hmmm, Mclaren are clean because they said they would help out with the investigation? Because they didnt get rid of these documents earlier? because they didnt do what spyker did and as soon as the second party in the team found out they should have taken it to Ron Denis, and then to the FIA (ASAP) but failed to do so?

So just so I understand this you guys believe that. If A Williams employee called up a BMW employee one day and said "Yo man, I am here snorting this great stuff you want it" and the BMW guy responds "Hook it up homes" The next day 20 pounds of blow is sent to BMW headquarters, and everyone is snorting it, just a taste, or they are laughing at the guys snorting it and saying "Yo we gonna get in trouble get rid of that stuff", keep in mind Dr. Mario Thiessen doesnt know about it. All of a sudden, Williams uncovers that one of their employees was snorting Coke in the factory and fire him and file legal action against him. It soon comes out that some how BMW is involved in this and it is suspected that coke may have been sent to BMW. Mario Thiessen says"We will get to the bottom of this, I dont like drugs" He takes a walk through his factory, and sees a couple of people with their eyes red, a bit of powder under their noses, he desides to ignore it. Williams then holds a press conference saying "Coke was sent through the stoner employee to the BMW factory and we know who the guy is" The police raid BMW and find coke, loads of it.

Who is at fault?
a) Ferrari *(which most of you would answer)
b) The BMW team
c) The FIA
d) Lets leave it alone, cause in all honesty BMW are 3rd in the constructors and it would just throw things into a mess if they got suspended from a couple of races or the whole season. We forgive them.

Some people here, mostly the Ferrari fans and apparently you too Marco, are forgetting that not McLaren stole the plans, but Mike Coughlan did.

Incorrect. Coughlan stole nothing. stepney sold (or gave) them to him. Coughlan did NOT break into Ferrari (physically, or via a computer system) and steal plans.

People are forgetting here that if McLaren are to be held responsible for Coughlans actions then Ferrari must be held accountable for Stepneys actions, and both broke the same rules, laws, and contracts as each other.

Like it or not, the FACT of the matter is that this situation has happened before with Ferrari, with Toyota. However Toyota commited the worse crime of actually copying major ammounts of the car. Ferrari done a very stupid thing and failed to push the trial against Toyota and Toyota recived no sporting penalty. Now it happens again (Ferrari need to look at internal security) and the situation isnt as bad as Toyota (as there is no proof in the slightest that McLaren copied anything from them, and common sense says its impossible to have in the time frame given) and Ferrari suddenly want to apply the laws again? Ha, I dont think so fellas. Laws dont apply only when you want them to, and they certainly dont apply only agaisnt some people/teams and not others. For Ferrari to think its ok to not do this to Toyota, but to do it to McLaren when the situation is lesser is unacceptable, and Ferrari were stupid to think they should be able to do this.

Secondly, anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense knows McLaren never copied anything. Not only did only 2 members see them (and one of those had them for a matter of seconds, not anywhere near enough time to even look at 1 page of the booklet, which was massive), but the development cycle of a Formula 1 car is so long that it would be impossible for McLaren to implement anything they could have learnd from the documents in the time frame given. And that has been stated by several team members from teams not involved in the situation.

Its also been proven that no technical data at all has made its way to McLaren when McLaren provided all of the development data for the trial and no evidence could be found.

So again, if McLaren are to be fined for breech of the regulations, Ferrari are in breech of the same ones and should also be fined. however a sporting penalty agaisnt the team or drivers is unacceptable since there is no evidence of any data being used by McLaren, thus, the sport has not been comprimised.

If anyone here is suggesting that McLaren alone should be penalised, then your ignoring the very basics of the rules, regulations and contracts. If you are suggesting that McLaren recive a sporting penalty for an offense there is no evidence of them committing, then I'm sorry chaps, but the world doesnt work that way. Its innocent until proven guilty, and McLaren were found guilty of having 1 team member with the plans (which Ferrari provided - remember, they must take responsibility for there team members) and found not guilty of having used this data.

End Of.

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So again, if McLaren are to be fined for breech of the regulations, Ferrari are in breech of the same ones and should also be fined. however a sporting penalty agaisnt the team or drivers is unacceptable since there is no evidence of any data being used by McLaren, thus, the sport has not been comprimised.

