The official 2009 Belgian Grand Prix thread ***SPOILERS***

chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gav, being in font Button had every reason to
> close the gap (Grosjean nowhere near close enough
> alongside for JB to leave as much room as he
> actually did).

I didn't say he didn't - I was looking at it from Grosjean's point of view - he'd committed and then the space in front of him was taken away. I presume that's why he hasn't been penalised. Had he just driven into the side of Button, then fair enough, but from what I've seen so far, he didn't do that at all - he was just trying to follow Heikki but the door was shut in his face long after he had a chance to do anything about it.

the only annoyance is being updated about football and other rubbish in the middle of the race. spose it's not as bad as ad breaks though...

_______________________________________________________

Team Japan Owner - GPGNC

Monza972 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fincent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know this isn't directly related to what you
> > guys have been talking about in the last few
> > pages, but I thought the BBC commentary from
> > Legard (and I'm afraid to say Brundle as well)
> was
> > absolutely terrible this weekend! So bad infact
> > that I resorted to changing the audio stream to
> > Five Live for the first time this season during
> a
> > race, and I couldn't believe the improvement!
> > Croft and Davidson bounce off each other
> > brilliantly and have a flow between them
> whereas
> > Legard doesn't make the races seem entertaining
> or
> > exciting in the slightest and is always
> speaking
> > over Brundle. He's always stop start as well,
> > leaving long gaps often and just churns out
> > irrelevant data "track temperature is this,
> > ambient temperature is that" about three times
> a
> > lap. There's overtaking going on and he's like
> > "and who have we got here? he's got through..."
> > and Brundle says "that's heidfe-" and then
> Legard
> > starts up again "he's got through and moved up
> > another place, but is it good enough?". Aaaagh!
> >
> > I can tell Brundle is getting fed up, he doesnt
> > sound anywhere near as enthusiastic as he used
> to
> > . I advise all people watching in the UK to
> > press red and listen to FiveLive commentary,
> you
> > don't know what you're missing
>
> I also want to switch to the 5Live commentary but
> I miss the commentary from Martin and Ted who's
> there at the right time and has the info. 5Live
> gets delayed news due to Holly needing to go there
> and getting info

I think Jonathan Legard's apathy is dragging Martin down a bit too TBH. Every race, the commentary box seems to have a general mood of "meh".
I agree with Gav's opinion that David Croft should be on the race commentary, I think he'd liven it up a good bit, and his energy would be reflected more by Martin too.

---

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 01:14AM by EC83.

Good start by kimi!








Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 03:07AM by micky-cannonball.

As a side note on the BBC coverage, I proper laughed out loud in the pre-race show when they had the golf thing with Rubens and Eddie. When Eddie dived into the swimming pool, Rubens just cast a long, lamenting glance at it and said in a crestfallen voice, "That pool will never be clean again..."

:D :D

---

K*bots UK, specialist providers of 'fun science' Curriculum Enhancement days for Primary and Secondary schools in Britain.
Please find us on [en.wikipedia.org] for more information.

marcuzzi schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> on kimi's move: for me it's clear that he goes out
> to avoid the collision, but by doing this he
> overtakes trulli, and gains a position, then
> defends it
>
> in this case, it doesn't matter if the corner
> is shorter or longer, or if one gains or loses
> time compared to a normal lap, kimi was faster
> running wide that trulli staying on track. the
> rules are clear, this is illegal and must be
> punished with a drive-thru.


if you look at the onboard at Kimi, he's ahead before he goes of the track

onboard: Kubica

wreckless? or unlucky?

Pluis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> marcuzzi schreef:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > on kimi's move: for me it's clear that he goes
> out
> > to avoid the collision, but by doing this he
> > overtakes trulli, and gains a position, then
> > defends it
> >
> > in this case, it doesn't matter if the
> corner
> > is shorter or longer, or if one gains or loses
> > time compared to a normal lap, kimi was faster
> > running wide that trulli staying on track. the
> > rules are clear, this is illegal and must be
> > punished with a drive-thru.
>
>
> if you look at the onboard at Kimi, he's ahead
> before he goes of the track


no one did complain it (drivers or teams) and Charlie Whiting said before the race in drivers meeting that if any problems at first corner use the runoff area. on Kimi's onboard camera you can clearly see he is trying to turn the corner but there is no room because of Trulli so he goes wide . also without Rubens stalling to the grid Kimi would have got so good start that he would have led the pack to the first corner!

yo-gurt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> onboard: Kubica
>
> wreckless? or unlucky?
>
>




Bloody good job to avoid taking them both out of the race frankly.




vesuvius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> also without Rubens stalling to the grid Kimi
> would have got so good start that he would have
> led the pack to the first corner!

LOL.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 11:25AM by gav.

Button, Kimi and Luca using run-off.

Button gained no posistions, maybe even lost out. Luca well you cant see? But Kimi looked to move in front of the pack he was along side? What are peoples take on that? Also, Sutil overtook Luca with all 4 wheels off the track...Now we persume Kimi/Button/Luca avoided contact by taking to the escape road, but whats the difference between what happened at the first corner and Button's move at Valencia. Button had no room to move inside at Valencia so cut the chicane (went off track) and got told to let Webber past. Kimi went off the track (fighting people alongside him) and gained an advantage and passed a toyota and BMW who we was fighting at the first corner. Nothing done. Sutil goes off track to overtake Badoer, nothing done.

of course to me all this relates to Spa 08. Kimi, 100% gained an advantage by taking to the run-off,. had he taken the corner normally he would not have been in the same posistion. Maybe Button too. Sutil overtook outside of what the FIA define the 'track' Button at Valencia Button did exactly what Kimi did at Spa, instead of the first corner it was 3rd yet he got told to move over for Webber. No penaltys for that yet same circumstances Hamilton gets stuffed. Button forced to move over for Webber.

