European Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Yeah, that too.

How many laps was the saftey car out for.

Seeing how lewis was a lap behind that means the field went past him once therefore the car was put back on during the lap that does not count if u know what i mean.

remember when a red flag is shown its counted from the lap before.

tbh I can not remember when the car was put back on. It was counted as a dangerous place as its the run off area for the main str8, therefore the car would have to be moved.

As I said before i did think it was illegal but when u look into it all it was not. Depends who u read the rules.

It was illegal marc, i don't see where in the rules that it was ok to do what he did, in the end he got away with it.

I know what u mean but I am just saying he got away with it as they said his car was in a dangerous position.

He really should have got out the car but he did not he stayed in there with the engine on so when they went to move the car out the way like they did with the other cars they simply put it back on the track and not the truck.

Its then up to the race stewards to black flag him but they did not. It was dangerous as a car could have hit him and hurt him.

But the rules do state a car can be moved if its in a dangerous position and it was and as he could carry on they allowed it. It was the same with MS even though he just had 2 wheels off track he could rejoin as it was in a dangerous place but he still had out side help wether it be a crain or people.

If lewis had stalled the car and they pushed started him then it he would not not be allowed to carry on.

As i said its covered here "If the driver is not able to move the car out of the potentially
dangerous position, it is the duty of the marshals or other officials to help." and as the car was still running he could carry on.

I am not saying u are not right and I am not saying i am right its just there are ways of using this rule to your benefit and he did.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2007 03:26PM by marcl.

the rules thmselves don't make sense, IMO.

they say you can get help if the car is in a "dangerous place", but if it's a dangerous place, surely the best thing to do is to tell the driver to get out of the car as fast as he can, so no marshalls have to hang around trying to push the car back onto the track?

but if the car goes off in a "safe" place, only then should marshalls push the car back onto the track, because they won't be in direct danger of another car going off and hitting them.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Lewis was clever, but at the same time put himself at big risk.

Btw, Alonso 2004 Monza

If anyone remembers what I mean, they will know why ive mentioned it.

And thats what annoys me, one weekend it can happen, the next the FIA will apply different logic to it.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Exactly, Fonzo got no help at all at Ferrari's back yard but Lewis who happens to have a famous German brand engine in the back got more help than he was entitled to. That's the FIA for you.

What made it worse was, following 6cars into the gravel what stopped another 6 doing the same and hitting the crane??

Imo Lewis put marshals in danger aswell as himself. I thought his will to continue was good, and clever thinking, quick thinking, but at the risk of others

Look...

[f1.gpupdate.net]

What would have happen if an f1 car goes out of control and into that JCB teleporter?!

edit - and yup the fact that alonso got no help disgusted me considering MS did the year before at nurburgring, and was in hardly a dangerous place. Alonso was in more of a dangerous place lol!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2007 06:58PM by chet.

I don't think you can blame anyone other than the marshals for what the marshals did. They don't have to respond to drivers crying "oooh, come and save me!", they only go out into areas when they're either told to, or at their own discretion. They're under absolutely no obligation to wander out into the gravel traps to help stricken cars if they deem it too dangerous.

Frankly, I thought the marshals were stupid to go to help any of the drivers when some cars were still racing around, and to put 2 tractors out there was simply idiotic.

Yes that's true, you can see just how dangerous being a marshall can be, someone could have got seriously hurt in that melee. But at the end of the day the FIA did not enforce their own rules and that's wrong.

That thing about Lewis is weird, like many other things. He gets away at starts, waving a bit too much, he is alowed to race after a frontal impact at about 150km/h, he gets lifted and craned from a DNF back to race and nobody from the officials says anything..

did anybody see this

[www.dailymotion.com]

==============================

thanks for that video, that's the incident we discussed in the first couple of pages of this thread, but hadn't seen.

someone said Alonso took that route to avoid Massa because he would have crashed into him, but i think he knew what he was doing, he felt he was being blocked so planned to take the shortcut, then block Massa into the last turn, then overtake him into turn 1.

and Schumacher was in a dangerous place at this race in 2003, he was half on the track in the Dunlop curve, any one could have gone wide and hit him.

Alonso was sort of out of the way at Monza '04, not really in the line of fire from other cars.

but again, i think the rule is wrong. Schumacher should have been told to retire, because marshalls coming to help him would have been in dager, whereas Alonso should have been helped because the marshalls would have been relatively safe if they helped him.

anyone else see the weirdness of the rule, how marshalls are allowed to help cars in a dangerous place,putting themselves in more danger, yet they don't have to help cars in "safe" places, when there'd be no additional danger to them?

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2007 12:01AM by Muks_C.

The race was under safety car conditions when Lewis got a lift back to the circuit, hence the reason all the other cars were being cleared at the same time. To say it was wrong that Hamilton did this is rather silly, the cars were round the other side of the track at this point and so there was not much danger for the marshalls. In fact even less danger than when their clearing a car under race conditions. He used his brains and kept himself in the race.

There must be some kind of instruction sent from Charlie Whiting, or from some form of race control informing marshalls of when it is safe to clear the cars from the track. Having Hamilton put back on the track so he could drive off was the easiest and most sensible way of dealing with that situation.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2007 11:09PM by FRESCO.

FRESCO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The race was under safety car conditions when
> Lewis got a lift back to the circuit, hence the
> reason all the other cars were being cleared at
> the same time. To say it was wrong that Hamilton
> did this is rather silly, the cars were round the
> other side of the track at this point and so there
> was not much danger for the marshalls. In fact
> even less danger than when their clearing a car
> under race conditions. He used his brains and kept
> himself in the race.

That's not strictly true, as the very tractor which rescued Hamilton was hit by Liuzzi, and there were marshals on the scene at that point too.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FRESCO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The race was under safety car conditions when
> > Lewis got a lift back to the circuit, hence the
> > reason all the other cars were being cleared at
> > the same time. To say it was wrong that
> Hamilton
> > did this is rather silly, the cars were round
> the
> > other side of the track at this point and so
> there
> > was not much danger for the marshalls. In fact
> > even less danger than when their clearing a car
> > under race conditions. He used his brains and
> kept
> > himself in the race.
>
> That's not strictly true, as the very tractor
> which rescued Hamilton was hit by Liuzzi, and
> there were marshals on the scene at that point
> too.


thats liuzzis fault for not following rules, ie slow down under yellow flag, anyone who went off under the yellow flag and hit a marshall would have been drivers fault not marshalls, so is irellevent to this. lewis did everything legal apart from the crane part, the marshalls are supposed to push him back onto track, but with a crane its illegal, although under safety car or red flag could argue a loophole. in the end he got no points so who cares, f he did then there might have been protests.

There would have been protests. Besides how do you know that Liuzzi didn't slow down? The conditions were terrible at that point and the inters were totally inadequate at dealing with that amount of rain.

Heidfeld nearly went off and he couldn't have come into the braking zone (when the camera cut to him) doing more than 50mph.

They should scrap inters in my opinion. Now there's only 1 tyre manufacturer inters have benefit. Just stick with wet and dry weather tyres.

Muks_C Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thanks for that video, that's the incident we
> discussed in the first couple of pages of this
> thread, but hadn't seen.
>
> someone said Alonso took that route to avoid Massa
> because he would have crashed into him, but i
> think he knew what he was doing, he felt he was
> being blocked so planned to take the shortcut,
> then block Massa into the last turn, then overtake
> him into turn 1.
>


I don't see nothing wrong, did they have a confrontation about this?, cuz tbh i just see Alonso missing the chicane and then giving the position back to Massa, but close enough so that he can overtake him at T1, was there any complains from the drivers about this?, i don't know anything about this can somebody tell me more...?

Marcl brought the incident to our attention near the bottom of page 3.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael