The official 2009 Belgian Grand Prix thread ***SPOILERS***

He arguably had more momentum (LOL!) and yes Fuji is another example of why Hamiltons penalty was biggest pile of sh*te.

I wont be happy until Lewis is rightfully given his Spa victory!!!!!

edit - The talk of cutting chicanes will crop again in two weeks time.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 02:56PM by chet.

Kimi lost a position. He gained momentum through the superior Ferrari and KERS, not through running off the exit of the corner. Lewis cut the corner to avoid losing the position and keeping the momentum. There is a *massive* difference. They aren't even on the same scale.

This is before you open it up to include other examples. Running wide on the exit of a corner has never been a punishable offence. If it was then everybody would have been disqualified in all of the Austrian GPs. However cutting the course to avoid losing positions/momentum, or to gain an advantage has always been a punishable offence.

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chet Wrote:
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How is it any different to Button at Valencia?

Button couldn't turn in at Valencia. His rear end was all over the place. There's no way he could have made the corner, regardless of whether Webber was there or not.

As has been said, Charlie apparently gave the green light to using the area. Kimi lost out to Kubica as a result of using the area (that Heidfeld and Trulli messed up the corner shouldn't be a factor - as above, they were allowed to use that run off in order to avoid situations like that).

Regarding Fuji - should they both have been given penalties? It's not like they were affecting anyone elses race. They both gained and lost. Give each a 25 second penalty for each time they left the track?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 03:04PM by gav.

They at least need to put something in the run off area, bumps or something because I understand being allowed to use it but Kimi looked to completley exploit it being there. If you off track you should lose out. Bumps would be a good way of doing that.

Gav - There's no way he could have made the corner

My thoughts too.

Why on earth was he told to let Webber past... Again a decision costing him massivley.

Anyway, whats the best for a couple of lose front wings in Monza? I reckon the retifilio could get abit messy! KERS cars gonna gain massivley at the race start! Two Ferraris, two Mclarens, and maybe two Renaults all ploughing in maybe a good 10km/h or more quicker!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Barrichellos view of the Button Grosjean was interesting. Grosjean didn't lunge down the inside. He was already there.

Edit: Kimis view also shows he lost momentum.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 03:18PM by DaveEllis.

Also listen at David at 1.11 in that clip: How much of an advantage is it to go wide there David?
David: Oh none at all your picking up dirt on your tyres but if you have to go there to avoid other cars then you do it, but you see there's quite a gap to Giancarlo (should be Kubica..) into Eau Rouge but a massive speed trough the middle of Eau Rouge and Giancarlo (Kubica) probably had to lift slightly.
It might be only me, but I think David knows it better then Chetson





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 03:43PM by Iceman-Kimi.

chet Wrote:
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> They at least need to put something in the run off
> area, bumps or something because I understand
> being allowed to use it but Kimi looked to
> completley exploit it being there. If you off
> track you should lose out. Bumps would be a good
> way of doing that.

Oh, you won't find me disagreeing with that! I'm a firm subscriber to Brundles "they should put big spikes in there" theory (Magny-Cours 1997 I think it was... perhaps 1999).

I hate all these endless run-off zones. There should be something to seriously discourage use that won't compromise safety, but I can't think what. Ooh, stick bales on the side of the track again, between the track and the run off! Bales - yay. Proper old school. The way forward is to look back! :D

That said, the run-off at La Source has been there for decades, and used without penalty for decades too. Up until last year it was just an extension of the track. The only thing that's changed is the flat kerb and strip of grasscrete - that's the reason they don't use it now I guess.

In all fairness Kimi did a Monaco 06 there. He "bothered" to turn in and then just figured 'nah' due to Charlie allowing all drivers to take the run off incase of any problems.

They at least need to put something in the run off area, bumps or something because I understand being allowed to use it but Kimi looked to completely exploit it being there. If you off track you should lose out. Bumps would be a good way of doing that.

Fair point but putting bumps or something would certainly damage the car extensively and it wouldn't be classed as a "Get out of Jail free card" anymore.

Look at it from a Free Practice perspective. You're trying to find the limit of the track and car and you run wide heavily. You're screwed for setup as you've effectively written of the bottom of the car.

