Alonso 2008??? Renault ??? possible combination???

Yes but Massa hasn't had any mechanical retirements from races, Kimi has had two.

Pretty much the same cause they compromise the race anyways...

Kimi made a mistake in monaco and compromissed his race, Massa's yet to make a mistake on his own that comprimisses his own race, all of the problems he's had are out of his control

I think he's done enough to keep his seat safe at Ferrari

What??? Massa has not made a mistake to compromise his race yet? Which season are you watching mate? He screwed up in Malaysia, Canada and Hungary. Or are you going to tell me now that Ferrari is to blame for those issues alone? I'm still now sure about that thing in England as well...

I'm not saying Ferrari will kick him out anyway...I just think the tendency is Kimi to beat Massa consistently from now on, since the car seems to be working well for Kimi.

For a person quick to defend Raikkonen for any reliability problems he's had you sure hold Massa to a different standard...

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I never liked Massa, and I find it kinda strange to see everyone putting him on a pedestal. He is a good driver, but he is nowhere near Kimi, Alonso and Schumacher. If he wins a championship, it'll be cause he had the best car on the grid and no really close competitor. When he joined Ferrari last year, I thought it would be cool to have another Brazillian in a winning car...5 or 6 races in, I had changed my mind. Anyway, I just think it's unfair to say Massa didn't make a mistake this season yet, cause he obviously did, and not just a single one.

lol i dont put noone in a pedestal since senna.

im saying the facts bud , both massa and raikkonen are excelent drivers anyways i cant say that one of them is well better than the other , maybe in next year if ferrari fix issues we can see someone puting a clear advantage but not atm ...

if you analyse the thing by another way raikkonen has more time in great teams and he had partners like montoya what means that the team wasnt only working for 1 pilot as a main and we saw how fast can raikkonen be

and for massa see ..its only his 2nd year in a great team and in the 1st he finished in 3rd place in WC with MS as main pilot of ferrari that was obvious so no many things to do about that

so i completely disagree about massa being overrated and this thing that he cant get near raikkonen...anyways i respect your opnion and a good discussion xD~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 10:57PM by Rodrigo007.

I'm also not saying he can't get near Raikkonen. There'll be races where he'll win and beat Kimi, just like JPM did in 2005 in a few races. But I think on the long run Kimi will be faster, and I think I would say that even if I was not a Kimi fan. I guess we have to wait for the end of this year and see what happens. They are virtually tied right now, so both have equal chances of beating each other.

agree with you when you say to wait the end of the season anyways good discuss bud! xD~~

I don't think Massa is that great, after all Fisichella beat him at Sauber.

I don't like comparisons between drivers when you are relating different years as well. When Massa drove with Fisi at Sauber, he was a rookie and Fisi was already a race winner. If you go that route, than Heidfield is better than Kimi, but if you look at the results as a whole, Kimi won 11 races and Nick none, so I think it is a bit weird to compare like that.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't like comparisons between drivers when you
> are relating different years as well. When Massa
> drove with Fisi at Sauber, he was a rookie and
> Fisi was already a race winner. If you go that
> route, than Heidfield is better than Kimi, but if
> you look at the results as a whole, Kimi won 11
> races and Nick none, so I think it is a bit weird
> to compare like that.


rookie ?
you are joking arnt you?
he had a full years drive and a years testing with ferrari, rookie by no means.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

no, he's not joking and
yes he was a rookie when in sauber

biography by f1live.com:
90/97 Karting, Brazil
1998 F. Chevrolet, Brazil
1999 F. Chevrolet, Brazil, 1°
2000 F. Renault, Italia & Europe, 1°
2001 Euro 3000, 1°
2002 F1 (Sauber), 13°, 4 points <---< ROOKIE (debut in f1)
2003 F1 (Ferrari), test driver <--< only ferrari test driver 1 year later :PPP
2004 F1 (Sauber), 12°, 12 points
2005 F1 (Sauber), 13°, 11 points
2006 F1 (Ferrari), 3°, 80 points



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2007 03:30AM by Rodrigo007.

Hmmm...mixed up the years a little bit. Indeed, he wasn't a rookie anymore. Still, he was fairly new in the Formula 1 scene, while Fisi is there since 1996.

Massa was not a rookie when he was teamates with Fisi in 2004, he was a rookie in 2002 with Heidfeld and did a year of testing in 2003 with Ferrari before going back to Sauber in 2004.

Yeah, I corrected myself above

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't like comparisons between drivers when you
> are relating different years as well. When Massa
> drove with Fisi at Sauber, he was a rookie and
> Fisi was already a race winner. If you go that
> route, than Heidfield is better than Kimi, but if
> you look at the results as a whole, Kimi won 11
> races and Nick none, so I think it is a bit weird
> to compare like that.


How can you say Kimi is definately better than Nick just because hes won 11 races to Nicks 0? Because Nick has been stuck driving mediocre Saubers and Jordans most of his career compared to Kimi in Mclarens and Ferraris. Nick has finally got a good car, and when BMW take the next step, he will be a winner.

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Yes it's hard to compare the careers of Nick and Kimi in relation to the competitiveness of their cars over the years. However if you go back and see how little experience Kimi had in single seaters before coming to F1, he has been awesome.
In raw talent i'd put Kimi above Nick for certain.

The fact that after the money Merc and mclaren invested in Nick and they would rather have had kimi in the car sort of says it all.

Which in turn led to a paradox situation in 2003 where Coulthard had a McLaren contract for 2004 and Heidfeld was on the brink of leaving Formula 1 completely.

Says it all about decision making in F1, right?

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I was reffering to the mclaren seat in 2002 mclaren could have had nick or kimi.

It took a while for nick to get over that.

And yes he was nearly out of F1 was saved by Jordan and has not looked back since.

Nick had a tough start in f1 with prost and with alesi as a team mate but got over that at Sauber.