is this is ur way of thinking?.......i hope not!
Posted by assadof1
but those of us with more than 1 brain cell understand that not every muslim is a terrorist, far from it in fact (it is only a very very small minority of idiots who do bad things in the name of islam), so in the same way, you guys should not think that all westerners are against you or your country or religion, because the majority of us are not.
you can't have double standards by hating all westerners and western companies, but then complain that all westerners hate all muslims, when both of these things are incorrect.
and @ Dave, that quote was in that "The Root Of All Evil?" programme too, Prof. Richard Dawkins said something similar.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2006 05:31PM by Muks_C.
you can't have double standards by hating all westerners and western companies, but then complain that all westerners hate all muslims, when both of these things are incorrect.
and @ Dave, that quote was in that "The Root Of All Evil?" programme too, Prof. Richard Dawkins said something similar.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2006 05:31PM by Muks_C.
why attack KFC for example? although it is an American company, it has no political connection with the US Government, so there is no reason to attack it, apart from to show hatred to all things Western
There is no point attacking Hakkinenf1, Muks_C. It's not his fault this has happened and there is no point asking him about mob mentallity.
Example, the US congress renamed french fries into "freedom fries". Now this is not a mob (or maybe it is :
. Now you please explain why they did this.
Otherwise please stop asking rherotical questions of a guy who can bearly speak english.
There is no point attacking Hakkinenf1, Muks_C. It's not his fault this has happened and there is no point asking him about mob mentallity.
Example, the US congress renamed french fries into "freedom fries". Now this is not a mob (or maybe it is :
. Now you please explain why they did this.Otherwise please stop asking rherotical questions of a guy who can bearly speak english.
From what I have read, he was provoked into a response.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2006 06:15PM by chrislewis.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2006 06:15PM by chrislewis.
if anything, Hakkinenf1 and Assad are provoking us by continually defending all the fall-out and violence around the world caused by the cartoons, yet they take on a "holier than thou" attitude and say we're all going to hell and deserve a 9/11-style attack.
and these guys can speak English well enough to have a discussion and get most of their points across, so its "game on" as far as asking "rherotical" (rhetorical
) questions.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
and these guys can speak English well enough to have a discussion and get most of their points across, so its "game on" as far as asking "rherotical" (rhetorical
) questions.RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Quote
Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things it takes religion.
This argument is fallacious. Without religion there wouldn't be terms like "good" or "evil" at all. It would simply be a matter of "right" or "wrong".
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
DaveEllis said
"Lie, again. Stop posting such rubbish. Your extremist views are sickening "
exactly,that is what i mean,no matter what i have said,or what will i say,
DaveEllis will still say that i am an Extremist.that kind of Generaliztion i was talking about.
Muks_C said
-----
this may look a bit childish,my answer is that u started it,i mean,in realty,Muslems were not the first to show haterd ,it was other wise,i can't say,when they did this,and when they did this,because its millions of things that happens every day,to each muslem,a scene in a movie,a news paper artical,
an interview,
imagine that i was watching 20\20 ,and they put a report,that Muslems had got (the sympson) on MBC,i was intersted to see what they are going to say.
theyinterviewed the channel,and they took some opinions,and i was shocked when they said(we wonder how in the muslems world,there is going to be beer and pork on tv)...i instatly was tansformed into the arabic man on the camel walking the desert,man....!!!?are they ignorant or what?????the simpsons was shown of the same freaking channel that shows (Buffy,Angel,24,scrubs point pleasnte)
we are talking about a big name in the USA (20\20),and this is how far they can thing,(how muslems gonna be allowerd to see a drawing of a beer on tv)
i was realy disgusted.)
muslems don't hate westners,that rage was just to show we were angry at the countries,who allowed this drawings to be puplished.
(if it was to me,i would have had a peacfull marsh)
----------------------------
"if anything, Hakkinenf1 and Assad are provoking us by continually defending all the fall-out and violence around the world caused by the cartoons, yet they take on a "holier than thou" attitude and say we're all going to hell and deserve a 9/11-style attack"
ll going to hell and deserve a 9/11-style attack"
when did i say that???
i even put parts from our holy book showing that in Islam its forbidden to kill anyone,unless it was war.
either u have not red my posts,or ur gearbox has stuck at the (muslems are terrorests)gear.
chrislewis
---------------
"Otherwise please stop asking rherotical questions of a guy who can bearly speak english"
lol
i am a third year english literature student.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
"Lie, again. Stop posting such rubbish. Your extremist views are sickening "
exactly,that is what i mean,no matter what i have said,or what will i say,
DaveEllis will still say that i am an Extremist.that kind of Generaliztion i was talking about.
Muks_C said
-----
this may look a bit childish,my answer is that u started it,i mean,in realty,Muslems were not the first to show haterd ,it was other wise,i can't say,when they did this,and when they did this,because its millions of things that happens every day,to each muslem,a scene in a movie,a news paper artical,
an interview,
imagine that i was watching 20\20 ,and they put a report,that Muslems had got (the sympson) on MBC,i was intersted to see what they are going to say.
theyinterviewed the channel,and they took some opinions,and i was shocked when they said(we wonder how in the muslems world,there is going to be beer and pork on tv)...i instatly was tansformed into the arabic man on the camel walking the desert,man....!!!?are they ignorant or what?????the simpsons was shown of the same freaking channel that shows (Buffy,Angel,24,scrubs point pleasnte)
we are talking about a big name in the USA (20\20),and this is how far they can thing,(how muslems gonna be allowerd to see a drawing of a beer on tv)
i was realy disgusted.)
muslems don't hate westners,that rage was just to show we were angry at the countries,who allowed this drawings to be puplished.
(if it was to me,i would have had a peacfull marsh)
----------------------------
"if anything, Hakkinenf1 and Assad are provoking us by continually defending all the fall-out and violence around the world caused by the cartoons, yet they take on a "holier than thou" attitude and say we're all going to hell and deserve a 9/11-style attack"
ll going to hell and deserve a 9/11-style attack"
when did i say that???
i even put parts from our holy book showing that in Islam its forbidden to kill anyone,unless it was war.
either u have not red my posts,or ur gearbox has stuck at the (muslems are terrorests)gear.
chrislewis
---------------
"Otherwise please stop asking rherotical questions of a guy who can bearly speak english"
lol
i am a third year english literature student.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
by that u meant i am an extremist,anyone will tell that,
i didn't mean (so by that ,we must kill u all),i meant it as a sad fact.
i will ask u one thing,when u see a muslem with the whole muslem package(Beard,long clothes,a muslem hat) what is the first thing that comes into ur mind.speak honstly,weather other ppl meant it or not,terroresim is just simply connected to the Islamic look.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
i didn't mean (so by that ,we must kill u all),i meant it as a sad fact.
i will ask u one thing,when u see a muslem with the whole muslem package(Beard,long clothes,a muslem hat) what is the first thing that comes into ur mind.speak honstly,weather other ppl meant it or not,terroresim is just simply connected to the Islamic look.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
funny thing:
//Verily, those who annoy Allâh and His Messenger (SAW) Allâh has cursed them in this world, and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating torment. (Al-Ahzab 33:57)//
this is part 57 of the (Al_Ahzab-33-) part,its number (57) is the same starting numbers of the Danish products serial number.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
//Verily, those who annoy Allâh and His Messenger (SAW) Allâh has cursed them in this world, and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating torment. (Al-Ahzab 33:57)//
this is part 57 of the (Al_Ahzab-33-) part,its number (57) is the same starting numbers of the Danish products serial number.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
Ok guys.,.
it didn't take me a lot of time to answer,but it took me a lot of time to start answering.
i hope u read all
B-tone said:
Britain planetd Israel in the Middle east and mader sure it will stay there,
they were four countries that were just out of the (british,French,Italian)ouccupation,the even fought with cheated weapons (long issure ,hope we have a new thread for it).
Incase Arabs occupied Jersulem???LOL...funny.
the reason arab didn't attack Jeruslem was because the Holly (Masjed al-Aqssa)
is there (Holy place for Muslems,Christians)the same reason Sallah-Aldien,order his shoulders not to shoot stones far into the city.
Britians worked with Arabs,well they worked masacrs on arabs,its sad to see how someone's mind can be manuplated.
"arab soldiers didn't know why they were there and weren't willing to die over an arab scrap for a small piece of land"
for Arabs and Muslems (Jersulem) is the second most important spot in the wrold,after Meccah.
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Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allâh) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubî, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad SAW) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad SAW) of Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer[]. (Al-Isra 17:1)
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"of course the israeli army improved over time, but were attacjed again, and never beaten. israel even took large araes off their neighbours. "
they had all the support of world power,as every country wanted to get red of jews ,so they made sure they get the land.
---------------------
LS said
"We saw a few days ago that certain parts of the muslim faith are bent on destruction of the west, yet they live over here, they have'nt intergrated into our way of life or even bothered trying"
-----------------------------------------------------------
maybe they live there to get a descent paycheck.
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ChrisB said:
Some days you just wonder what the @#$%& the world has turned into when the government of a powerful country like Iran can be so @#$%& up. i mean...what?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and Bush is the right man to run the most powerfull country.the man had a two hours movie(F 9\11) just to show how a much of a stupide man he is.
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Muck_C said:
sending muslim children to specialist muslim-only schools is the most stupid idea to me, because when they grow up and get a job, are they going to work in a muslim-only workplace? instead of learning to interact with people differnet to themselves, they are cocooned in their own world, and this can only breed mis-trust of others in them.