Only reason we're debating about it is due to Kimi gaining more speed from the run-off due his "KERZ" If he didn't have "KERZ" and didn't use that boost then he wouldn't even around the top 4. He'd been down the order around 10th or something.

The Sutil vs Badoer thing was scary as hell. Looking on TV it wasn't much, but can you imagine doing 190mph through Eau Rouge and the guy immediately in front seems to lift off unexpectedly?

Exactly, I had my hands covering my eyes when I saw that !

gav Wrote:
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> I hate all these endless run-off zones. There
> should be something to seriously discourage use
> that won't compromise safety, but I can't think
> what.


Maybe the stuff they use in the run-offs at Paul Ricard, but that would be too expensive probably for most tracks.

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X (@ed24f1)

Why would that fix the issue?

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Maybe the stuff they use in the run-offs at Paul Ricard, but that would be too expensive probably for most tracks

Yup they could use that. However, most GP organisers are making a loss at every GP that we've been to this year so to accommodate the Paul Ricard run-off would just loose out and give us the alternating GPs

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Running wide on the exit of a corner has
> never been a punishable offence.

Lewis was punished in 2008 because of running wide at the end of S-F line.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Why would that fix the issue?

It slows the cars down, hence discouraging the drivers from using the run-offs, as per the question.

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X (@ed24f1)

SchueyFan Wrote:
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> DaveEllis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why would that fix the issue?
>
> It slows the cars down, hence discouraging the
> drivers from using the run-offs, as per the
> question.


It is high grip paint. It slows spinning cars down.

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David knows it better then Chetson

Hes got a sqaure chin, any one who looks like him doesnt have an opinion and if he does its certainly wrong !

Gav, what was Magny cours 97 or 99?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

That Brundle said that the chicanes should have spikes to avoid cutting.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> SchueyFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DaveEllis Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why would that fix the issue?
> >
> > It slows the cars down, hence discouraging the
> > drivers from using the run-offs, as per the
> > question.
>
>
> It is high grip paint. It slows spinning cars
> down.

Yes, but i would be surprised if it also didn't slow down cars driving over it, at least to some extent.

If not, there is probably a variant of this that would discourage the cars going over the run-offs.

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X (@ed24f1)

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They at least need to put something in the run
> off
> > area, bumps or something because I understand
> > being allowed to use it but Kimi looked to
> > completley exploit it being there. If you off
> > track you should lose out. Bumps would be a
> good
> > way of doing that.
>
> Oh, you won't find me disagreeing with that! I'm a
> firm subscriber to Brundles "they should put big
> spikes in there" theory (Magny-Cours 1997 I think
> it was... perhaps 1999).

Martin made that comment early on during the 2000 Monaco GP after someone(think it was Jenson) casually cut across the chicane.


> I hate all these endless run-off zones. There
> should be something to seriously discourage use
> that won't compromise safety, but I can't think
> what. Ooh, stick bales on the side of the track
> again, between the track and the run off! Bales -
> yay. Proper old school. The way forward is to look
> back! :D

Big lightweight polystyrene marker blocks like they had at Hockenheim in the late 80s/early 90s. I always thought they were good.
Failing that, stick lots of Velcro down on there and make special tyres that can interact with it!


> That said, the run-off at La Source has been there
> for decades, and used without penalty for decades
> too. Up until last year it was just an extension
> of the track. The only thing that's changed is the
> flat kerb and strip of grasscrete - that's the
> reason they don't use it now I guess.

I don't remember when it was changed from the old "cul de sac" type layout to the nice long open one which Kimi made great use of. Think it was when the track was altered after 2005.

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EC83 Wrote:
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> Martin made that comment early on during the 2000
> Monaco GP after someone(think it was Jenson)
> casually cut across the chicane.

There's a Brundle quotes page!

Apparently he's said it twice. Once regarding Monaco 2000 and another regarding Ralf at Magny-Cours in 1999.

"It's very easy to take that decision to scamper across that no-mans land. There should be big spikes in there, it's too much of a soft option there." Source: 2000 archive

"Ralf misses his braking point and goes across the green tarmac there. That used to be all gravel. They make it too easy for these drivers these days. They should have poles in there with spikes." Source: 1999 archive

Ah, cheers for that Gav! Those quotes bring back some memories, especially the ones from the quali sessions in the late 90s because I watched them all live but didn't tape them like I did the races. :D

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