Ferrari has had nothing to gain from there data being stolen, what regulation are they in breach of when it comes to industrial espionage against themselves?

Its also been proven that no technical data at all has made its way to McLaren when McLaren provided all of the development data for the trial and no evidence could be found.

No argument there but not using the data on their car deoesn't mean they can't take advantage of the information. Not that I think the bosses of McLaren would ever do such a thing but you can't ignore the probability of it nonetheless.

Ferrari has had nothing to gain from there data being stolen, what regulation are they in breach of when it comes to industrial espionage against themselves?

Gain has nothing to do with it. However contactually, Stepney will be under NDA and a whole host of other contracts making the very action completly illegal. However when it comes to the sporting regulations I dont belive its legal for Ferrari to share there technical data with rival teams like that. And before anyone says "It isnt ferrari, its stepney", no. If McLaren are to be held responsible for 1 team members actions then Ferrari must be held responsible for his actions.

Stepneys actions of selling or giving plans to other teams is just as illegal in both a sporting and legal way as what Coughlan did.

No argument there but not using the data on their car deoesn't mean they can't take advantage of the information.

This would be valid if McLaren had seen the information, but once again, there is no proof of thise. First off, only Coughlan had extensivly looked at the information and only one other member had actually seen the documents in the "flesh" (however its again unproven that he actually seen the data in it). Given nobody else in McLaren had seen the information and only 1 or 2 more new about it until it becamse public, its safe to say that nobody in a position of power had any of the information to there disposel.

Quite simply, only Coughlan had the information and the development cycle and his position in the team meant none of this could have possibly have been used by him. Since nobody else had it, that rules out McLaren having used the information. But of course no evidence was found anyway.

There is far too much double standards here, and again it is from Ferrari. When this happened with Toyota they didnt care. Now its happened with McLaren and they do care. They also have taken the position that they shouldnt be held responsible for Stepneys actions but McLaren should be held responsible for Coughlans actions. There is also the point that an appeal technically is not possible in this situation, but it has somehow happened anyway. How is this seen as fair from anyone?

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You make fair points, still with regards to Stephney, Ferrari IMO have taken responsibility for his actions by firing him, taking legal action, etc as Marco1 pointed out above.

If anyone in F1 thinks they haven't done enough or should receive a sanction for it I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.

I haven't read all 14 pages but being chief designer maybe he "suggested" some things not to be done to the McLaren car that were to the Ferrari to other engineers

Dave well said that is what I have been trying to say only u get the point across a lot better

Date: August 01, 2007 08:11AM
Posted by: chrislewis (IP Logged)

You make fair points, still with regards to Stephney, Ferrari IMO have taken responsibility for his actions by firing him, taking legal action, etc as Marco1 pointed out above.

McLaren have done the same as Ferrari, and both will most likely be banned from taking part in FIA sanctioned events also. So since McLaren have equalled Ferraris actions, should they call it quits now?

If Ferrari are appealing saying Coughlan represents McLaren as a whole and therefore McLaren as a whole must be punished, then Ferrari as a whole must be punished for the actions stephney took, whether he has been sacked from the team or not. He was part of the team when the illegal actions were commited, therefore under Ferraris logic he should be punished as a Ferrari member, not as an individual.

One rule for everybody at all times, not selective as Ferrari wish to be doing.

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I agree with you Dave, but i'm not so sure about your point that Ferrari should shut up about the McLaren case, just because they didn't complain about Toyota.

they had nothing to gain by complaining against Toyota, Toyota are a mid-field team at best, not threatening to Ferrari at all in championship terms. McLaren are serious championship rivals, so of course they will complain about anything they can about McLaren.

yes the technical regs and laws may have been broken by Toyota, but Ferrari had nothing to gain from taking them to court.


and if we ignore what Ferrari did or didn't have to gain on-track in the Toyota case, just because they didn't complain about Toyota doesn't mean they are out of order to complain about McLaren.

if someone punches you in the street, and you decide not to report them to the police, it doesn't mean that if someone else punches you another day you can't report that person, does it? that's the feeling i'm getting from your post, that you feel they're out of order to do this against McLaren, when they didn't against Toyota.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2007 01:43PM by Muks_C.