----------------------------------
they have to be taught Quran,and they live bettwen them out side the school,so u can't say they are not interacting
-------------------------------------------------------
Morbid said:
"you read the muslims texts from the period of the crusades in the holy land.................................. affairs that had little or even nothing at all to do with muslims or Islam. "
great post,u know a lot about this stuff,but don't forgot that the cruasades were a big demand of the pop at the time,which instanlty makes it a relegious war,and even told churches to tell soldiers (that the many muslems u kill,the more Jesus will love u,and let u into heaven)why didn't he told them to talk to them about Christianty,if the purpose was to bring faith to the unfaithfulls,as i remember that maybe and italian poet said at the time after the cruasader entered (jersulem) that the scene was horrible,even little chlidern were slaughterd-------------------------------
Vader:
This might be a bit far fetched, but I think it is interesting to see that the last time a "united Europe" acted in a religious motivated war was roughly 500 somewhat years ago. Muslims are now acting motivated by religion and Islam is roughly 500 years younger than Christianity - that means they would be 500 years back, exactly at a time when we - the western world - where having the crusades. Maybe Islam still needs 500 years
------------------------------------------------
how exaclty those extra 500 hundered year helped christianty,its not a forumula 1 car,years won't bring more developements.
===================================================
ZaZ said:
"Claiming respect and not respecting others will never work of course.
Tolerance is essential when we want to live next to eachother. In the old days it wasn't that much of a problem (in world wide terms), but now we have television, radio and internet and the world suddenly got a lot smaller.
Don't try to change eachother.
My 'mother in law' is a Catholic priest, but yet I'm doing her daughter although we aren't married.
If she had a choice, she'd like to see it different. But she doesn't have a choice and respects the way i and mrs zaz see it and we get along quite well"
------------------------------------------------
that the problem,that way,all people should be selfish,(i said this example befor)imagine me sittiong in front of a building,u come one way,and a gang is waiting for u in the other,i will try my best to warn u about that gang,but instead,u say,lighten up and let every body live his life.
like ur mother in law,she knows that adultery leads to hell,but she says nothing to her daughter,she only care bout her self if she realy beleives that aduleter goes to hell,god forbid maybe her daughter dies today.who knows,can she realy sleep at night knowing she said nothing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I admit I'm not really into the subject and I'm just a common guy.
But the world is full of common people and it's that exact same group which needs to get along to make it all work.
It's really easy if we want to and nobody has to sacrifice anything.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
thats the problem,the subject of hell,is far more dangerous than to only pass by and say hello,u spend tow hours watching an F1 race,give an hour a week just to think,about God ,hell and heaven,read,do some researchs
=================================================
chrislewis said:
"With regards to the comic, I believe Muslim feel as they have been targeted since 9/11 and that they have a deep sense of pride and feel humiliated and targeted by the events of the past few years,hence the outrage".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
true.....
================================================
fongu said:
"If any Christian understand it fully, i'd like to hear off them "
--------------------------
why would God be Jesus and the holy spirite at the same time??why??or as some Christians said that God came in Jesus Body,so we wouldn't be scared,in my country alone,we have four relegious parts(not Muslems)claiming that God came to them in the body of the one who they worship.
===============================================
Muck_C:
if you're suggesting that it comes from a "God", and then is developed further through upbringing, then how come although i don't believe in god, i am not a criminal, but some criminals are religious?
The _F1_Lunatic :
"Satan tempts them."
-------------------------
exactly.
=====================================
Fungo said:
"It really isnt the same God - just dabbling into any of the 'holy books' will tell you that they are not the same. Original Judaism was Christianity, but they lost the plot before Christ came. For a start, Christianity will say that Jesus is God - something that sets it apart. We would also say that God is personal - interacting with people - again something that is unique to Christianity (although the Jews should believe the same ) "
--------------------------
exactly,why dance about the subject,Muslems only worshps God,no jesus,no Buda,no God is a human Body.
Holy Quran:
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&No son (or offspring or children) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Al-Mu'minun 23:91)
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---------------------------------
marcl said:
"these views are what is causing the problems around the world.
isreal was a @#$%& whole, no proper water no drains nothing. Now its all built up the land is wanted. "
Israel reminds me with Redbull,they sucseeded because of three elements,Money,Money and Money.
=============================================
Ferrari_Fuhrer:"It's also worth pointing out that Jews were living in the land of Israel long before Islam even came about."
that means the Americans should be kicked out of America,and the Autralians out of Australia
==============================================
Vader Said:"If God gave us the ability to laugh, why shouldn't we use it? Why should it be a sin to look at the bright sight of religion?"
he also gave us the abiltiy to Kill,commite adultry.
who is against lughing,or Porphet (Muhamad ,SAW)used to joke,here is one of the stories:
an old women came to our prophet and asked him,(am i going to heave?) and he answerd (old women do not enter heaven) and the old women started crying so he said(because of course when u enter heaven u will be young again)
====================================
saxypamelia Said:
"I would just like to add that these cartoons that have been published of prophet Muhammed (pbuh) go to show how imature and ignorate some people can be. Islam is NOT a religion of hate and war as the media would have people believe it to be...in fact it is the opposite. It teaches love, family values, modesty, submission to the ONE and ONLY God "Allah". Allah is arabic meaning God. Yes it is true ALL religions have their extremist.....BUT....does that give ANY of us the right to attack each others religions? Unless you take the time to sit down and study the by-laws of anothers religion and learn their beliefs, what gives you the right to say what they do and don't believe in? I am a former christian and I converted to being a muslim sometime back, and I must say....this is this BEST decision I have ever made praise be to Allah. Some of you may ask why are we so upset with these cartoons? If someone took a picture of the pope or Jesus (pbuh) and done the same things with them would you not feel the same if you have the same love and devotion towards your religion? What many people don't understand with Islam....its not just a religion with us, its our way of life...EVERYTHING we do revolves around Allah. Just as in ALL religions there are good muslims and bad muslims.....but we ALL must answer for our wrong doings. Just a little reminder for the christians out there attacking us muslims...there is a scripture in your bible that says "judge not least you be judged accordingly".
----------------------
you said it all man.
============================
"Its funny how Islam has to consider the Bible a holy book. Why? The Bibles clear - add to any of these words and you heap up an intense judgement. Within the Bible itself - theres no contradictions and one aim - to point to Jesus Christ, and that theres nothing you can do to gain your salvation. That alone sets it way apart from any other faith ever."
Beacuse in the Holy Qoran is was mentioned as a book from God,but as i said it was altered by people who wanted power,
Fongu Said:
in the Holy Quran:
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Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (Al-Baqarah 2:79)
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==========================
Vader said:
"I would like to see assadof1s response to this. Why has nobody run berzerk in Egypt? Maybe the cartoons were really just an excuse to let out a general hatred towards us westerners? "
because they were shown so ppl can see what the Danish NP did.
u have to undersant something,its forbidden for us to Draw our prophit,in my whole life,i have never seen one drawing to our prophet,so drawing him and mocking him,is too much.
==========================
Fongu said:"Theres not anything i can write now that is going to persuade you or anyone else that the Bible is the standard of truth. But what I will say is that the Bible claims this for itself, the proof is within itself. It claims that God wrote it, through the inspiration of its 40 or so authors,"
well that is not the case in the Quran,the holy quran has a lot of proofs inside it that shows it was send by God.
but to say God inspired 40 ppl to write it???why???why not one or two,man ,we have minds to think.
isn't this the biggest evidence that ppl altered the bible for there owen interstes.
From the holy Quran
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Do they not then consider the Qur'ân carefully? Had it been from other than Allâh, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. (An-Nisa 4:82)
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Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'ân, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." (Al-Isra 17:88)
And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Qur'ân, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief. (Al-Isra 17:89)
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Do they not then think deeply in the Qur'ân, or are their hearts locked up (from understanding it)? (Muhammad 47:24)
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Fongu said:
How can you claim that Jesus is just a prophet (by what He said and claimed and did(which raising himself from the dead must make Him the greatest prophet ever)) and yet He is refuted here? How can you approve of what Jesus did and yet refute everything He claimed in the next sentence? How can 'Allah' say that He has a Son at Jesus' baptism - yet here Allah is claimed to be far above having a son. "
don't relate the Quran to the Bible in the matter of Jesus because as i sadi the Bible is altered,int the holy Quran,not once that Jesus is mentioed as the some of God,and he didn't raise him self form the dead,he raised another person,so what its God's abillity being put in Jesus ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
read the next part very carefully,although its long but its very important
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ethistes asked our prophet to split the moon to show them that he is realy send by God,so he did
form the holy Quran:
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The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). (Al-Qamar 54:1)
And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: "This is continuous magic." (Al-Qamar 54:2)
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so in the modern times there was a scinetest who had a muslem friend,this muslem firend gave him the Holy Quran as a gift,later on he opended it and read the tow senectes i qouted above,so he laughed and closed the Qouran and never opended it again,three monthes later he was watching the BBC and they showed a program about the moon ,they said that the moon has rocks spread a round him in one line shows that the moon was slpitted once,the guy jumped in the air unbelieaving,(story quoted from the scintest him self .)i wrote it as i remember it.
why didn't Muslems say that Mohamad is a God.
----------------------------------------
the Jesus Miracls are mentiond in the Qouran this way:
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Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with RûhulQudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle[] and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, AlHikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' " (Al-Ma'idah 5:110)
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"He gives us concrete assurance - a faith that has a certain hope - because Jesus has provided a certain way in which we are blameless at the Day of Judgement.
"
Blameless,why did God created us for then,the story of Jesus taking away or sins is just another excause for human to take of themselves the Borden of not doing sins,
read this imaginery story:
there was a very powerfull King,but he was a good man,and his ppl who he allways gave them shelter and food,did nothing as he told them,they commicted all acts of horrible things,so one day he called them and said,here is my son ,take came,laugh at him,toture him,then cursfiy him,so i can forgive u all.
so tell me,is this a story to beleive??
---------------
in the holy Quran no one will earse any sin for u,
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And fear the Day (of Judgement) when no person shall avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from him, nor shall intercession be of use to him, nor shall they be helped. (Al-Baqarah 2:123)
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---------------------------
"You continue to deny that Christ was crucified - fine if He wasn't I'd be screwed on the Day of Judgement"
lol man,i was writting all serious ,then u made me laugh.
"and made God into a deceiver - one who makes mistakes. "
no,men do mistakes,the Bible is a book to tell people whome to worship and how,but Satanic games convencid men to deviret it.
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Mankind were one community and Allâh sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed. And only those to whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it after clear proofs had come unto them through hatred, one to another. Then Allâh by His Leave guided those who believed to the truth of that wherein they differed. And Allâh guides whom He wills to a Straight Path. (Al-Baqarah 2:213)
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----------------------------------------------------------------
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.
By this time Ishmael was long gone - is Mohammed part of the brethren? (maybe I'm wrong)
In Acts 7:37, Stephen applies this to Jesus. Scripture must tell us how to interpret Scripture. If this was Mohammed - then somethings wrong.
---------------------------
very important,i had a long artiacl for how that Prophet that was talked about was miss interperted,i will try my best for find that artical.
---------------------------------------------
"Sure Jesus was not like Moses - but before Moses there was no other prophet. Jesus did fulfil some prophetic roles which is true, but to expect he was exactly like Moses is a wrong assumption. "
Actually there was Abraham and others
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Has not the news reached you, of those before you, the people of Nûh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud? And those after them? None knows them but Allâh. To them came their Messengers with clear proofs, but they put their hands in their mouths (biting them from anger) and said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and we are really in grave doubt as to that to which you invite us (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism)." (Ibrahim 14:9)
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Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. If Allâh had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allâh had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved. If Allâh had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allâh does what He likes. (Al-Baqarah 2:253)
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---------------------------
"Yes he was rejected - by people in His own town, which the Bible says is down to their lack of faith (which alone saves). Actually under Moses - the people did not follow God's ways - and they died wondering around the desert."
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this is idintical to what we have in Islam
(Allâh) said: "Therefore it (this holy land) is forbidden to them for forty years; in distraction they will wander through the land. So be not sorrowful over the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh)." (Al-Ma'idah 5:26)
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and about mary
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And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
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Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
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Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
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---------------------------
Italicized Text
"i've read about 80% of the aforementioned article before i got bored. my replies up there somewhere"
Fongo said:
i hope u read all.
-----------------------------
"1 question though: even if the Torah/Septuagint/Old Testament were changed before Jesus - why did Jesus not correct any of it? For the New Testament - there have been quite a few manuscripts - and they are pretty consistent with each other from my understanding. In fact 2 complete manuscripts exist today that stretch back 2 centuries before the prophet Muhammad.
"
----------------------------------
even if Jesus corrected them,that dosn't mean that they can be changed back to be consistent with the changed Torah,
---------------------------------------
"Again - because of the way the Bible was written - because of its span through many years of writing through many authors in different ways - yet thoroughly consitent,
"
------------------------------------------------------
how hard can that Be??????????????????????
------------------------
"is staggering for a start - but what it claims for itself makes it a unique book. As mentioned above its all about Christ - who is God - who has come to offer a way into Heaven - it is not just a book of stories and a guide to how to live or to worship. "
-----------------------
of course,because it has some stories from the orginal Bible.
-------------------------------------------
"From what i understand of the Quran (I dont mean this to be an attack on Islam - but a defence of how you claimed the Bible has been altered) - The Kufic script with no vowels is the oldest of the Quranic manuscripts - allowing for ambigious and open interpretation - thus variants of the text were around - even till the mid-twentieth century when North Africa had a variant and the another with the rest of the Muslim world - until that dominated. "
-----------------------------------------------
no...not no vowels,it was not pointed like the point in the (i)...if i wrote Bible without a point on the (i),dosn't change anything???no...same as arabic.no points never changes the meaning.and the quran was also memroized.
-------------------------------------
" (I dont mean this to be an attack on Islam - but a defence of how you claimed the Bible has been altered)"
---------------------------------
don't worry about that as our propuse is to prove something.and plz don't hestar to post anything u want,
i will not be offended.
-------------------------------------
"What you have failed to realise is what Jesus has said in the Bible - his claim of Godship - the verses that speak of Him creating the universe (the active agent in creation)."
how did he creat the universe???wasn't he born later??much much later.
---------------
"You seem also to neglect that even though the authors of the Bible are human - God (being all powerful) can work through men"
----------------------------------
and also u seemed to negelect how many hypocrate befor said that God is speaking through them,why didn't he write it through Jesus.
----------------------------------------
" Despite the fact you have said the Bible is altered - the Quran itself attests that some of the Old Testament books are truth (Q 2:136; Q4:163) - so how are the contradictions between the Quran and the early parts of the Bible able to be married up"
you mean this parts.
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Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)." (Al-Baqarah 2:136
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Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW)[] as We inspired Nûh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and AlAsbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yûnus (Jonah), Hârûn (Aaron), and Sulaimân (Solomon), and to Dawûd (David) We gave the Zabûr (Psalms). (An-Nisa 4:163)
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this part means that we should beleive that there is a bible sent to Jesus,and Torah to Muses.
but this part dosn't tell us to follow the.becuase the truth is that the bible is from God,but that dons't mean it was changed,and in Islam,Jesus had a complete bible(not the one that was written later).although the new one is partly related.
---------------------------
" How much of the Bible have you read? If it is from inspiration of Allah - have you read it for yourself - is it not worthwhile"
a red alot,and of course it is worthwhile,and i love some parts of it.
------------------------
"
the Trinitarian) God spoke through the Bible or Allah in the Quran - not both."
so we would have had to compelelty diffirent books,not so much alike,with just a few points of diffience
----------------------------
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]." (Maryam 19:88)
Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. (Maryam 19:89)
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, (Maryam 19:90)
That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh). (Maryam 19:91)
But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (Maryam 19:92
There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave. (Maryam 19:93)
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"well either God is a liar and not who we think He is - or the Bible is wrong or the Quran is wrong...
As I said above - if the Quran places so much respect on the Bible - why does it go against its teaching? "
------------------
no....not against its teachings,just against the claim,that Jesus is God's son.
---------------------
===========================
DaveEllis said:
Fongu said:"Sin in the Bible comes in three different ways - it is not just transgressions - doing something you shouldnt, but its also failing to live up to the expected standard - and thirdly - its just living in rebellion against God (or rather living for yourself rather than God). "
"Wow hold up. So living my life for ME is a bad thing? As in, i want to live my only life to the fullest and i'll go to hell? Once again, keep your relgion... "
----------------------
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped. (Al-Baqarah 2:86)
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And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But remind (them) with it (the Qur'ân) lest a person be given up to destruction for that which he has earned, when he will find for himself no protector or intercessor besides Allâh, and even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him. Such are they who are given up to destruction because of that which they have earned. For them will be a drink of boiling water and a painful torment because they used to disbelieve. (Al-An'am 6:70)
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Verily, those who hope not for their meeting with Us, but are pleased and satisfied with the life of the present world, and those who are heedless of Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), (Yunus 10:7)
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=========================================
DaveEllis said:
And where does God say what he wants?
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And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone). (Adh-Dhariyat 51:56)
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==================================
DaveEllis
" I also live beside the sea, and, as far as im aware, the parting of the sea is not an everyday occurence, so I'd like that scientificly explained. Thank you"'
well that whats is called mircals.
--------------------
Berger_Fan said:
convenient too. How come these 'miracles' don't seem to happen nowadays? Is God losing it?
Mircals we neccesry to prove that prophits were send by God.
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Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad SAW) am not a watcher over you. (Al-An'am 6:104))
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========================
zeppelin101s said:
"Hmm, strange how there are riots and revolts all over the world about murdering Westerners, and there is this one country straddling Asia and Europe that would prefer to be Western.
"
did it accure to u the Turky will benfiet polticaly and financily from joining the EU.
=====================================
DaveEllis said:
"And where does God say what he wants? As far as i know, the Bible was not actually written by god. Unless a random guy found it in the desert one day or it was beamed into someones living room. It actually had to be physically written by someone. So please tell me, did this book just suddenly appear (scientificly impossible, which i will address in my next point) or was it written by a real person, and therefore, not god?"
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And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!" (Al-An'am 6:7)
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===============================================
Italicized Text
DaveEllis said:
"But going by christianity these are not terrible as these people will be forgiven and let into heaven, but a good eprson who is not a chrisitian, will not. Explain that please. "
--------------------------
lets say u have two kids that u love so much,one kid fools around the house destroying stuff and ruining the house,but he realy loves u and treats u very well,and every time he sees someone he talks good about u and tell others how much he loves u,the other one is very calm,he cleans the house and never say bad words,but he actually beleives that u don't exsite,he allways say,that if u do existe u must be on big idiote,and when u actaully wants to talk to him,he acts as if he dosn't see u.
---------------------------------------------------
"Dinosaurs were around millions of years before humans and never exsisted at the same time. But there is no mention of them in the bible. According to science, Dinos came first, according to the bible, humans came first (and all scientific knowledge says this is not true). So theres another contradicition of relgion and science which you claim doesnt exsist."
well in islam,humans are not the first to exiset.
----------------------------------
Fongu said:
"I know what i'd choose Muks - an intelligent designer creating intelligent beings that are far superior to monkeys and a world that has order and purpose - over a series of unproven - unrepeatable - contradictory to the third law of thermodynamics - events that lead us up to our existence with no purpose than a paper clip. "
ok ppl are against u to prove evolotion.although i am against the theory,but lets say it happend,who gave life to the first thing.?
-----------------------
and about the days thing,here is part for the Quran:
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He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time). (As-Sajdah 32:5)
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-----------------------------------------
Muck_C said:
"but the things in the Bible (and other holy books) are unproven, unrepeatable and contradictory in many ways too, as Dave has been discussing (parting of the sea, water into wine etc.). "
-------------------------------------------------
read the moon incident thing above.
