suspended mclaren employee is mike coughlan

Ok, give Aldo Costa an equivalent volume of equivalent information.

But that's probably too radical.

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Why should Aldo Costa have it? Who's to say McLaren ever used it? This isn't some little game based on presumptions. It's a billion dollar business. You can't play tit-for-tat games. You don't get companies playing counter-fraud with each other, do you?

Court was the only way to decide this. As it turns out, there wasn't any or enough evidence that McLaren have benefited in any way from this, so why not just leave it there?

Yeah why not leave it at the point where the burden of proof is set so high that any wrongdoing is almost impossible to prove and when caught it's the actions of a single rogue employee.

Thanks, makes me feel so much better.

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Do you know any different?

I know enough to see that this sort of thing should be stopped and not turned a blind eye to as per the current ruling.

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No one's turning a blind eye. You can't just make evidence because what's going on doesn't feel right...

Innocent until proven guilty. If there is not enough evidence then they cant be proven guilty. Its how the modern civilised society works.

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what about mike couglans affidavit? is there any metion of the fia using it?

dont know how true this was, but reports say that in it, he revealed that he showed some team members the documents, but they all said to him to get rid of it.

that could have revealed a few thing i think

i'm a huge kimi fan, which makes me a huge ferrari fan, and i would have been disapointed and really angry if mclaren were docked points or kicked out, it would mean that a ferarri driver would win by default, and i don't want kimi's first championship to be won that way

i also think that the documents would be out of date, firstly they would need to test it then stick it on the car. idealy they would have needed it around this time last year to take advantage as this is the time teams start focusing and tableing ideas for next years car.

"No one's turning a blind eye. You can't just make evidence because what's going on doesn't feel right..."

So i take it you're ok with a sort of (no) sanction that leaves it possible for similar (and more sinister) cases to happen in the future?

Well i'm not.

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TripleM, calm down. The people involved will get what's coming to them, if indeed they are found guilty in the preceedings. Surely prison is a big enough deterrant?

A bit more serious than loss of points.

As Dave so rightly said, 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

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they have not turned a blind eye at all, there simply was no evidence to say mclaren used the plans that Mike had at home.

Mclaren were found guilty of having the plans, only due to the fact mike was employed by mclaren.

Mike will be sorted out by the legal system. the hearing was about mclaren using the plans and they did not.

Ferrari will have to accept this and move on just like mclaren do, and there could be a fall out from this with regard to sponcers.

What a good day for F1. Finally FIA with sense. Mclaren or at least Coughlan had docs he shouldn't have had and the team are responsible for employee actions. However, at least the FIA examined the information available and couldn't show the Mclaren team not an individual behaved wrongly therefore no punishment.

I am a fan of Mclaren, as well as other teams and don't really like to see one team always winning unless it is a Brit driver. However, i have tried to look at what EVIDENCE is public and not speculation and the whole Ferrari story just doesn't seem right and i spend my working life assessing the credability of what someone is saying. They today have protested very strongly which for a team who aren't whiter than white, only Williams come close, this is starting too look just a little too much. Almost like they want to keep Mclaren worrying about the legal side not the racing. Do they have proof Mclaren as a team have used the documents or can they only prove an employee id who seems to have been looking to leave. Wouldn't this have been interesting if before it all became public Coughlan had left Mclaren for Honda be it with a few months gardening leave. Would Ferrari have complained so much then.

Ferrari you win some dampers 06, Monza qualifying and you lose some 2007.




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welshjim22 Wrote:
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> Ferrari you win some dampers 06, Monza qualifying
> and you lose some 2007.

It's a bit more than that though. This is the very integrity of a team being brought into question, no some rule which went in 1 team's favour.

I can fully understand why Ferrari are furious. You'd be inhumane not to be in such circumstances. However now it's gone beyond a sporting case - it's now a legal one, hopefully just against the 2 (main) individuals in question, and not the teams.

What some of you seem to be comparing this to is body work on the car.

Today's decision has absolutly nothing to do with running a flexible plate underneath the car. This is a legal matter that involved one team containing the documents which belonged to another team. Nothing less.