I dont want any of those incidents to suffer penaltys, I just want consistency and clarification of why in cases of Spa 09 nothing was done and why Spa 08 Lewis lost out and of course why Button had to move over in Valencia for doing exactly what Kimi did here.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Going wide isn't an advantage, there is less grip, dirt so you get pick up on your tyres and you are traveling a longer distance.

He only gained due to Heidfeld and (and thus Trulli) running in too deep (as can be seen from Kubica's onboard). Apparently Charlie told them if there was no room then feel free to take to the run off. OK, Kimi took that to the extreme, but still.

He went in ahead of Kubica and came out behind him. No problem there for me.

Button lost a position too (to Heikki) as did Badoer (to Rubens).


It's not like cutting chicanes where you're missing part of the track. The run off has been used there since the early 80s when the track was redone (and prior to that it was part of the same tarmac, rather than an extension).

The Sutil vs Badoer thing was scary as hell. Looking on TV it wasn't much, but can you imagine doing 190mph through Eau Rouge and the guy immediately in front seems to lift off unexpectedly?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 01:48PM by gav.

Except it was Pouhon

Indeed it was. Ah well, knock 20mph off and it's still scary. :P

In 2008, when Lewis cut the chicane people told that if there was a wall, he wouldn't have cut the chicane and wouldn't have been at the position where he was. And for Kimi's situation, if there was a wall, he wouldn't have gone wide enough and wouldn't have end up at 2nd position.

Some did, but most of the complaints stemmed from Lewis carrying on from his chicane cutting and getting a chance into La Source, a chance he wouldn't otherwise have had.

That would be my only complaint regarding Kimi - that he immediately sprang on Kubica after Eau Rouge, but I think there is a big difference between the 2. Kubica was slow as heck through Eau Rouge, while Kimi kept his foot well and truly planted.

Anyway, as I said, Kimi was ahead of Kubica going into La Source anyway.

He was on throttle very early, full well intending to use the run-off. He did not need to do it as extreme as he did.

It's not like cutting chicanes where you're missing part of the track. The run off has been used there since the early 80s when the track was redone (and prior to that it was part of the same tarmac, rather than an extension).

Either way its the same principle. Going off track to avoid any disadvantage.. True? Buttons case was almost identical. Webber was almost alongside (not fully if I recall) but Button couldnt turn in otherwise would have had to slow down massivley and lost out badly. Kimi was alongside Nick and Trulli. Nick left him bags of room on the inside... Kimi could have easily just slotted in onto the green stuff. Nick gave him the room and Kimi avoided losing out by taking to the tarmac. How is it any different to Button at Valencia? Button avoided losing out so went off track and kept his posistion. Chicane or not Button got peanilized for apparently not attempting to take the corner so he wouldnt lose his posistion and yet Nick kindly leaves Kimi room to slot inside and Kimi completley off track. Going off track and gaining and advantage, or not losing posistions you may have done on track is the same whether its turn1 or a chicane.

Let's use the same logic they did with Lewis...

They said if he hadnt cut the chicane he would not have been in the same posistion to attack Kimi.

If Kimi had not gone to the extreme, and had he actualy tried to take the corner (he appeared to even bother try!) Kimi would not have been in the same posistion to eventually attack, Kubica, and therefore maybe even attack for the lead at the restart. The green certainly not as grippy as the dusty tarmac, he probably would have still ahd too much wheel spin to deploy KERS. It is potentially a race changing incident.

edit - these are my views as such. Im not too bothered by what Kimi did. Just that I see it as almost identical to Button in Valencia, and Lewis last year.

edit - Gav, Kimi was ahead of Kubica, but so was Trulli, so was Nick. Kubica just an awesome run-in and out of the corner.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 02:43PM by chet.

Either way its the same principle. Going off track to avoid any disadvantage.. True?

Cutting the corner and running wide are not the same principle.

Kimis gain on Kubica was the fact the Ferrari was epic through S1 (Even Badoer was setting purple sectors) and KERZ.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
theRacingLine.net
SportsCarArchives.com

He didnt run wide.

He drove wide.

Kimi avoided having to slow down so drove wide. Button avoided having to slow down so cut the chicane. Time/posistions gained through not taking a corner properly. Same principle.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2009 02:50PM by chet.

Kimi Was ahead of Kubica before the first corner and because he went wide Kubica overtook him, Like DC said he got no advantage what so ever from going wide, actually it was opposite, Kimi's tyres got dirty etc.

What Button did at valencia was different he did cut the chicane and Webber was already in front of him, Kimi didn't cut the chicane he did drove a longer distance than Trulli,Heidfeld or Kubica.

i don't see what the fuss is all about, Charlie Whiting did say it was ok to use the runoff area and none of other teams or drivers did complain about what Kimi did.

Also if U remember Massa vs Kubica at Fuji 2007, both did run away from the track and still overtook each other and no one did complain about it!