================
DaveEllis said:
"I didnt say transforming water was impossible. I said scientificly, transforiming it into wine as simple as Jesus did it is not possible. Nor is the parting of the sea. "
------------------------
well,yes,actually science and mircals contradicts,because life (science) is createrd as the life of reasons,(u eat,u live) but Miracls is somethig that breaks that law,to show god's abiltiy,so Scientificly,it has no explanation
-----------------------
for those who say that God rested in the Seven's day,in Islam:
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And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us. (Qaf 50:38)
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=====================================
LS. said:
"sorry to hark back to Ricky Gervais again, but he touched upon the Adam and Eve story too,
He mentioned about the punishments dished out by God after the snake had told Eve that it was ok to eat the fruit from the tree
God punished man by making him toil all day instead of recieving manna from heaven
He punished Eve by increasing the pain during child birth
And the punishment he gave to the snake? ( the one thing that caused all of the problems )
-------------------------
the snake was actually satan.
and there punishment was that they were thrown out of heaven
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Then the Shaitân (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time." (Al-Baqarah 2:36)
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thats it for now,i will try to answer the rest.
plz don't take my words as a mean to put bible down,but i am saying what i beleive
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2006 08:37PM by Hakkinenf1.
it didn't take me a lot of time to answer,but it took me a lot of time to start answering.
i hope u read all
B-tone said:
Britain planetd Israel in the Middle east and mader sure it will stay there,
they were four countries that were just out of the (british,French,Italian)ouccupation,the even fought with cheated weapons (long issure ,hope we have a new thread for it).
Incase Arabs occupied Jersulem???LOL...funny.
the reason arab didn't attack Jeruslem was because the Holly (Masjed al-Aqssa)
is there (Holy place for Muslems,Christians)the same reason Sallah-Aldien,order his shoulders not to shoot stones far into the city.
Britians worked with Arabs,well they worked masacrs on arabs,its sad to see how someone's mind can be manuplated.
"arab soldiers didn't know why they were there and weren't willing to die over an arab scrap for a small piece of land"
for Arabs and Muslems (Jersulem) is the second most important spot in the wrold,after Meccah.
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Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allâh) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubî, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad SAW) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad SAW) of Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer[]. (Al-Isra 17:1)
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"of course the israeli army improved over time, but were attacjed again, and never beaten. israel even took large araes off their neighbours. "
they had all the support of world power,as every country wanted to get red of jews ,so they made sure they get the land.
---------------------
LS said
"We saw a few days ago that certain parts of the muslim faith are bent on destruction of the west, yet they live over here, they have'nt intergrated into our way of life or even bothered trying"
-----------------------------------------------------------
maybe they live there to get a descent paycheck.
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ChrisB said:
Some days you just wonder what the @#$%& the world has turned into when the government of a powerful country like Iran can be so @#$%& up. i mean...what?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and Bush is the right man to run the most powerfull country.the man had a two hours movie(F 9\11) just to show how a much of a stupide man he is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muck_C said:
sending muslim children to specialist muslim-only schools is the most stupid idea to me, because when they grow up and get a job, are they going to work in a muslim-only workplace? instead of learning to interact with people differnet to themselves, they are cocooned in their own world, and this can only breed mis-trust of others in them.
----------------------------------
they have to be taught Quran,and they live bettwen them out side the school,so u can't say they are not interacting
-------------------------------------------------------
Morbid said:
"you read the muslims texts from the period of the crusades in the holy land.................................. affairs that had little or even nothing at all to do with muslims or Islam. "
great post,u know a lot about this stuff,but don't forgot that the cruasades were a big demand of the pop at the time,which instanlty makes it a relegious war,and even told churches to tell soldiers (that the many muslems u kill,the more Jesus will love u,and let u into heaven)why didn't he told them to talk to them about Christianty,if the purpose was to bring faith to the unfaithfulls,as i remember that maybe and italian poet said at the time after the cruasader entered (jersulem) that the scene was horrible,even little chlidern were slaughterd-------------------------------
Vader:
This might be a bit far fetched, but I think it is interesting to see that the last time a "united Europe" acted in a religious motivated war was roughly 500 somewhat years ago. Muslims are now acting motivated by religion and Islam is roughly 500 years younger than Christianity - that means they would be 500 years back, exactly at a time when we - the western world - where having the crusades. Maybe Islam still needs 500 years
------------------------------------------------
how exaclty those extra 500 hundered year helped christianty,its not a forumula 1 car,years won't bring more developements.
===================================================
ZaZ said:
"Claiming respect and not respecting others will never work of course.
Tolerance is essential when we want to live next to eachother. In the old days it wasn't that much of a problem (in world wide terms), but now we have television, radio and internet and the world suddenly got a lot smaller.
Don't try to change eachother.
My 'mother in law' is a Catholic priest, but yet I'm doing her daughter although we aren't married.
If she had a choice, she'd like to see it different. But she doesn't have a choice and respects the way i and mrs zaz see it and we get along quite well"
------------------------------------------------
that the problem,that way,all people should be selfish,(i said this example befor)imagine me sittiong in front of a building,u come one way,and a gang is waiting for u in the other,i will try my best to warn u about that gang,but instead,u say,lighten up and let every body live his life.
like ur mother in law,she knows that adultery leads to hell,but she says nothing to her daughter,she only care bout her self if she realy beleives that aduleter goes to hell,god forbid maybe her daughter dies today.who knows,can she realy sleep at night knowing she said nothing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I admit I'm not really into the subject and I'm just a common guy.
But the world is full of common people and it's that exact same group which needs to get along to make it all work.
It's really easy if we want to and nobody has to sacrifice anything.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
thats the problem,the subject of hell,is far more dangerous than to only pass by and say hello,u spend tow hours watching an F1 race,give an hour a week just to think,about God ,hell and heaven,read,do some researchs
=================================================
chrislewis said:
"With regards to the comic, I believe Muslim feel as they have been targeted since 9/11 and that they have a deep sense of pride and feel humiliated and targeted by the events of the past few years,hence the outrage".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
true.....
================================================
fongu said:
"If any Christian understand it fully, i'd like to hear off them "
--------------------------
why would God be Jesus and the holy spirite at the same time??why??or as some Christians said that God came in Jesus Body,so we wouldn't be scared,in my country alone,we have four relegious parts(not Muslems)claiming that God came to them in the body of the one who they worship.
===============================================
Muck_C:
if you're suggesting that it comes from a "God", and then is developed further through upbringing, then how come although i don't believe in god, i am not a criminal, but some criminals are religious?
The _F1_Lunatic :
"Satan tempts them."
-------------------------
exactly.
=====================================
Fungo said:
"It really isnt the same God - just dabbling into any of the 'holy books' will tell you that they are not the same. Original Judaism was Christianity, but they lost the plot before Christ came. For a start, Christianity will say that Jesus is God - something that sets it apart. We would also say that God is personal - interacting with people - again something that is unique to Christianity (although the Jews should believe the same ) "
--------------------------
exactly,why dance about the subject,Muslems only worshps God,no jesus,no Buda,no God is a human Body.
Holy Quran:
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&No son (or offspring or children) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Al-Mu'minun 23:91)
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---------------------------------
marcl said:
"these views are what is causing the problems around the world.
isreal was a @#$%& whole, no proper water no drains nothing. Now its all built up the land is wanted. "
Israel reminds me with Redbull,they sucseeded because of three elements,Money,Money and Money.
=============================================
Ferrari_Fuhrer:"It's also worth pointing out that Jews were living in the land of Israel long before Islam even came about."
that means the Americans should be kicked out of America,and the Autralians out of Australia
==============================================
Vader Said:"If God gave us the ability to laugh, why shouldn't we use it? Why should it be a sin to look at the bright sight of religion?"
he also gave us the abiltiy to Kill,commite adultry.
who is against lughing,or Porphet (Muhamad ,SAW)used to joke,here is one of the stories:
an old women came to our prophet and asked him,(am i going to heave?) and he answerd (old women do not enter heaven) and the old women started crying so he said(because of course when u enter heaven u will be young again)
====================================
saxypamelia Said:
"I would just like to add that these cartoons that have been published of prophet Muhammed (pbuh) go to show how imature and ignorate some people can be. Islam is NOT a religion of hate and war as the media would have people believe it to be...in fact it is the opposite. It teaches love, family values, modesty, submission to the ONE and ONLY God "Allah". Allah is arabic meaning God. Yes it is true ALL religions have their extremist.....BUT....does that give ANY of us the right to attack each others religions? Unless you take the time to sit down and study the by-laws of anothers religion and learn their beliefs, what gives you the right to say what they do and don't believe in? I am a former christian and I converted to being a muslim sometime back, and I must say....this is this BEST decision I have ever made praise be to Allah. Some of you may ask why are we so upset with these cartoons? If someone took a picture of the pope or Jesus (pbuh) and done the same things with them would you not feel the same if you have the same love and devotion towards your religion? What many people don't understand with Islam....its not just a religion with us, its our way of life...EVERYTHING we do revolves around Allah. Just as in ALL religions there are good muslims and bad muslims.....but we ALL must answer for our wrong doings. Just a little reminder for the christians out there attacking us muslims...there is a scripture in your bible that says "judge not least you be judged accordingly".
----------------------
you said it all man.
============================
"Its funny how Islam has to consider the Bible a holy book. Why? The Bibles clear - add to any of these words and you heap up an intense judgement. Within the Bible itself - theres no contradictions and one aim - to point to Jesus Christ, and that theres nothing you can do to gain your salvation. That alone sets it way apart from any other faith ever."
Beacuse in the Holy Qoran is was mentioned as a book from God,but as i said it was altered by people who wanted power,
Fongu Said:
in the Holy Quran:
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Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (Al-Baqarah 2:79)
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==========================
Vader said:
"I would like to see assadof1s response to this. Why has nobody run berzerk in Egypt? Maybe the cartoons were really just an excuse to let out a general hatred towards us westerners? "
because they were shown so ppl can see what the Danish NP did.
u have to undersant something,its forbidden for us to Draw our prophit,in my whole life,i have never seen one drawing to our prophet,so drawing him and mocking him,is too much.
