Japanese GP Race Thread ***SPOILERS***

Jagdpanzer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marco1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> On your statements: About Hamilton. I'm in total
> agreement. What a prick. I don't see how he will
> be able to fit a helmet on that noggin of his if
> his head swells any bigger. Just ask, he will tell
> you he is the greatest driver ever to sit in a
> race car, and Ron Dennis and McLaren were @#$%&
> until he came on the scene. He's the most
> insufferable ass I can remember seeing in F1.
>
>
> On Alonso: He has every right to be pissed. He's a
> 2 time World Champ lured to the team under false
> premises, and if Ron Dennis had any sense of honor
> he would give him a release from his contract so
> they could both part ways.
>
> On Hamiltons tactics: His brake testing under
> those conditions was worthy of a penalty, at least
> a stop and go, and he contributed directly to
> Webber and Vettel's accident with his clown - like
> antics. Combine that with him chopping across the
> front of Kubica and he should have been called in.
>
>
> This entire race stank to high heaven to me.
>
> First the ridiculous farce about starting behind
> the safety car. All this did was insure Hamilton a
> challenge free run from the pole. I would bet the
> house that had they had a normal start both Alonso
> and Kimi would have left him behind by the first
> turn.
>
> Second, the missing message to Ferrari, insuring
> they would be called in to pit and thusly removing
> two more of Hamilton's main opponents from
> consideration.
>
> Third, ignoring Hamilton's dirty tricks, his stop
> and go's behind the safety car, his chopping
> across the bow of Kubica, etc.


The more I read of this the less I can beleive.

Firstly drivers were complaining it was to dangerous to start at all it was a brave thing to call a start to the race when it was done, it was made under the safest conditions possible, a safety car. If Alonso was fast enough he would've got ahead of Hamilton in the pit stop but he got himself stuck behind other cars and got tangled up in there problems.

Why should Alonso be pissed? McLaren always had the policy that their drivers were equal until a certain point in the season where one is clearly ahead of the other one, did he expect McLaren to kiss his feet? If he had ever watched McLaren in the past he should've known better and hes been better served than stay at the slower Renault team.

Hamilton has every right to break test, its how Schumacher crashed with Montoya in Monaco a few years back I'd be willing to wager you Ferrari lot wouldn't be saying that the work of a cheating prick or whatever you chose to call him.

Furthermore notice the scandal was between De La Rosa and Alonso meaning that they have been sharing setups separate to that of Hamilton doesn't that sound a lot like preferential treatment to Alonso?

No way was Hamilton chopping off Kubica, it makes NO sense. He is racing Raikkonen and Alonso for the championship Kubica could've driven off into the sunset and won it, it wouldn't have really mattered. It is my opnion that championship contenders should be treated with a little more caution, nobody wants to see a championship decided by a driver tripping over someone who isn't a part of the battle. Though if he really felt he had the pace on him fair enough.

Hamilton has been fairly professional considering Alonso drove him off the road in Spa. People complain hes Ron's baby, Ron wants him to concentrate on his driving as all this spy stuff clearly did rattle him and he had been off the pace for quite a few races. Montoya isn't as fast as Alonso and Hamilton and Alonso are pretty evenly matched. He did well to skip off to Nascar before he was pushed out of McLaren.

FIA to back up emails with printed notices

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, September 30th 2007, 13:35 GMT

All email correspondence sent by the FIA to the Formula One teams will be backed up in the future by written confirmation as well, the governing body announced.

After Ferrari failed to receive before today's Japanese Grand Prix an email from the race stewards instructing all teams to fit extreme weather tyres on their cars before the race, the stewards discussed the matter late into the evening at Fuji.

A statement from the race stewards cited the 2007 Formula One Sporting Regulations, stating that "in exceptional circumstances Stewards or Race Director may give instructions to Competitors by means of special circulars in accordance with the Code and these circulars will be distributed to all competitors who must acknowledge receipt.

"At a meeting of the Formula One Sporting Working Group held in Monaco on 7th December 2006, all teams agreed to an electronic distribution system to ensure that all competitors received communications simultaneously, with no time advantage for a team by virtue of their location in the pitlane. This system has been used throughout the current championship year.

"To avoid any recurrence of today's problem, the agreed method of using electronic communications will continue to be used but in the future will be backed up by the traditional method of written confirmation."

Taken from Autosport.com; make of that what you will.

, all teams agreed to an electronic distribution system to ensure that all competitors received communications simultaneously

In order for them to receive it simultaneously, they must be sent to everyone at the same time. If Ferrari honestly didn't receive it than it is blatantly an error on there end.

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yeah and ferrari just one of eleven teams DaveEllis...


speed freak

I'm struggling to understand what you mean (but then again, it's rare I understand your post), however Ferrari being the *only* recipient which did not receive the email and Infoboard messages shows a technical error or communication break-down on there part.

Or of course, they are just flat out lying in order to cover up them attempting a similar strategy to what they have used in similar conditions before (Sepang)....you be the judge.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2007 03:32AM by DaveEllis.

in other words, ferrari either:

a) got the e-mail and chose to ignore it to try and gain an unfair advantage

b) are so badly organised lately, that they genuinly didnt read the e-mail when it was sent, and are to stubborn to admit it

Sim

---

All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now that the truth is out about the FIA's screw up
> on the tire message
>
> Would you care to provide a link to this "truth"
> which isn't a Ferrari interview? Because I'm yet
> to see anything from the FIA which shows a screw
> up.


Certainly....

[www.f1i.com]

FIA vows to improve notification methods

Written by Administrator

Sunday, 30 September 2007
Sep.30 (GMM) "The FIA on Sunday promised to improve its method for advising teams of important rule changes. Ferrari claimed after the Japanese grand prix that it was the only team that did not use extreme wet tyres for the start of the Japanese grand prix because it did not receive an email from the stewards. The FIA said "all competitors" with the exception of Ferrari received the email at 12:37pm -- more than an hour before the race started. "To avoid any recurrence of today's problem the agreed method of using electronic communications will continue to be used but in future will be backed up by the traditional method of written communication," F1's governing body said in a statement."

Seems pretty straightforwad to me, but you guys think Ferrari runs the FIA anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter..!



"There are some pikeys there at Turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that?" - Martin Brundle

well when u cann't understand my posts and others do, that is only mean the
problem is u not me, english isn't my mother language but i am doing the best
i can...

anyway what i meant with "ferrari just one of eleven teams" is that any team
could be fall in the same situation they are just one team from 11 on the gird
who could face the same problem, and the reason for all the argument on this
subject is becouse it happened to a front runner team and a big name like
ferrari who battling for the title, like in the spy-gate case if when it
happened with teams like spyker or toyota no one care but it happend to mclaren.

i hope u got it now.


speed freak

Jagdpanzer, please read that properly.

Ferrari claimed after the Japanese grand prix

The FIA said "all competitors" with the exception of Ferrari received the email at 12:37pm

At NO point does it say that the email was not sent, at NO point does it admit the FIA made a mistake. The word claim also shows that there is no proof either way that the email was not received. It is also a fact that the notice was posted on the Infoboard, because everybody who was meant to see it, seen it. If Ferrari did not see it on the infoboard then that is a technical issue on Ferraris end which the FIA cannot be held responsible for.

I ask again - please find me proof of this FIA screw up which you talk about. Because as it stands, the email was sent to everyone and only Ferrari failed to receive it, which is exactly what I have been saying all a long. So ironicaly, you've tried to prove me wrong but your lack of English skills has actually proved me right. You are right! It is pretty straight forward! Thanks!

Edit: assadof1, no I don't understand now, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2007 05:38AM by DaveEllis.

Dave that is without a doubt some of the most tortured logic I have ever read on this board.

The FIA claim they sent the notification to all the teams, and they then admit Ferrari did not receive the notification. So in fact they contradict themselves in that very sentence. How could they send it to all teams if all teams didn't receive it?

Whether or not Ferrari had technical problems on their end isn't the issue - the issue is whether the FIA did in reality get the notification to all the teams - and in this case they clearly did not. Hence their statement: "to avoid any recurrence of today's problem the agreed method of using electronic communications will continue to be used but in future will be backed up by the traditional method of written communication."

The key word in the statement is "problem". The usage of this word implies there was in fact a problem with FIA's communication of the tire choice.

Again, it seems very straightforward to me....



"There are some pikeys there at Turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that?" - Martin Brundle

The FIA claim they sent the notification to all the teams, and they then admit Ferrari did not receive the notification. So in fact they contradict themselves in that very sentence. How could they send it to all teams if all teams didn't receive it?

Have you never lost an email before? Or even physically not had mail delivered to you? A technical issue could easily have stopped the email from being received. If you have honestly never had an email lost then you may be the only person in the planet who has used an email system, never to have such an error, and certainly the only person arguing that such an error is not possible.

Secondly, several of you don't seem to know how the FIA Infoboard system works. It is a live board which the FIA post updates on and the teams are alerted by a what's basicly a pop-up system on screen to news which the FIA has posted. The system does not pick and chose which teams the information can receive the information - it is a message board and is the same for everybody. It is already a cold hard fact that the information was posted on the Infoboard. As I already stated, all of the teams received the information from it, ITV received the information from it (to 3 different commentators in 2 separate locations), SpeedTV commentators mentioned it and the Finnish TV commentators mentioned it (I am unaware if anyone else mentioned it, as I only had the coverage for these 3 countries available to me) and a source in the pit lane seen it with his own eyes. There is no disputing AT ALL that the message was posted for everyone to read. So even if the email system (which is a completely separate system run on a different network) did fail, the Infoboard system was working and the notice was posted - this is not up for debate and is a fact.

the issue is whether the FIA did in reality get the notification to all the teams - and in this case they clearly did not.

Negative. It is not the FIAs responsibility to make sure that Ferrari (or any team) cant receive the message. The FIAs responsibility is to make sure that the message is issued in the ways which the regulations state they should be issued, and by the current regulations, the email system and Infoboard are what they are issued by. Teams received the emails and the messages were posted on the Infoboard, therefore the FIA held its word with the regulations and did everything they were meant to. It is Ferraris responsibility to make sure they have the ability to receive the emails and notifications which the FIA posts.

The key word in the statement is "problem". The usage of this word implies there was in fact a problem with FIA's communication of the tire choice.

Incorrect. The word problem was used to describe the situation that Ferrari was in, it was not used to describe the proceeder which the FIA used to distribute the messages. You will also note that your own statement further backs up my previous point - the electronic system is the agreed method by the regulations, and going by what we know (that the message was in fact on the Infoboard and that other teams did receive the email), the FIA followed the regulations correctly and the problem was on Ferraris end.

If they did not receive the email then it is a technical error that Ferrari need to look at as we know the email was sent to everyone.

If they did not see the Infoboard update then it is a technical error which Ferrari need to look at as we know the message was posted.

If a team member did in fact get the email, or read the Infoboard and the messages were not relayed to the correct people then it is a breakdown in communication in the Ferrari team and this is something they need to look at.

If the team did receive the email and/or Infoboard message and chose to ignore it, starting on inters (a strategy they have used before, which should be noted) then they were correctly ordered to change tyres for disobeying the orders from race control.

Either way, the fact of the matter is the message was posted and the FIA followed the regulations correctly, as you pointed out in your own post. It is Ferraris responsibility to find out what went wrong and put a fix into operation. It should also be noted that the new backup system of using hard copies should not have to be done and is only being done out what appears to be kindness. When the Prost team had a breakdown of communications at Spa (2001 IIRC) and didn't know the start was to take place under the safety car, the FIA took no responsibility fir the problems as everybody else on the grid received the message fine and acted accordingly. Only Prost failed to get the message and the FIA did not modify the system for them. Ferrari should not only count themselves lucky for not being disqualified for a race for disobeying a direct order from race control, but should count themselves lucky that the FIA is being kinda and introducing a backup system when it is clear the problems came from inside the Ferrari camp.

Once again, this simply comes down to a basic understanding of the FIA systems, a basic understanding of the FIA regulations, a basic understanding of the situation which occurred, a basic understanding of the English language and properly reading the quotes involved, whether they be from Ferrari, the FIA, another team, or from journalists. It is not tortured logic, it is simply putting the facts together with the regulations and using common sense.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2007 07:44AM by DaveEllis.

We obviously see things very differently here. No real surprise there, eh?



"There are some pikeys there at Turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that?" - Martin Brundle

FIA, check your "sent" folder

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ferrari should not only count themselves
> lucky for not being disqualified for a race for
> disobeying a direct order from race control, but
> should count themselves lucky that the FIA is
> being kinda and introducing a backup system when
> it is clear the problems came from inside the
> Ferrari camp.


From what the commentators said the e-mail stated that if you went out on other tyres you would be shown a black and orange flag, meaning the drivers had to come in and change tyres. The punishment was stated in the e-mail so I don't think Ferrari were in any danger of being disqualified.

Stupid decision from them though, mainly because of the ruling but it was too wet for the inters.

FIA regulations are probably picked up by Ferrari's spam filter anyway

@ senna (the forum member): the idiot place in this comunity has already been taken, so please back off.

> My opinion on Hamilton brake-testing the
> opposition is reserved, save for this little
> titbit... he was running very close to the safety
> car quite a lot, so he'd have had to back off
> (brake at times) in order to see where the hell
> he's going. No driver I know of in the field would
> be that daft to sit behind that AMG Mercedes that
> close, he should have given it a couple seconds
> distance in that spray, at least.
>
yes, the start from the first safey car was a bit dodgy, but i've yet to see anyone given a penalty for doing that and i'm sure alonso would have done something similar.

To be fair to him on the second safety car, Webber was either right up his backside or along side him for most of the time.

Lewis said in the press conference was worried about being run into at that point. hence he speeded up to try to get a bit of a gap and ended up right behind the safety car.

Lewis said in the press conference was worried about being run into at that point.

If he was worried about being run into then he shouldn't have driven like he was driving.

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massa-kubica last lap dice proved that there could be decent racing in modern f1 only when there is nothing at stake. So maybie only the points system should be changed. eg. 10-5-3-2-1 for fist five finishers. then we should see what it brings, and if it doesn't bring anything then mess up the aero rules (winglets, etc)

turkey_machine Wrote:
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> Worth getting up at 4.15am for that race. I
> thought it was a certainty that they'd start
> behind the safety car, but didn't think they'd
> stay behind them for that long. 19 laps? That's a
> quarter race distance at reduced speed! I drained
> 2 cups of tea just trying to stay awake!

Bah, you girl. I drank 2 rather large mugs of coffee before the race had begun, and I only started watching it at 7am.

About as off-topic as you can get, but I've walked into work this morning to be greeted by a 24 pack of Red Bull from the boss. Apparently for sorting out her nephews laptop, I think she's trying to tell me something.

Get up? Real men stayed up for the race. I entertained myself with the TF2 beta, tuned into the F1 and then played TF2 for the rest of Sunday until the NASCAR, and I'm still awake now. Pussies.

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