Hamilton Complained To The Stewards...

"As has already been discussed, it would be impossible for Alonso to engineer the situation on his own in the pit box like suggested as the McLaren has no session time display on the dash or on the wheel."

For me is not a question of who engineered the situation. There was absolutely no reason for Alonso to have the conversation about tyres when there's no time to actually do anything about it.

"If thats true and Lewis simply wasnt fast enough but it was possible for a lap to be put in, it makes the penalty even more of a farce."

It's not true. A time for an out lap during the race was about 103 seconds including refueling, tyre change and getting in an out of the pit box. Alonso started moving with about 98 seconds still left. Hamilton only had 87 seconds to do his out lap.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 07:12PM by tripleM.

For me is not a question of who engineered the situation. There was absolutely no reason for Alonso to have the conversation about tyres when there's no time to actually do anything about it.

Oh yeah, I agree, Alonsos excuse was complete bollocks. But who was he covering up for? Himself? Or being told what to say by Ron?

I'm not disuputing that what happened afterwards was a bunch of stories made up by someone in McLaren to defend certain people. Im disputing the claims that Alonso did this on his own in the pit box, which is not only hilariously stupid, its impossible given the information he had avalible to him at the time. Someone told him what to do and when to do it.

You could even go as far as saying that if this was Rons doing and his reaction on the pit wall was simply to Lewis' outburst and not the situation occuring, that Alosno could have been simply obeying team orders directly from the radio. Whilst that one probably isnt the case it is entirely possible, unlike the suggestions of him making this up as he goes along.

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I think Alonso could have engineered this situation himself, he would have known time was tight anyway, and before he pitted he could easily have asked how long was left in the session or even asked during the pitstop. That wouldn't be too far fetched IMO, I'm not saying thats what happened though. Either way, I think the stewards must have had some pretty convincing evidence to find him, or his side of the pitwall, guilty.

And Hamiltons reaction over the radio is entirely understandable. The adrenalines pumping, your under a lot of pressure and your biggest rival for the title has just clinched pole at your expense, how would you react? I remember reading at the time he thought Dennis had done it on purpose to teach him a lesson for ignoring team orders. Its no way of talking to your team principle I agree, especially when he gave you the opportunity and cleared the path for you into F1 over a number of years, but at least he had the deceny to apologise for it.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 07:36PM by FRESCO.

I think Alonso could have engineered this situation himself, he would have known time was tight anyway, and before he pitted he could easily have asked how long was left in the session or even asked during the pitstop. That wouldn't be too far fetched IMO, I'm not saying thats what happened though. Either way, I think the stewards must have had some pretty convincing evidence to find him, or his side of the pitwall, guilty.

His side of the pit wall? Doesnt work like that. Even if it was Ron himself who engineered it then Alonso would still be given the penalty. Infact everyone in the team could have engineered it agaisnt Lewis and Alonso would have been given the same penalty. It wasnt his side of the pit wall that was penalised, it was Alonso, for being in the pit stall when he didnt have to be, even if the blame was elsewhere.

I think Alonso could have engineered this situation himself, he would have known time was tight anyway, and before he pitted he could easily have asked how long was left in the session or even asked during the pitstop.

RTL have a video highlighting the happenings on the pit wall. Alonso was counted down and released via the radio, that much is fact. Who engineered the situation is whats up in the air.

And Hamiltons reaction over the radio is entirely understandable.

Understandable doesnt make it acceptable, as you agreed.

You know, when JPM had these outbursts on the radio he was called a stupid child and stuff. Now Lewis is having them and its understandable and acceptable and all the rest of it. Wheres your standards people?

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Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> what exactly happened in qualifying - what team
> orders did he ignore? I never watched it. Unless
> anyone has clips or something?

this video might help:

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 08:42PM by Muks_C.

Er being in german and with no car audio doesn't really help to clarify why they circle a man at the pit wall - plus the quality is quite poo. You can see though that he doesn't go when the lollipop is raised.

What I was more asking (as the one you showed was more self explanatory from the phrase "alonso held up hamilton in the pits" was what exactly were the team orders that hamilton disobeyed.

H E L L O

Basically, this is what's said:

When the lollipop man raised the lollipop, Alonso didn't leave. He waited for the sign of his personal trainer, who stood at the pitwall (it appears Alonso looked to the left to be able to see him, I'm not sure he actually did it though). When the trainer gave the sign, Alonso drove off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 08:18PM by Nickv.

dave as I said in my post I dont think alonso cared if he did not get his final lap in either.

Lewis had to slow down for kimi and lost another few secs but would not have got his lap in anyway.

That video makes it look even worse alonso sat there for ages.

The lewis reaction was meant to be at the start of q3 not the end. It happened when they asked him to move over.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2007 08:48PM by marcl.

@ Daniel, sorry mate, there are better videos but they keep getting taken down off youtube (understandably).

Hamilton was given orders to let Alonso pass him at the start of Q3 (when they were waiting at the end of the pitlane waiting for the session to start, Lewis was 1st, Alonso was 2nd and Kimi was 3rd). the team wanted Lewis to let Alonso go into the lead. Lewis drove away and he felt that if he slowed to let Alonso pass, Kimi would also pass him, meaning he (Lewis) would have to slow to make a gap to Kimi so he could run in clean air, which would lose him precious time in the session. Lewis felt that Alonso wasn't close enough to him, so didn't think it was reasonable for him to slow and let him through. he apparently disobeyed a direct request from Ron Dennis to let Alonso through.

then when it came to the final couple of minutes, Alonso pitted first of the 2 McLarens for his final set of new tyres and final quick run. Hamilton knew Alonso was getting his tyres changed so was slow in the pitlane so he wouldn't reach the pitbox too early so wouldn't have to sit and wait for a long time. with about 1min 48 seconds left, Alonso had his tyres changed and was released (the lollypop was raised). for whatever reason, he waited an extra 11 seconds before leaving the pitbox. Alonso crossed the line with just 2 or 3 seconds of the session left, meaning he could do a final lap (which was his pole lap).

Hamilton, because of the delay in the pits where Alonso just stayed there, didn't reach the line before the session ended, so couldn't do a final lap which he was supposed to do.

Alonso says his engineer told him to stay there, counting down the seconds on the radio before telling him to go, apparently in an attempt to join the track in clear air.

speculation is that Alonso decided to stay there by his own decision, or with the help of his trainer (the guy on the pitwall who is highlighted in the above video i posted), in an attempt to "pay back" Lewis for not letting him pass him at the start of the session like he was requested.

the bone of contention is that if he was supposed to stay there, the lollypop man would not raise the lollypop, he would have been told to keep it down until the engineer counted down 10 seconds (or however many seconds was required to get him into clear air), and then told him to raise the lollypop to release Alonso, which is what happened earlier in the qualli session whenthe lollypop stayed down until it was the right moment for Alonso to be released from the pitbox.

Ron is sort of blaming both drivers, Lewis is blaming Alonso for holding him up and staying in the pitbox unnecessarilly, and Alonso is blaming Lewis for not following orders from his boss.

make of it what you will.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Hows this for a conspiracy theory?
Ron, annoyed that Hamilton deliberately disobeyed him in qualifying, tells Fernando's engineer to communicate to Fernando to wait 10 seconds after the lollipop goes up. Reason? Ron knows the worst Lewis is gonna finish in qualifying in 2nd, therefore he'll teach LH who's boss by not letting him get a final lap in. "Don't ever f***ing do that to me again Ron!" wasn't it? :P :P

This i probably the best video there is, the only problem is that is from a spain network so is in spanish, but for whoever is interested...





in my opinion, Alonso blocking Hamilton and Hamilton not taking team orders are internal matters and should be settled internally.., what disturbs me is that after qualy ended Dennis was furious at Alonso, obviously, images speak for themnselves and you can see that he took Fernando's trainer, and then he went to Fernando.. why? i still don't get it, cuz he had both cars in a 1-2, but it seemed that he was furious at Alonso for the maneuver, and the fact that he took 1st and Lewis 2nd, Hamilton not taking team orders didn't corncerned him at the beginig only afterwards, probably after he realize that Alonso noticed that at the begining they where angry at him and not Hamilton

i feel sorry for Alonso and everything, it is pretty obvious how he is not their favourite, did anybody notice how the mechanics celebrate that 1-2?? and they probably had no idea what was going on.. but i've seen how they celebrate Hamilton on pole

I think Hamilton did wrong after the incident, fisrt by doing what he did to Dennis and then accusing them against the FIA "i don't buy that story that he didn't", and that explains why Dennis and Haugh were furious at him afterwards, not only he betrayed them but cost them precious constructor points

i just hope all of this puts them both on a REAL equal status, and that they stop sharing telemetry and setup information to see who is whom for REAL

Why is Michael Stipe talking in Spanish?

@ Elemental, yes, maybe Lewis thought it was Ron behind Alonso's delay (to teach Lewis who's boss), therefore leading to the "don't f-ing do that to me again!" outburst towards Ron over the radio as he returned to the pits?

@ Slash, i've said this before a few times, but i don't agree that it was an internal matter so shouldn't be dealt with by the stewards. what's to stop every driver trying to do that sort of thing to his teammate in every qualli session in the future?

if they're gonna check and penalise people for being in someone's way on-track during the following driver's hot-lap, then they can't turn a blind eye just because the people involved drive for the same team, can they?

holding someone up like that is simply unfair, and exactly the same as what Fisichella did to Yamamoto in the final turn during Sakon's flying lap while Fisi was warming up for his own hot-lap.

if they took no action at Hungary, then at the next race Massa or Kimi might do that to each other, as well as Lewis doing it to Alonso, and Heidfeld doing it to Kubica etc. etc. is that what you want to see, people just sitting in the pitbox stopping their teammate from doing a qualli lap? i don't.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

what we really need is radio talk leadin upto the Q3 pitstops. i also dont get why they are circling this man. how is alonso supposed to see him anyway. he is surrounded by pitcrew. also this physio is standing way behind alonso's line of sight. its not possible to look so far back over the cockpit sidewalls.

but anyway his (alonso) excuse at the end was also lame and not making much sense. after qualifying, lewis was interviewed in the paddock and he said he was shocked at how he was held up. he said he has never seen this kind of delay in qualifying so far. alonso was also interviewed at the same time, and was told about lewis' reply. alonso then said, sheepishly, "well it happens, its happened to me once before". and thats it, no explanation. he was simply trying to cover up some internal issue that was decided upon the senior management due to whatever reason. therefore it is very understandable for him to be upset to get this penalty and have his own championship chances ruined. lets not forget his switch from michelin whole career to bridgestone cannot be easy, and also having to learn whole new chassis, this can account for some of his uncompetitiveness next to lewis in beginning of year. and now that he is finally settle in, he is having his challenge thwarted by things like this. so ofcourse any guy would be disgruntled, and he has made no bones about this even through his renault days. whereas it is just shocking how lewis has thrown all his toys out of pram over one little thing like this, which didnt go his way. like i said he suddenly thinks he is the king of the sport, has multiple championships under his belt, and can tell his team what to do. rather than other way around.

I suppose I have a rather simplistic view of the incidents in question, but I feel Alonso made a very valid point in the original story I posted. To wit - "We went to complain about ourselves. We were one and two in qualifying but it was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1."

So with an all McLaren front row, it becomes an ego issue rather than a question of Hamilton losing anything substantive. He couldn't stand the thought of losing the pole position and submitting to Ron by allowing Fernando on the pole. So he ignores direct team orders, curses out his patron over the radio for all team members to hear, then seeks out the stewards to complain to make sure he makes his point.

At the least it's conduct detrimental to the team, at the worst a personal betrayal of the man responsible for getting him into F1 in the first place, and a shocking display of egomaniacal behavior.

He deserves a public dressing down in my opinion, and if Hamilton was truly "sorry" he should have gone public with an apology to Ron Dennis and the entire McLaren team...



"There are some pikeys there at Turn 10 putting tarmac down - what do you think of that?" - Martin Brundle

i think Lewis had a valid point in that he has to look after his own interests too, and isn't necessarily there to just help Alonso, despite what Alonso may think or want from the team.

Alonso struggled a bit in the first few races, while Lewis comparatively has been on the ball throughout the season so far, so he knows that this is his best chance at a championship while Alonso is relatively uncomfortable still.

he's amazed he's even in this position, winning races and running right at the front, so to be in with a genuine shout at the title in his first season is mind boggling. which one of use would back down and think "nevermind, i'll have a go at the title next year", if put in Lewis' shoes right now?

of course, he owes everything he has to Ron and Martin W, but that doesn't mean he has to be spineless and just roll over if he feels what he's being asked to do is unreasonable.

cursing at Ron was a step too far maybe, but i don't blame him for not wanting to give up his own golden opportunity to help the cause of his teammate. he might have still been 2nd even if he'd got his final lap in, but that would have effectively meant losing the race to Alonso, as whoever has pole at Hungary is almost 100% gonna win the race.

i think both drivers were out of order, Lewis disobeyed teamorders and Alonso pulled a stunt to pay him back, they both obviously thought their actions were necessary at the time.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Lewis did say sorry to the team and ron in public on ITV

Apparently it was his patron who was doing all of the swearing during the exchange.

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Thanks for the clip Slash, very interesting (fortunately i understand Spanish).

"Why is Michael Stipe talking in Spanish?"

I thought it was Andre Agassi!

having been on holiday and just watched the replay theres no way alonso can see his personal trainer hes standing too far back. lewis is in the wrong here imo he moaned about the team in press conference he's sworn at his team boss and yet mclaren still give him the annoying media protection. and either alonso was at fault or lewis was. why the team lost constructors points is beyond me, that implicates the team.