==========================
Fongu said:"Theres not anything i can write now that is going to persuade you or anyone else that the Bible is the standard of truth. But what I will say is that the Bible claims this for itself, the proof is within itself. It claims that God wrote it, through the inspiration of its 40 or so authors,"
well that is not the case in the Quran,the holy quran has a lot of proofs inside it that shows it was send by God.
but to say God inspired 40 ppl to write it???why???why not one or two,man ,we have minds to think.
isn't this the biggest evidence that ppl altered the bible for there owen interstes.
From the holy Quran
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Do they not then consider the Qur'ân carefully? Had it been from other than Allâh, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. (An-Nisa 4:82)
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Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'ân, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." (Al-Isra 17:88)
And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Qur'ân, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief. (Al-Isra 17:89)
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Do they not then think deeply in the Qur'ân, or are their hearts locked up (from understanding it)? (Muhammad 47:24)
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Fongu said:
How can you claim that Jesus is just a prophet (by what He said and claimed and did(which raising himself from the dead must make Him the greatest prophet ever)) and yet He is refuted here? How can you approve of what Jesus did and yet refute everything He claimed in the next sentence? How can 'Allah' say that He has a Son at Jesus' baptism - yet here Allah is claimed to be far above having a son. "
don't relate the Quran to the Bible in the matter of Jesus because as i sadi the Bible is altered,int the holy Quran,not once that Jesus is mentioed as the some of God,and he didn't raise him self form the dead,he raised another person,so what its God's abillity being put in Jesus ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
read the next part very carefully,although its long but its very important
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ethistes asked our prophet to split the moon to show them that he is realy send by God,so he did
form the holy Quran:
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The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). (Al-Qamar 54:1)
And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: "This is continuous magic." (Al-Qamar 54:2)
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so in the modern times there was a scinetest who had a muslem friend,this muslem firend gave him the Holy Quran as a gift,later on he opended it and read the tow senectes i qouted above,so he laughed and closed the Qouran and never opended it again,three monthes later he was watching the BBC and they showed a program about the moon ,they said that the moon has rocks spread a round him in one line shows that the moon was slpitted once,the guy jumped in the air unbelieaving,(story quoted from the scintest him self .)i wrote it as i remember it.
why didn't Muslems say that Mohamad is a God.
----------------------------------------
the Jesus Miracls are mentiond in the Qouran this way:
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Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with RûhulQudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle[] and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, AlHikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' " (Al-Ma'idah 5:110)
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"He gives us concrete assurance - a faith that has a certain hope - because Jesus has provided a certain way in which we are blameless at the Day of Judgement.
"
Blameless,why did God created us for then,the story of Jesus taking away or sins is just another excause for human to take of themselves the Borden of not doing sins,
read this imaginery story:
there was a very powerfull King,but he was a good man,and his ppl who he allways gave them shelter and food,did nothing as he told them,they commicted all acts of horrible things,so one day he called them and said,here is my son ,take came,laugh at him,toture him,then cursfiy him,so i can forgive u all.
so tell me,is this a story to beleive??
---------------
in the holy Quran no one will earse any sin for u,
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And fear the Day (of Judgement) when no person shall avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from him, nor shall intercession be of use to him, nor shall they be helped. (Al-Baqarah 2:123)
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---------------------------
"You continue to deny that Christ was crucified - fine if He wasn't I'd be screwed on the Day of Judgement"
lol man,i was writting all serious ,then u made me laugh.
"and made God into a deceiver - one who makes mistakes. "
no,men do mistakes,the Bible is a book to tell people whome to worship and how,but Satanic games convencid men to deviret it.
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Mankind were one community and Allâh sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed. And only those to whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it after clear proofs had come unto them through hatred, one to another. Then Allâh by His Leave guided those who believed to the truth of that wherein they differed. And Allâh guides whom He wills to a Straight Path. (Al-Baqarah 2:213)
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----------------------------------------------------------------
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.
By this time Ishmael was long gone - is Mohammed part of the brethren? (maybe I'm wrong)
In Acts 7:37, Stephen applies this to Jesus. Scripture must tell us how to interpret Scripture. If this was Mohammed - then somethings wrong.
---------------------------
very important,i had a long artiacl for how that Prophet that was talked about was miss interperted,i will try my best for find that artical.
---------------------------------------------
"Sure Jesus was not like Moses - but before Moses there was no other prophet. Jesus did fulfil some prophetic roles which is true, but to expect he was exactly like Moses is a wrong assumption. "
Actually there was Abraham and others
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Has not the news reached you, of those before you, the people of Nûh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud? And those after them? None knows them but Allâh. To them came their Messengers with clear proofs, but they put their hands in their mouths (biting them from anger) and said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and we are really in grave doubt as to that to which you invite us (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism)." (Ibrahim 14:9)
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Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. If Allâh had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allâh had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved. If Allâh had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allâh does what He likes. (Al-Baqarah 2:253)
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---------------------------
"Yes he was rejected - by people in His own town, which the Bible says is down to their lack of faith (which alone saves). Actually under Moses - the people did not follow God's ways - and they died wondering around the desert."
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this is idintical to what we have in Islam
(Allâh) said: "Therefore it (this holy land) is forbidden to them for forty years; in distraction they will wander through the land. So be not sorrowful over the people who are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh)." (Al-Ma'idah 5:26)
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and about mary
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And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
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Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
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Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
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Italicized Text
"i've read about 80% of the aforementioned article before i got bored. my replies up there somewhere"
Fongo said:
i hope u read all.
-----------------------------
"1 question though: even if the Torah/Septuagint/Old Testament were changed before Jesus - why did Jesus not correct any of it? For the New Testament - there have been quite a few manuscripts - and they are pretty consistent with each other from my understanding. In fact 2 complete manuscripts exist today that stretch back 2 centuries before the prophet Muhammad.
"
----------------------------------
even if Jesus corrected them,that dosn't mean that they can be changed back to be consistent with the changed Torah,
---------------------------------------
"Again - because of the way the Bible was written - because of its span through many years of writing through many authors in different ways - yet thoroughly consitent,
"
------------------------------------------------------
how hard can that Be??????????????????????
------------------------
"is staggering for a start - but what it claims for itself makes it a unique book. As mentioned above its all about Christ - who is God - who has come to offer a way into Heaven - it is not just a book of stories and a guide to how to live or to worship. "
-----------------------
of course,because it has some stories from the orginal Bible.
-------------------------------------------
"From what i understand of the Quran (I dont mean this to be an attack on Islam - but a defence of how you claimed the Bible has been altered) - The Kufic script with no vowels is the oldest of the Quranic manuscripts - allowing for ambigious and open interpretation - thus variants of the text were around - even till the mid-twentieth century when North Africa had a variant and the another with the rest of the Muslim world - until that dominated. "
-----------------------------------------------
no...not no vowels,it was not pointed like the point in the (i)...if i wrote Bible without a point on the (i),dosn't change anything???no...same as arabic.no points never changes the meaning.and the quran was also memroized.
-------------------------------------
" (I dont mean this to be an attack on Islam - but a defence of how you claimed the Bible has been altered)"
---------------------------------
don't worry about that as our propuse is to prove something.and plz don't hestar to post anything u want,
i will not be offended.
-------------------------------------
"What you have failed to realise is what Jesus has said in the Bible - his claim of Godship - the verses that speak of Him creating the universe (the active agent in creation)."
how did he creat the universe???wasn't he born later??much much later.
---------------
"You seem also to neglect that even though the authors of the Bible are human - God (being all powerful) can work through men"
----------------------------------
and also u seemed to negelect how many hypocrate befor said that God is speaking through them,why didn't he write it through Jesus.
----------------------------------------
" Despite the fact you have said the Bible is altered - the Quran itself attests that some of the Old Testament books are truth (Q 2:136; Q4:163) - so how are the contradictions between the Quran and the early parts of the Bible able to be married up"
you mean this parts.
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Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)." (Al-Baqarah 2:136
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Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW)[] as We inspired Nûh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and AlAsbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yûnus (Jonah), Hârûn (Aaron), and Sulaimân (Solomon), and to Dawûd (David) We gave the Zabûr (Psalms). (An-Nisa 4:163)
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this part means that we should beleive that there is a bible sent to Jesus,and Torah to Muses.
but this part dosn't tell us to follow the.becuase the truth is that the bible is from God,but that dons't mean it was changed,and in Islam,Jesus had a complete bible(not the one that was written later).although the new one is partly related.
---------------------------
" How much of the Bible have you read? If it is from inspiration of Allah - have you read it for yourself - is it not worthwhile"
a red alot,and of course it is worthwhile,and i love some parts of it.
------------------------
"
the Trinitarian) God spoke through the Bible or Allah in the Quran - not both."so we would have had to compelelty diffirent books,not so much alike,with just a few points of diffience
----------------------------
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]." (Maryam 19:88)
Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. (Maryam 19:89)
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, (Maryam 19:90)
That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh). (Maryam 19:91)
But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (Maryam 19:92
There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave. (Maryam 19:93)
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"well either God is a liar and not who we think He is - or the Bible is wrong or the Quran is wrong...
As I said above - if the Quran places so much respect on the Bible - why does it go against its teaching? "
------------------
no....not against its teachings,just against the claim,that Jesus is God's son.
---------------------
===========================
DaveEllis said:
Fongu said:"Sin in the Bible comes in three different ways - it is not just transgressions - doing something you shouldnt, but its also failing to live up to the expected standard - and thirdly - its just living in rebellion against God (or rather living for yourself rather than God). "
"Wow hold up. So living my life for ME is a bad thing? As in, i want to live my only life to the fullest and i'll go to hell? Once again, keep your relgion... "
----------------------
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped. (Al-Baqarah 2:86)
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And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But remind (them) with it (the Qur'ân) lest a person be given up to destruction for that which he has earned, when he will find for himself no protector or intercessor besides Allâh, and even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him. Such are they who are given up to destruction because of that which they have earned. For them will be a drink of boiling water and a painful torment because they used to disbelieve. (Al-An'am 6:70)
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Verily, those who hope not for their meeting with Us, but are pleased and satisfied with the life of the present world, and those who are heedless of Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), (Yunus 10:7)
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=========================================
DaveEllis said:
And where does God say what he wants?
