Xbox 360 or Playstation 3?

Look at early PS2 titles, awful games.

GT3? That was one of the early ones and looks as good as the PS2 gets.

I can deny numbers because quite simply, on umbers the PS2 should be much better than it actually is, when in reality on the GT took it too the max and nobody got close. Numbers are completely useless until they actually provide a product.

Aside from how games look, its about having a garanteed 60fps, full screen AA and AF (maxed out) ALL the time.

And you think Consoles give you that? Far from it. Many console games experience slow down and have done since the early days and always will. Having a console does not ganrantee you'll get the uberest graphics at all times.

Besides, I'd wager that in 1 year, you WILL see the difference, between your PC, and the consoles.

Doubt it. BIf they even manage to get it running perfectly with the console (something the PS2 never ever achived outside a hadnfull of games), PCs will have rpogress far beyond the graphics apaeabilities of any of the consoles yet again.

And when you ignore graphics and take into account physics and other such stuff, no console has been capeable of physics engines as advanced as even the most basic PC ones.

Back on topic (yet again...)

Mark, was just thinking, i cant remember seeing any damage to the box when i took it back. The Argos ones are secuirty taped up. when the tape comes off its meant to damage the packaging (so you know if its been removed). Think this guy didnt bother opening it and returned it? lol

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no console has been capeable of physics engines as advanced as even the most basic PC ones.

half-life 2 for xbox has its (rather awesome) physics engine completely intact, and loads of games for 360 will use unreal engine 3 which will have even more advanced physics.

First person shooters dont has advanced physics engine as motorsport or flight simulators. I cant think of any simulations from those 2 generes other than Richard Burns Rally which was dumbed down slightly for the PS2. Half Lifes 2s engine isnt actually that complex outside the body movemnts. Its just extremely extensive. Almost all of the things it does have been in previous engines, this just combines them all brilliantly. HL2s graphics engine is the majorly impressive one (too under-rated in manys opinion, looks better than Doom3s any day of the week. Doom 3s is just lights and shadows, HL2s is the full thing)

Dont think I've played any game with Unreal 3s engine, got a list of avalible ones?

Mind if i try and get us on topic again, especailly now this console is out and a few here have it...?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2005 06:24PM by DaveEllis.

there are no games out yet with unreal engine 3

Mark, was just thinking, i cant remember seeing any damage to the box when i took it back. The Argos ones are secuirty taped up. when the tape comes off its meant to damage the packaging (so you know if its been removed). Think this guy didnt bother opening it and returned it? lol

Tell you one thing, when it turned up today, the box was battered to hell! Must be right about DHL Dave!

Seems Gameplay haven't sent my extra games today but been playing PGR3 quite a bit, tis very fun! :D MCE works now, which is handy All seems good!


PSN/Xbox 360 ID - Ianwoollam

read today that the biggest chain here with electronics (Best Buy, screw Wal-Mart ) will only get a new stock of X360 on the 18th, so I imagine Europe should be getting a couple of days later (I guess this post is aimed more towards Ian and his gadget-purchases )

lol dave - let's get back on topic - once I've waded in with my opinions anyway.


You're talking in such generalities.


The consoles wont have physics close to PCs? wtf. Dude, do physics require fast cpus? Yes? Then a 3 core 3.2ghz Power PC cpu (basically 3 apple mac g5 cores) isn't as much power as whatever cpu you have?

You can ignore numbers if you like. Yes spin is put on them, but there's no denying that physics depend on CPU power - and the consoles have bucketloads of the stuff - more than any mainstream (ie not servers) pcs have.

Physics engines for driving games being trhe most complex? Proof please. HL2 has insane physics - so much is deformable. Water. Wind. Air boats, buggies. Guns. You're basing your opinion on conjecture there, and that's worth nothing.

60fps - I'm talking this generation. I have been all the way through for goodness sake. One stipulation for the xbox360 is that it myust maintain 60fps at all times. It does in COD2, and all the other games.


GT3 DID look amazing, I don't deny it. BUT, look at the majority of games. THe real quality (as in the entire package - not just graphics) came later. GT3 was very short. It was a graphics showcase, ot a game. I know I wasn't the only one masively disappointed having waited for a new version of GT following the beast game ever, GT2. GT3 was not very good. GT4 was the ps2's GT2.