In this situation Mclaren's Chief Designer had in his posession since prior to the start of the season up until the Canadian/American Grandprix confidential data belonging to Ferrari. Whether there was a benefit or not is not the point. You can always disprove such things in court. "Yes we have a similar rear wing to Ferrari's. Wind Tunnel Testing has shown that it is the fastest solution." just like that. Throw a bunch of pages of information regarding the test and bang. Now in no way am I even suggesting that. We are all smart enough and bright enough to understand that Formula One is a much more complex sport than just copy and pasting what someone else is doing to what we are doing and so forth. Indeed the data could have been used in less obvious areas. As people have said earlier discovering the Ferrari's weakness. The leaked Data from the Coughlan letter to Ferrari seem to suggest more than one person knew about this. Another important situation has also been brought up today. The only reason that Mclaren are looking into the matter is because Ferrari brought it to everyone's attention a couple of months ago. If Ferrari hadnt started the internal investigation Coughlan and Mclaren would still be in posession of these documents. As Coughlan would still be employed and working day to day on the Mclaren.


Anyway thats just the beginning of it. I have much more but little time to discuss this stuff right now. Its very disappointing what has happened today. What the FIA has done instead is reward big business. Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Honda, etc, would have required much more information in court to be proven guilty. But I bet a team like Spyker or even Super Auguri would have been kicked out of the championship.

What we have seen today is The FIA bending over backwards. A team has CLEARLY Cheated in the most disturbing way possible (Through the intellectual property of another team) and has gotten away with it. At best a two race ban for the Mclaren team would have been appropriate. Because at the end of the day, A McLaren employee had in his posession intellectual property belonging to Ferrari, with no intention of getting rid of it. Whether it was used or not is what Paper Shredders were made for.

I agree 100% with your post, wheter Mclaren took advantage of the documents or not is pointless, but the fact is that if Ferrari never knew, Coughlan would've still got the documents into his possesion meaning Mclaren as well... but still you read a lot of stupids ignorants posts trying to blame Ferrari for this, i mean how? i wonder if the situation was the other way around what the people would've been saying about Ferrari..

anyways is so stupid to come to a conclusion, FIA first charged Mclaren for it, and today they where found guilty, however no penalty was given, if this is a joke i still don't get it

I do think the FIA should have fined mclaren but as some people have said before Toyota and Spyker were not fined either and Toyota used the bloody plans.

Ferrari have done nothing wrong but they really do need to sort out their security. This is now the 3rd time someone else has had the ferrari plans.

marcl Wrote:
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> I do think the FIA should have fined mclaren but
> as some people have said before Toyota and Spyker
> were not fined either and Toyota used the bloody
> plans.

I don't believe the sporting case could have done anything. I think it's the next step which will decide any legal punishments.

I see the point people are making that Mclaren had the information weather they used it is not easy to prove or disprove. However, if you punish Mclaren because of the actions of a member of staff without evidence to show the information was shared could you not punish Ferrari because one of there members of staff gave the information. The FIA has stated it is the team who is responsible for the actions of there staff. Why did Coughlan talk to Honda? If he was planning to leave it is reasonable to believe the information was not to benefit Mclaren but another team a future employer. I doubt he actually offered directly this information when meeting Fry though.

We have Ferrari fans protecting Ferrai and Mclaren fans believing Mclaren should not be punished thats all. None of us have the full facts but i expect the FIA had as clear as picture as could be expected. Persoanlly i believe the decision was correct. They are guilty because they are responsible for there staff even if they don't know what they are doing according to the rules, but without evidence they were aware or benefitted they should not be punished.




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One question that does not to be asked is did the information go both ways? someone at ferrari gave the ferrari plans to Mike now did he give this person the mclaren plans?

Chances are if he did they would have been destroyed by the person but who knows.

"Why did Coughlan talk to Honda? If he was planning to leave it is reasonable to believe the information was not to benefit Mclaren but another team a future employer. I doubt he actually offered directly this information when meeting Fry though."

Good point Jim, it could be likely that the information he recieved would be taken to Honda as both Coughlan and Stepney were looking for employment there. In which case Mclaren could not have used the documents in any way.