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And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone). (Adh-Dhariyat 51:56)
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==================================
DaveEllis
" I also live beside the sea, and, as far as im aware, the parting of the sea is not an everyday occurence, so I'd like that scientificly explained. Thank you"'
well that whats is called mircals.
--------------------
Berger_Fan said:
convenient too. How come these 'miracles' don't seem to happen nowadays? Is God losing it?
Mircals we neccesry to prove that prophits were send by God.
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Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad SAW) am not a watcher over you. (Al-An'am 6:104))
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========================
zeppelin101s said:
"Hmm, strange how there are riots and revolts all over the world about murdering Westerners, and there is this one country straddling Asia and Europe that would prefer to be Western.
"
did it accure to u the Turky will benfiet polticaly and financily from joining the EU.
=====================================
DaveEllis said:
"And where does God say what he wants? As far as i know, the Bible was not actually written by god. Unless a random guy found it in the desert one day or it was beamed into someones living room. It actually had to be physically written by someone. So please tell me, did this book just suddenly appear (scientificly impossible, which i will address in my next point) or was it written by a real person, and therefore, not god?"
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And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!" (Al-An'am 6:7)
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===============================================
Italicized Text
DaveEllis said:
"But going by christianity these are not terrible as these people will be forgiven and let into heaven, but a good eprson who is not a chrisitian, will not. Explain that please. "
--------------------------
lets say u have two kids that u love so much,one kid fools around the house destroying stuff and ruining the house,but he realy loves u and treats u very well,and every time he sees someone he talks good about u and tell others how much he loves u,the other one is very calm,he cleans the house and never say bad words,but he actually beleives that u don't exsite,he allways say,that if u do existe u must be on big idiote,and when u actaully wants to talk to him,he acts as if he dosn't see u.
---------------------------------------------------
"Dinosaurs were around millions of years before humans and never exsisted at the same time. But there is no mention of them in the bible. According to science, Dinos came first, according to the bible, humans came first (and all scientific knowledge says this is not true). So theres another contradicition of relgion and science which you claim doesnt exsist."
well in islam,humans are not the first to exiset.
----------------------------------
Fongu said:
"I know what i'd choose Muks - an intelligent designer creating intelligent beings that are far superior to monkeys and a world that has order and purpose - over a series of unproven - unrepeatable - contradictory to the third law of thermodynamics - events that lead us up to our existence with no purpose than a paper clip. "
ok ppl are against u to prove evolotion.although i am against the theory,but lets say it happend,who gave life to the first thing.?
-----------------------
and about the days thing,here is part for the Quran:
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He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time). (As-Sajdah 32:5)
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-----------------------------------------
Muck_C said:
"but the things in the Bible (and other holy books) are unproven, unrepeatable and contradictory in many ways too, as Dave has been discussing (parting of the sea, water into wine etc.). "
-------------------------------------------------
read the moon incident thing above.
================
DaveEllis said:
"I didnt say transforming water was impossible. I said scientificly, transforiming it into wine as simple as Jesus did it is not possible. Nor is the parting of the sea. "
------------------------
well,yes,actually science and mircals contradicts,because life (science) is createrd as the life of reasons,(u eat,u live) but Miracls is somethig that breaks that law,to show god's abiltiy,so Scientificly,it has no explanation
-----------------------
for those who say that God rested in the Seven's day,in Islam:
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And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us. (Qaf 50:38)
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=====================================
LS. said:
"sorry to hark back to Ricky Gervais again, but he touched upon the Adam and Eve story too,
He mentioned about the punishments dished out by God after the snake had told Eve that it was ok to eat the fruit from the tree
God punished man by making him toil all day instead of recieving manna from heaven
He punished Eve by increasing the pain during child birth
And the punishment he gave to the snake? ( the one thing that caused all of the problems )
-------------------------
the snake was actually satan.
and there punishment was that they were thrown out of heaven
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Then the Shaitân (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time." (Al-Baqarah 2:36)
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thats it for now,i will try to answer the rest.
plz don't take my words as a mean to put bible down,but i am saying what i beleive
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2006 08:37PM by Hakkinenf1.
fongu said:
"If any Christian understand it fully, i'd like to hear off them "
--------------------------
why would God be Jesus and the holy spirite at the same time??why??or as some Christians said that God came in Jesus Body,so we wouldn't be scared,in my country alone,we have four relegious parts(not Muslems)claiming that God came to them in the body of the one who they worship.
The reason its essential is because the solution to man's problem of sin is not with man - it has to be with a sinless eternal being. Not even an angel can do it for us - it had to be God Himself who had to provide a solution to the problem - that is to pay the punishment for the sins we have committed.
And what does Iesa mean? What does Messiah mean? From what i've heard there is no meaning (in the Islamic world). But in the Bible - "you shall call His name Jesus - because He will take away the sins of the world." He is the anointed one, the promised one, who will do this (as is thoroughly seen throughout the Old Testament *see below (very bottom)*)
------------------------------------------
Holy Quran:
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&No son (or offspring or children) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Al-Mu'minun 23:91)
That's another issue - Christ was never created - He was with God at the beginning - because He is God - just as God the Father ('Allah' i presume) and the Holy Spirit.
to quote a bit of the Bible [Philipians 2:5-11]
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God [that is He is God and has the right to be equal with God], did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
The thing is - we do believe in three very distinct Gods - but then we also believe they are so united - they are one God. Do I fully understand this? no i don't - i dont claim to fully understand everything about a being who's more infinite than I can comprehend. If I were to be able to fully understand God - why believe in Him?
------------------------------------------
Beacuse in the Holy Qoran is was mentioned as a book from God,but as i said it was altered by people who wanted power,
Again, there is no evidence for this - if it was altered - then there would be discpreancies or inconsistencies. How does it change anything for man - all the book talks about is how naff mankind has become - it all glorifies Christ. To limit God's power over us is disrespectful and near heretical.
------------------------------------------
well that is not the case in the Quran,the holy quran has a lot of proofs inside it that shows it was send by God.
but to say God inspired 40 ppl to write it???why???why not one or two,man ,we have minds to think.
isn't this the biggest evidence that ppl altered the bible for there owen interstes.
Again this shows more the providence of God in using so many people (from different backgrounds - different situations - different writing styles, over 1000 or so years) yet there are no unexplainable inaccuracies - the message thoroughly consistent and everything written to point to the fully God/man Christ. The fact that its written by 40 authors over a long period of time gives it credibility as more and more people can witness to the same truth.
The issue is that the Quran says the Bible is worth reading - the Bible says nothing else but itself is worth reading... the two books clearly contradict each other on this issue. Again if the Quran says the (Torah & Bible has value as it too is from Allah, then read it and tell me where its gone wrong and where it points to Islam being correct and also from God.
------------------------------------------
don't relate the Quran to the Bible in the matter of Jesus because as i sadi the Bible is altered,int the holy Quran,not once that Jesus is mentioed as the some of God,and he didn't raise him self form the dead,he raised another person,so what its God's abillity being put in Jesus ...
If you take away Christ's death and ressurection - you take away the whole point of His coming to earth, you take away the whole assurance of getting into Heaven - all you can face is judgement from God - there is no hope for God is just. All the Torah, all the Septuagint points to Christ, the one who fulfils all the prophecies concerning the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One of God. The whole Bible is about Jesus - where then is the common ground between the two books?
------------------------------------------
the Jesus Miracls are mentiond in the Qouran this way: (Al-Ma'idah 5:110)
So what it says here is that Jesus was given power by Allah to do the miracles that He did (correct me if I'm wrong)... Is this true? Well yes it is - power over creation has to come from God Himself who rules it. But everytime Jesus did a miracle - there was always a message that accompanied it - either proving He is the Son of God or attesting His work of dying on the cross and raising Himself from the dead.
------------------------------------------
why did God created us for then
For the simple reason to glorify Him.
------------------------------------------
story of Jesus taking away or sins is just another excause for human to take of themselves the Borden of not doing sins,
How is it an excuse? If you accept Christ as Saviour - you also accept Him as Lord of you life - living to glorify God according to His Word.
What happens when we break His Laws? Do we go unpunished? No because God would not be just (fair).
Just because we determine to live a more moral life does that mean God forgets the past? No it doesn't, the eternal God is eternally offended by the sins committed past,present and future. These sins are to be appeased - whether in eternity in Hell - or by some other means (that is Christ on the cross).
Is God pleased with Creation as it is? No - because its completely tainted with sin (immoral rebellion against God)
Does that mean God is not in control? No - its all part of His plan - The good-news will reach all the God has intended to.
So why does God not make a perfect World? Because God can do what He likes - All of History shows God's amazing working - in what seems a bleak situation for mankind - God came and God saved and God will be glorified in a greater way.
What does this show about God? That He is patient with our sins. It also shows His love in saving a wicked and perverse people
"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." [1 John 4:9-10]
------------------------------------------
no,men do mistakes,the Bible is a book to tell people whome to worship and how,but Satanic games convencid men to deviret it.
Yes men do make mistakes - but to say the Bible is then altered is to presume two things - that men are completely free from the control of God and Satan has free reign to do what He likes whether God wants it to or not. If God was not in control restraining the Devil or men - then there would be no saying how evil the world would get (maybe like Sodom & Gomorrah or pre-flood) - Hitler would be a nice man compared to what men could do.
If the Bible was just a law book - what makes it any different from the book from the laws of our countries? Ok even if it was from God - what is its purpose? To see it just as a book of laws is to completely miss the point (the content of much of Jesus' conversation with the Pharisees is over this) - sure it points out how to live in God's way, pleasing Him, but the point of the Law is to show us that we can not live up to God's standard of righteousness (as He defines it). To show our absolute naffness should lead us to seek a solution for the problem - that is Jesus Christ (who takes away the sins of the world).
------------------------------------------
Allâh sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings
I think you'll find the warnings came first, always because 'mankind' were not living as God expected of them... however there was always a small remnant who had the promise that God would provide a solution for those who turn and seek His face.
With the rest of that quotation - it misses the meaning of the prophecies - the prophets were not there to send truth in divided circumstances.... it was always to warn people of judgement from God due to their style of living... just read some of the prophets...
The judgements (of war or dispersion) were always in the general state of the Nation (the chosen people of God) not to individuals.
------------------------------------------
Actually there was Abraham and others [concerning prophets before Moses]
Nope - He was not a prophet - God spoke to Him - and that was it. What does a prophet do? He proclaims God's Word (a fuller definition is in the end of Deut 18) - whether its a message for now - about the future or whatever. All Abraham had to do was stay faithful and bear children (in a miraculous manner).
Is Noah and exception - yes if you take my definition from above - because on top of His day job (boat building) His evening job was to tell others why He was building the boat - ofcourse no-one listened. Why was he warning of judegment? Because people were living in sin. Was there hope for a small remnant? Yes - Noah and his family (and the animals)
------------------------------------------
If Allâh had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allâh does what He likes.
But why did Allah will? Because people weren't walking as they should particularly because they were God's chosen people (the seed of Abraham) thus they needed something that would make them listen lest a punishment should come whilst they were on the earth. God never wants His Name to be dishonoured by His people - and sure we all make mistakes - but the pattern was not persistent knowing sin, which causes earthly punishment/chastisement.
------------------------------------------
and about mary
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
What does this show??
------------------------------------------
even if Jesus corrected them,that dosn't mean that they can be changed back to be consistent with the changed Torah,
But they were never inconsistent.... they still arent....
------------------------------------------
don't worry about that as our propuse is to prove something.and plz don't hestar to post anything u want,
i will not be offended.
Well thats fine - but i dont want to be offensive or aggresive - I want to show that Quran and the Bible [unaltered or altered] cannot go together - that the Bible alone is the standard of truth (and yes that does make me a fundamentalist - no different to an Islamic terrorist eh?! What does that say about the books?!) - and what it says about Jesus, the Son of God, who is the only way to Heaven.
------------------------------------------
how did he creat the universe???wasn't he born later??much much later.
For the very fact that Jesus is God - only becoming manifest as the living and talking/walking Jesus that we know from history. This then is still the stumbling block
Look I dont claim to fully understand the nature of Christ being the only begotten of God - my limited understanding can go as far as to say that the Father and the Son are given the Names because of their nature towards us - aiding our understanding. We can understand many themes
*what it means for a father to love a son - how difficult it would be to sacrifice your own flesh and blood
*the son is the heir to the father - all that the Fathers will one day be the Sons
*The son obeys the will of the father - the son was obedient to come to earth not in majesty but as a servant - even to the point of death on the cross (as quoted above) but this does not mean that any of their characteristics are different
There are probably others that i cant think of right now.
------------------------------------------
and also u seemed to negelect how many hypocrate befor said that God is speaking through them,why didn't he write it through Jesus.
Again if it was all through one man then it would be more vulnerable to attacks to its consistency. No offence - but take the Mormons - one guy had a visit from an angel in a dream - do i doubt thats an angel? maybe - maybe not - but the angel was not from God. However it doesnt mean i believe him - because its just one guy - he could be anybody, there is no proof he's the only attested from God. He's only one man with one (stand alone) conviction with no attestation but his own experience (which was a dream which is all a bit iffy anyway and some other weird things). Could God have done it through one man? sure why not? But was it the best thing? I'd say not because of the way the Bible was gradually revealed to us - and that includes the Quran because of its mention of the Bible and how that was revealed and then given as definitive. I dont think this is a major issue - however i believe because it was revealed the way that it was makes it more reliable.
------------------------------------------
but this part dosn't tell us to follow the.becuase the truth is that the bible is from God,but that dons't mean it was changed,and in Islam,Jesus had a complete bible(not the one that was written later).although the new one is partly related.
ok, so lets use the Old Testament, as that was all Jesus had... and see what some of these prophets said about Him. I believe the whole Bible is written so that we see what we are in ourselves - sinful before God - and the solution God has given, that is Jesus the Son of God (not begotten and eternally God), thus setting it completely apart from the Quran which denies that very fact - i.e. the whole Bible.
Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
This is God speaking judgment to Eve - note it speaks of one who will bruise (better translated crush) the head of the serpent - i.e. the Devil and sin, and you shall bruise His heal. So obviously the devil will inflict some sort of damage on this 'he' but it would not keep him down. Note also that it speaks of 'her' offspring - it could have been Adam's but it wasn't - there's only one woman who alone gave birth to a baby - a son, that is Jesus. What would Jesus do? Defeat the Devil once and for all and He too will experience some pain, but it will not defeat Him.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Here God is the famous covenant of Abraham with God. What does God promise - an innumerable descendants. Who were the descendants? The Jews? No - it is Christians (this is shown in the New Testament more clearly). Why? Read the next verse... His ground for righteousness was never about Abraham's blood (or circumcision for that matter) it was always of his faith (belief). Abraham had a faith that saved him from the punishment that is Hell.
Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
Psa 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Taken from Psalm 2 (written by David) which talks about the Lord who has reserved all of creation for who? my Son? Who's that? And who are the only people who are safe from His wrath (Hell)? - those who take refuge in Him... in who? Jesus, the Son.
One more very graphic passage...
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
It pleased God to crush Him (speaking of the Son (52:13). Why, because the Son had done wrong? No. So God punishes the innocent? No. So why punish the innocent Jesus? It was an offering for sin - so that the sons of God (the adopted, that is those who have taken refuge in Christ) may be prospered (go to Heaven). Out of the anguish of the Son shall God's anger against sin be poured out and be appeased (satisfied) allowing a way for those who believe on Him to go to Heaven. And what does He do at the end of the passage? He makes interecession - who? between the sons of God and God Himself. Why? Because God is a personal God who loves the fellowship with the creme de la creme of His creation - humans - untainted with sin (as we were created). This is not possible now because of the barrier of sin - something which God clearly cannot leave unpunished (even to the price of His own Son).
I'm spending too much time on this - do you get my point?
I dont know exactly what Islamic beliefs are... I don't know what you think about Heaven, how you get there, the nature of Allah, the purpose of man, escatology (end times) etc, but the Bible is thoroughly black and white about it - if you don't believe in Jesus, you will not get into Heaven, because Romans 3:23 tells us that
"If any Christian understand it fully, i'd like to hear off them "
--------------------------
why would God be Jesus and the holy spirite at the same time??why??or as some Christians said that God came in Jesus Body,so we wouldn't be scared,in my country alone,we have four relegious parts(not Muslems)claiming that God came to them in the body of the one who they worship.
The reason its essential is because the solution to man's problem of sin is not with man - it has to be with a sinless eternal being. Not even an angel can do it for us - it had to be God Himself who had to provide a solution to the problem - that is to pay the punishment for the sins we have committed.
And what does Iesa mean? What does Messiah mean? From what i've heard there is no meaning (in the Islamic world). But in the Bible - "you shall call His name Jesus - because He will take away the sins of the world." He is the anointed one, the promised one, who will do this (as is thoroughly seen throughout the Old Testament *see below (very bottom)*)
------------------------------------------
Holy Quran:
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&No son (or offspring or children) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Al-Mu'minun 23:91)
That's another issue - Christ was never created - He was with God at the beginning - because He is God - just as God the Father ('Allah' i presume) and the Holy Spirit.
to quote a bit of the Bible [Philipians 2:5-11]
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God [that is He is God and has the right to be equal with God], did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
The thing is - we do believe in three very distinct Gods - but then we also believe they are so united - they are one God. Do I fully understand this? no i don't - i dont claim to fully understand everything about a being who's more infinite than I can comprehend. If I were to be able to fully understand God - why believe in Him?
------------------------------------------
Beacuse in the Holy Qoran is was mentioned as a book from God,but as i said it was altered by people who wanted power,
Again, there is no evidence for this - if it was altered - then there would be discpreancies or inconsistencies. How does it change anything for man - all the book talks about is how naff mankind has become - it all glorifies Christ. To limit God's power over us is disrespectful and near heretical.
------------------------------------------
well that is not the case in the Quran,the holy quran has a lot of proofs inside it that shows it was send by God.
but to say God inspired 40 ppl to write it???why???why not one or two,man ,we have minds to think.
isn't this the biggest evidence that ppl altered the bible for there owen interstes.
Again this shows more the providence of God in using so many people (from different backgrounds - different situations - different writing styles, over 1000 or so years) yet there are no unexplainable inaccuracies - the message thoroughly consistent and everything written to point to the fully God/man Christ. The fact that its written by 40 authors over a long period of time gives it credibility as more and more people can witness to the same truth.
The issue is that the Quran says the Bible is worth reading - the Bible says nothing else but itself is worth reading... the two books clearly contradict each other on this issue. Again if the Quran says the (Torah &
Bible has value as it too is from Allah, then read it and tell me where its gone wrong and where it points to Islam being correct and also from God.------------------------------------------
don't relate the Quran to the Bible in the matter of Jesus because as i sadi the Bible is altered,int the holy Quran,not once that Jesus is mentioed as the some of God,and he didn't raise him self form the dead,he raised another person,so what its God's abillity being put in Jesus ...
If you take away Christ's death and ressurection - you take away the whole point of His coming to earth, you take away the whole assurance of getting into Heaven - all you can face is judgement from God - there is no hope for God is just. All the Torah, all the Septuagint points to Christ, the one who fulfils all the prophecies concerning the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One of God. The whole Bible is about Jesus - where then is the common ground between the two books?
------------------------------------------
the Jesus Miracls are mentiond in the Qouran this way: (Al-Ma'idah 5:110)
So what it says here is that Jesus was given power by Allah to do the miracles that He did (correct me if I'm wrong)... Is this true? Well yes it is - power over creation has to come from God Himself who rules it. But everytime Jesus did a miracle - there was always a message that accompanied it - either proving He is the Son of God or attesting His work of dying on the cross and raising Himself from the dead.
------------------------------------------
why did God created us for then
For the simple reason to glorify Him.
------------------------------------------
story of Jesus taking away or sins is just another excause for human to take of themselves the Borden of not doing sins,
How is it an excuse? If you accept Christ as Saviour - you also accept Him as Lord of you life - living to glorify God according to His Word.
What happens when we break His Laws? Do we go unpunished? No because God would not be just (fair).
Just because we determine to live a more moral life does that mean God forgets the past? No it doesn't, the eternal God is eternally offended by the sins committed past,present and future. These sins are to be appeased - whether in eternity in Hell - or by some other means (that is Christ on the cross).
Is God pleased with Creation as it is? No - because its completely tainted with sin (immoral rebellion against God)
Does that mean God is not in control? No - its all part of His plan - The good-news will reach all the God has intended to.
So why does God not make a perfect World? Because God can do what He likes - All of History shows God's amazing working - in what seems a bleak situation for mankind - God came and God saved and God will be glorified in a greater way.
What does this show about God? That He is patient with our sins. It also shows His love in saving a wicked and perverse people
"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." [1 John 4:9-10]
------------------------------------------
no,men do mistakes,the Bible is a book to tell people whome to worship and how,but Satanic games convencid men to deviret it.
Yes men do make mistakes - but to say the Bible is then altered is to presume two things - that men are completely free from the control of God and Satan has free reign to do what He likes whether God wants it to or not. If God was not in control restraining the Devil or men - then there would be no saying how evil the world would get (maybe like Sodom & Gomorrah or pre-flood) - Hitler would be a nice man compared to what men could do.
If the Bible was just a law book - what makes it any different from the book from the laws of our countries? Ok even if it was from God - what is its purpose? To see it just as a book of laws is to completely miss the point (the content of much of Jesus' conversation with the Pharisees is over this) - sure it points out how to live in God's way, pleasing Him, but the point of the Law is to show us that we can not live up to God's standard of righteousness (as He defines it). To show our absolute naffness should lead us to seek a solution for the problem - that is Jesus Christ (who takes away the sins of the world).
------------------------------------------
Allâh sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings
I think you'll find the warnings came first, always because 'mankind' were not living as God expected of them... however there was always a small remnant who had the promise that God would provide a solution for those who turn and seek His face.
With the rest of that quotation - it misses the meaning of the prophecies - the prophets were not there to send truth in divided circumstances.... it was always to warn people of judgement from God due to their style of living... just read some of the prophets...
The judgements (of war or dispersion) were always in the general state of the Nation (the chosen people of God) not to individuals.
------------------------------------------
Actually there was Abraham and others [concerning prophets before Moses]
Nope - He was not a prophet - God spoke to Him - and that was it. What does a prophet do? He proclaims God's Word (a fuller definition is in the end of Deut 18) - whether its a message for now - about the future or whatever. All Abraham had to do was stay faithful and bear children (in a miraculous manner).
Is Noah and exception - yes if you take my definition from above - because on top of His day job (boat building) His evening job was to tell others why He was building the boat - ofcourse no-one listened. Why was he warning of judegment? Because people were living in sin. Was there hope for a small remnant? Yes - Noah and his family (and the animals
)------------------------------------------
If Allâh had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allâh does what He likes.
But why did Allah will? Because people weren't walking as they should particularly because they were God's chosen people (the seed of Abraham) thus they needed something that would make them listen lest a punishment should come whilst they were on the earth. God never wants His Name to be dishonoured by His people - and sure we all make mistakes - but the pattern was not persistent knowing sin, which causes earthly punishment/chastisement.
------------------------------------------
and about mary
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
What does this show??
------------------------------------------
even if Jesus corrected them,that dosn't mean that they can be changed back to be consistent with the changed Torah,
But they were never inconsistent.... they still arent....
------------------------------------------
don't worry about that as our propuse is to prove something.and plz don't hestar to post anything u want,
i will not be offended.
Well thats fine - but i dont want to be offensive or aggresive - I want to show that Quran and the Bible [unaltered or altered] cannot go together - that the Bible alone is the standard of truth (and yes that does make me a fundamentalist - no different to an Islamic terrorist eh?! What does that say about the books?!) - and what it says about Jesus, the Son of God, who is the only way to Heaven.
------------------------------------------
how did he creat the universe???wasn't he born later??much much later.
For the very fact that Jesus is God - only becoming manifest as the living and talking/walking Jesus that we know from history. This then is still the stumbling block
Look I dont claim to fully understand the nature of Christ being the only begotten of God - my limited understanding can go as far as to say that the Father and the Son are given the Names because of their nature towards us - aiding our understanding. We can understand many themes
*what it means for a father to love a son - how difficult it would be to sacrifice your own flesh and blood
*the son is the heir to the father - all that the Fathers will one day be the Sons
*The son obeys the will of the father - the son was obedient to come to earth not in majesty but as a servant - even to the point of death on the cross (as quoted above) but this does not mean that any of their characteristics are different
There are probably others that i cant think of right now.
------------------------------------------
and also u seemed to negelect how many hypocrate befor said that God is speaking through them,why didn't he write it through Jesus.
Again if it was all through one man then it would be more vulnerable to attacks to its consistency. No offence - but take the Mormons - one guy had a visit from an angel in a dream - do i doubt thats an angel? maybe - maybe not - but the angel was not from God. However it doesnt mean i believe him - because its just one guy - he could be anybody, there is no proof he's the only attested from God. He's only one man with one (stand alone) conviction with no attestation but his own experience (which was a dream which is all a bit iffy anyway and some other weird things). Could God have done it through one man? sure why not? But was it the best thing? I'd say not because of the way the Bible was gradually revealed to us - and that includes the Quran because of its mention of the Bible and how that was revealed and then given as definitive. I dont think this is a major issue - however i believe because it was revealed the way that it was makes it more reliable.
------------------------------------------
but this part dosn't tell us to follow the.becuase the truth is that the bible is from God,but that dons't mean it was changed,and in Islam,Jesus had a complete bible(not the one that was written later).although the new one is partly related.
ok, so lets use the Old Testament, as that was all Jesus had... and see what some of these prophets said about Him. I believe the whole Bible is written so that we see what we are in ourselves - sinful before God - and the solution God has given, that is Jesus the Son of God (not begotten and eternally God), thus setting it completely apart from the Quran which denies that very fact - i.e. the whole Bible.
Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
This is God speaking judgment to Eve - note it speaks of one who will bruise (better translated crush) the head of the serpent - i.e. the Devil and sin, and you shall bruise His heal. So obviously the devil will inflict some sort of damage on this 'he' but it would not keep him down. Note also that it speaks of 'her' offspring - it could have been Adam's but it wasn't - there's only one woman who alone gave birth to a baby - a son, that is Jesus. What would Jesus do? Defeat the Devil once and for all and He too will experience some pain, but it will not defeat Him.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Here God is the famous covenant of Abraham with God. What does God promise - an innumerable descendants. Who were the descendants? The Jews? No - it is Christians (this is shown in the New Testament more clearly). Why? Read the next verse... His ground for righteousness was never about Abraham's blood (or circumcision for that matter) it was always of his faith (belief). Abraham had a faith that saved him from the punishment that is Hell.
Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
Psa 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Taken from Psalm 2 (written by David) which talks about the Lord who has reserved all of creation for who? my Son? Who's that? And who are the only people who are safe from His wrath (Hell)? - those who take refuge in Him... in who? Jesus, the Son.
One more very graphic passage...
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
It pleased God to crush Him (speaking of the Son (52:13). Why, because the Son had done wrong? No. So God punishes the innocent? No. So why punish the innocent Jesus? It was an offering for sin - so that the sons of God (the adopted, that is those who have taken refuge in Christ) may be prospered (go to Heaven). Out of the anguish of the Son shall God's anger against sin be poured out and be appeased (satisfied) allowing a way for those who believe on Him to go to Heaven. And what does He do at the end of the passage? He makes interecession - who? between the sons of God and God Himself. Why? Because God is a personal God who loves the fellowship with the creme de la creme of His creation - humans - untainted with sin (as we were created). This is not possible now because of the barrier of sin - something which God clearly cannot leave unpunished (even to the price of His own Son).
I'm spending too much time on this - do you get my point?
I dont know exactly what Islamic beliefs are... I don't know what you think about Heaven, how you get there, the nature of Allah, the purpose of man, escatology (end times) etc, but the Bible is thoroughly black and white about it - if you don't believe in Jesus, you will not get into Heaven, because Romans 3:23 tells us that
as allways i will try to replay at home,anyway i did some quick reading.
sometimes u miss qouted me,and the other times u didn't seem to read all as in this..
u said:
"and about mary
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
What does this show?? "
if u read what is befor it,u will know that i was confirming u word,
anyway i have to check my post,maybe i miss wrote,and i swear ,as i was copying the line from the (New Text Document) i swear i saw some lines dissapearing.
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gooooz fra ba
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2006 07:38PM by Hakkinenf1.
sometimes u miss qouted me,and the other times u didn't seem to read all as in this..
u said:
"and about mary
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). (Maryam 19:27)
Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). (Maryam 19:34)
What does this show?? "
if u read what is befor it,u will know that i was confirming u word,
anyway i have to check my post,maybe i miss wrote,and i swear ,as i was copying the line from the (New Text Document) i swear i saw some lines dissapearing.
-------------------------
gooooz fra ba
-------------------------
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2006 07:38PM by Hakkinenf1.
Let this thread die already. Just accept you have a difference of opinion and move on. Let go.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2006 09:11PM by The _F1_Lunatic.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2006 09:11PM by The _F1_Lunatic.
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