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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal

apple mac

I don't want my xbox anymore


PSN/Xbox 360 ID - Ianwoollam

The consoles wont have physics close to PCs? wtf. Dude, do physics require fast cpus? Yes? Then a 3 core 3.2ghz Power PC cpu (basically 3 apple mac g5 cores) isn't as much power as whatever cpu you have?

Richard Burns Rally was dymbed down because the PS2 could not cope with the physics advancements for 1 car, nevermind alot of cars which is whats being asked of newer conesoles.

HL2 has insane physics - so much is deformable. Water. Wind. Air boats, buggies. Guns. You're basing your opinion on conjecture there, and that's worth nothing.

All of which has been easily done before. The vehicles have incredibly basic physics, that was a given when HL2 was released. Out of those, water physics are the most complex. Sorry, but the guns have physics? No, the projectile has physics and the moving of objects when it with it isnt not that complex when compared to other things.

As far as Physics go, NR2003 and RBR dominate the motorsports side of sims. NR2003 has the wind you talk about and aerdynamics of it, as well as the wind being dynamicly effected by every car there is, and the tempaerture of it, etc. RBR models literally thousands of different parts in the car. When you go over a bump it doesnt model the suspension has a whole, it models each single part of it individually. It even measures right down to the exuahst temperature. As far as a single car physics go, RBR is light years head of any other sim out there.

HL2 isnt one big massive complex engine. Its a bunch of less complex smaller ones combined into an awesome package.

60fps - I'm talking this generation. I have been all the way through for goodness sake. One stipulation for the xbox360 is that it myust maintain 60fps at all times. It does in COD2, and all the other games.

Yeah see GP4 had that too. a fixed FPS. And as shown, it doesnt work at all because to maintain the FPS, the game has to slow down. So if at any point in the game it has to render a little too much it sticks at 60FPS, but the game slows down below real time. the command and conquer series did it on Consoles and it lagged horrendusly which is why they totally dropped the engine from it.

GT3 DID look amazing, I don't deny it. BUT, look at the majority of games. THe real quality (as in the entire package - not just graphics) came later.

Dont twist it. You were talking about graphics -
Rifght now a PC may look better, but in 1 year the consoles are going to look so much better. Look at early PS2 titles, awful games.

Fact is, the PS2 graphics capeability was maxed right out of the box. It was only met again by a few titles, but it was maxed right from the off. You (or me) didnt mention the game as a whole in this case, only the graphics.

lol dave - let's get back on topic - once I've waded in with my opinions anyway.

Yeah see thats all fine and well, but if you insist on doing that (and why shouldnt you), then please dont come up with stuff like this again:

Posted by: -qwerty- (IP Logged)
Date: December 2, 2005 08:54AM

What?! Dave Ellis shying away from an argument? Not wanting to bring up the same old arguments?! Do my eyes deceive me

And to think you moan about me all the time and practice the stuff you complain about eh.

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D>
> Richard Burns Rally was dymbed down because the
> PS2 could not cope with the physics advancements
> for 1 car, nevermind alot of cars which is whats
> being asked of newer conesoles.


As I said, I'm talking about the latest gen, not PS2 era.







>
> All of which has been easily done before. The
> vehicles have incredibly basic physics, that was a
> given when HL2 was released. Out of those, water
> physics are the most complex. Sorry, but the guns
> have physics? No, the projectile has physics and
> the moving of objects when it with it isnt not
> that complex when compared to other things.



Very anal. By guns I was refering to all gun - related things.



> As far as Physics go, NR2003 and RBR dominate the
> motorsports side of sims. NR2003 has the wind you
> talk about and aerdynamics of it, as well as the
> wind being dynamicly effected by every car there
> is, and the tempaerture of it, etc. RBR models
> literally thousands of different parts in the car.
> When you go over a bump it doesnt model the
> suspension has a whole, it models each single part
> of it individually. It even measures right down to
> the exuahst temperature. As far as a single car
> physics go, RBR is light years head of any other
> sim out there.
>
> HL2 isnt one big massive complex engine. Its a
> bunch of less complex smaller ones combined into
> an awesome package.


Again, conjecture. Find an article that details EXACTLY how the HL2 engine works. How it is "lots of little bits". Or the Unreal 3 engine. And besides, I'm not saying racing games arent complex in terms of physic, only that you're assuming FPSs arent. Which you have no basis for.



> 60fps - I'm talking this generation. I have been
> all the way through for goodness sake. One
> stipulation for the xbox360 is that it myust
> maintain 60fps at all times. It does in COD2, and
> all the other games.
>
> Yeah see GP4 had that too. a fixed FPS. And as
> shown, it doesnt work at all because to maintain
> the FPS, the game has to slow down. So if at any
> point in the game it has to render a little too
> much it sticks at 60FPS, but the game slows down
> below real time. the command and conquer series
> did it on Consoles and it lagged horrendusly which
> is why they totally dropped the engine from it.

Beautiful. I was hoping you'd say GP4. I know its been a while since you've played GP4 or GPx genrally, so I'll remiond you of the basics. GPx's FPS is set by Processor occupancy. The game slows down once it over 100% - as you say. You're making out this is the norm. Its not. No other games I know of do this. Certainly no racing games, its a flaw of the gpx series. So drop that one. 60fps is VERY acheiveable on the 360 / ps3 hardware, with full AA and AF.


> Dont twist it. You were talking about graphics -
> Rifght now a PC may look better, but in 1 year the
> consoles are going to look so much better. Look at
> early PS2 titles, awful games.
>
> Fact is, the PS2 graphics capeability was maxed
> right out of the box. It was only met again by a
> few titles, but it was maxed right from the off.
> You (or me) didnt mention the game as a whole in
> this case, only the graphics.


I ewasnt talking only about graphics. All early releases ARE altogrether poor games. EVEN GT3. As I said, very lacking in content, to push for early release. Also GT4 is a better looking game, as are some FF games.



> lol dave - let's get back on topic - once I've
> waded in with my opinions anyway.
>
> Yeah see thats all fine and well, but if you
> insist on doing that (and why shouldnt you), then
> please dont come up with stuff like this again:
>
> Posted by: -qwerty- (IP Logged)
> Date: December 2, 2005 08:54AM
>
> What?! Dave Ellis shying away from an argument?
> Not wanting to bring up the same old arguments?!
> Do my eyes deceive me
>
> And to think you moan about me all the time and
> practice the stuff you complain about eh.
>
>



tbh dave, yuo KNOW you argue at the drop of a hat. I don't. Sometimes I think its just for the ake of arguing really. I just can't sit backand see you try to tell people that might not know different that consoles are crap.

The botom line is - for the money, you can't get close to it for graphics, enjoyment (surely you've enjoyed a few beers playing GT or PES with some matesround a mate's house?), power out of the box for the money.


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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal

Again, conjecture. Find an article that details EXACTLY how the HL2 engine works. How it is "lots of little bits". Or the Unreal 3 engine.

Uh, yeah. You ignored the bit totally when i was talking to matt about the unreal engine, good stuff. At no point did i say FPS physics were not complex either.

Beautiful. I was hoping you'd say GP4. I know its been a while since you've played GP4 or GPx genrally, so I'll remiond you of the basics. GPx's FPS is set by Processor occupancy. The game slows down once it over 100% - as you say. You're making out this is the norm. Its not. No other games I know of do this. Certainly no racing games, its a flaw of the gpx series. So drop that one. 60fps is VERY acheiveable on the 360 / ps3 hardware, with full AA and AF.

Uh, yes i know fine well how GP4 works. I played the GP series since GP1, i kinda know it well. Fact: GP4 is not the only game to use a fixed FPS, and is also not the only game to suffer slow down when trying to achive the fixed frame rate. I even named an entire series of games for you, but you ignored that also. So no, i wont drop that because simply because a game does have a PO button, does not mean they do not use the same fixed FPS system, which effects all graphics engines. In order to achive the frame rate it is fixed to when in high load situations the game must slow down.

I ewasnt talking only about graphics
Rifght now a PC may look better, but in 1 year the consoles are going to look so much better. Look at early PS2 titles, awful games.

Looks? You were totally talking about the looks of a game, and that is graphics. Infact, that entire paragraph was concerning graphics. So did you spend the entire paragraph talking about the graphics and then tag a general comment on the end? Sorry, dont buy it mate. You said it, its on the previous page

tbh dave, yuo KNOW you argue at the drop of a hat. I don't.

Yeah see me and Zcott love to argue. But usually we do it cos we're bored and like a piss take. But you will argue at a drop of a hat and behind me and Zcott (excluding GP4/F1 section, i dont go in there enough to even know who the hell most people are), you are easily 3rd with starting anc ontinue arguments mate

I just can't sit backand see you try to tell people that might not know different that consoles are crap.

I didnt say that either. If you want to argue, use what i said, not what you want me to say. I havent said a console is crap, especailly the 360.

The botom line is - for the money, you can't get close to it for graphics, enjoyment (surely you've enjoyed a few beers playing GT or PES with some matesround a mate's house?), power out of the box for the money.

Well, no tbh. I find consoles god awfully boring. (no doubt you'll read that as "consoles are crap". I have better things to be doing with my mates than sitting playing console games. What i do find is PC games to be far more grown up and sophisticated (altho there are millions of excpetions) than the dumbed down aimed at youngsters and chavs console gaming market.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Mark, was just thinking, i cant remember seeing
> any damage to the box when i took it back. The
> Argos ones are secuirty taped up. when the tape
> comes off its meant to damage the packaging (so
> you know if its been removed). Think this guy
> didnt bother opening it and returned it? lol


Probably did, was it a Core or a Premium?

Fact is, the PS2 graphics capeability was maxed right out of the box

I dont know a lot about ps2 games, but I do know that xbox games continued to get better looking throughout its life cycle (as already stated look at halo to halo 2)

PS2 as well. Play Madden 03 and then Madden 06 (the two I have ). Also take a look at ICO and Shadow of the Colossus

I'm only having one slight niggle with the 360.

You can't do anything while it's downloading a file, or it stops the download. It's only minor and I'm sure it'll be fixed with a Live update very soon.

"surely you've enjoyed a few beers playing GT or PES with some matesround a mate's house?)"

Any fun football loving / competitive guy with many mates would dude! So goes without saying really...:P

Consoles aimed at chavs? Jesus man I tell you what, if I ever need a lawyer to stand in court for me, can I ask you? You fight all the way to the bitter end even when you're talking rubbish!

"I have better things to be doing with my mates than sitting playing console games."

Like sitting on your own for hours and hours playing a driving game, practically to the point of sad obsession?

Probably did, was it a Core or a Premium?

Do the boxes look significantly diffiert? I didnt pay attention to what it said. It was a white box with the cool green/white/yellow thin half circle lines. Are they both like this?

I dont know a lot about ps2 games, but I do know that xbox games continued to get better looking throughout its life cycle (as already stated look at halo to halo 2)

Ps2 games did slightly improve but not much. GT3 took it to almost the max and GT4 took it slightly further and took it as far as it will go. Realisticly, no other games improved that much over time and only made small graphics improvements, and none of them got close to what the GT series managed to achive. GTA for example made some improvements from 3-VC-SA but not that much.

I'll ignore Cai's post cos its just an excuse for a personal dig tbh

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DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Probably did, was it a Core or a Premium?
>
> Do the boxes look significantly diffiert? I didnt
> pay attention to what it said. It was a white box
> with the cool green/white/yellow thin half circle
> lines. Are they both like this?


Core = Green Box
Premium = White Box

hmmm, interesting, he probably got one from Argos as a backup for his other order, at least he didn't try and make some money out of it by selling it on Ebay.

It was the mainly white one with the coloured rings, so Premium going by what you said

That one i think-



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Sorry - been away for the weekend. Where were we?

Maybe Cai's post does come across as offensive - but his point is valid. Who's to say what a good use of time with mates is? Whether it be playing 4 player PES5, or ravcing a 24hr league race with gav and glyn or whatever? Each to his own, and I don't think it matters what we individually fel is a good use of time with mates. Personally I like going to the pub and then crashing at someone's house, play some Rugby 2005 or something, watch a film. Maybe you d othe same but race instead. Not bothered.

And consoles arent for chavs, surely. I actually use mine ot play DVDs and CDs as much as gaming on it tbh. I'm not a chav - I don't wear shell suits or threaten old ladies, or have an ASBO

In any case, for me a console is better fun for the money than a gaming PC. I'd love an xbox360, but I'll wait till I'm out of the red before getting one - my ps2 rocks anyway.

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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal