The Turkish Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

I'm not sure where this reputation of Webber's has come from? He's been involved in more than his fair share of incidents in the past couple of year, but to me it seemed like people just started saying it and others picked up on it. :\

He's a hard charging, tough talking Aussie, but I can't connect him with having a reputation for being an overly hard driver. The only reputation I had of him was that he was capable of an absolutely blinding qualifying lap which his car seemed incapable of, then reverting back to somewhere near what you'd the car's normal speed to be in races. That reputation has been somewhat eroded since Vettel came along (and probably suggests more that Webber's team-mates were weaker at qualifying than he was especially strong and that Vettel is the better qualifier).

I think the reputation that Webber got for qualifying laps was completely unfounded. That was at Williams, when he was producing great laps and then dropping back. Williams acknowledged the main issue of the car was that it overused the tyres which made it brilliant for qualifying, and then terrible for the race. Webber looked even better since he was comfortable out performing Heidfeld, Pizzonia and Rosberg. I don't think he was a particularly good qualifier, but rather was being an outstanding all round racer for a rather meh car.

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He carried that reputation before that though - he was 'renowned' at Jaguar too (Interlagos 2003 I think it was springs prominently to mind).. though he hardly had the best team-mates.

Clearly Rosberg, one of his Williams team-mates, don't exactly class qualifying as a speciality - he was on par with Nakajima in qualifying last year.

Abstraction Wrote:
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> Theoretically speaking, if Webber let Vettel
> through, wouldn't everyone in the F1 world be
> simply calling Webber a pussy and not a racer?
> (considering he was leading the race+championship)

I think this is very important. The fact that Webber let Vettel win the Malaysian GP was a major turning point in the season. This has seemingly spurred Webber on not to make the same mistakes again. In a year when they have the best car, why would Webber make it easy for Vettel again. That would be a major psychological mistake in their intra-team battle. He needed to show that he is not a push-over and that he has a rightful place on top of the championship.



Joe_Satriani Wrote:
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> I think Webber was ok...Vettel was the one
> assuming too much about Webber there. He took a
> risk and paid for it. In the end, biggest winner
> of the race is Webber. He is now clear in the lead
> of the championship even if by few points, and
> Vettel fell way back again. There's a lot of talk
> about racing for the the team lately, but I'm sure
> that deep down, even if Webber is angry about
> losing the race, he'll be pleased that the end
> result puts him on a better position in the
> championship.

In the points standings, yes. But what if Webber can no longer trust his team. Based on the Red Bull reactions, whether it be due to them thinking he is faster, the Austro-German relations, the fact that Vettel is a product of their development program or whatever, they are taking a different view to almost everyone else. There is a lot of BS in the Red Bull press releases - like when Marko said that Vettel was "2 metres ahead of Webber." Most of the F1 press are starting to take the same viewpoint - just read James Allen's or Joe Saward's fascinating analysis of the situations.



DaveEllis Wrote:
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> I think the reputation that Webber got for
> qualifying laps was completely unfounded. That was
> at Williams, when he was producing great laps and
> then dropping back.

As Gav said, I think it came mainly from Jaguar, where he had some great qualifying performances.
2003: 3rd Brazil, 5th Imola, 6th Canada, 3rd Hungary, 6th Japan. 2004: 6th Australia, 2nd Malaysia, 3rd Japan.
Of course his team-mates were fairly poor in this time, so its hard to compare him with them, but I think this gave him his qualifying reputation, as well as continued performances for Williams and Red Bull.

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X (@ed24f1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2010 11:05PM by SchueyFan.

In a shite car, Webber has pulled a string of good results.

In a great car, he has also pulled good results.

Those factors speak more than can be said for a lot of other drivers who have come in straight into a car that can perform out of the box.

We can make good relative comparisons of Webber from this, fitting in the mould of the typical rise-to-the-top style driver.

To compare Webber to Vettel isn't really possible.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

SchueyFan Wrote:
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> DaveEllis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think the reputation that Webber got for
> > qualifying laps was completely unfounded. That
> was
> > at Williams, when he was producing great laps
> and
> > then dropping back.
>
> As Gav said, I think it came mainly from Jaguar,
> where he had some great qualifying performances.
> 2003: 3rd Brazil, 5th Imola, 6th Canada, 3rd
> Hungary, 6th Japan. 2004: 6th Australia, 2nd
> Malaysia, 3rd Japan.
> Of course his team-mates were fairly poor in this
> time, so its hard to compare him with them, but I
> think this gave him his qualifying reputation, as
> well as continued performances for Williams and
> Red Bull.

so following that filosophy, Vettel is not a good qualifier because Webber is proving that he never was?

i'm sorry but i think Webber earned his reputation in his own right... his achievements cannot be overlooked by his teammates... is not like he beated them with 1 tenth difference, he often put the car where it shouldn't have been... like Trulli did in the beggining of the century

RBR is the 4th team he's driving

the way i see it, RBR car is so easy to take to the limit that there's a fine line between driver contribution and setup contribution, whoever has the best will beat the other one.

there's a poll in Formula1.com and it pretty much reflects what our opinions are, is very close between Vettel and Webber on who's to blame, with Vettel leading the poll

Im sorry but i smell a rat inside the Red Bull camp.

Vettel pitted on Lap 14 followed by Webber and Hamilton.

They stayed that way with a 2-3 second gap between the two Red Bulls and the two Mclarens until the Lap 41 incident with no one even looking like passing anyone.

So considering the 4 cars ran together for that period having pitted together, with Vettel pitting BEFORE Webber, why suddenly is Webber struggling with fuel problems?

Similar thing with the Mclarens. Button challenges Hamilton then ALL OF A SUDDEN, fuel problems, back off.

Crap.

This is what happened.

Red Bull know that Vettel is the future for them and Mark isnt. It makes marketing sense for Vettel to win the championship, it would be wise in Red Bulls eyes to keep Vettel happy so he doesnt rack off to another team, HE IS THEIR FUTURE. So lets tell Mark he has fuel problems even though he pitted AFTER Vettel and they all ran together for 27 laps where fuel consumption should be similar.

And i think Mark has realised for the first time that this is the case, it showed on his face in the post race press conference, and has been confirmed by Red Bulls comments in the aftermath despite all the professionals in the sport, including Hamilton who had the best view, claiming it was Vettels fault.

Similar thing with Mclaren although i think their "fuel problems" was more borne out of seeing what happened to the Red Bulls than out of driver favouritism.

Now the thing i find interesting is that a few races ago there was an agreement between the Red Bull drivers that after the last pitstop the lead driver wouldnt be pressured by the second driver. Everything was running fine and dandy until Marks sudden "fuel problem". Hamilton wasnt catching Vettel, they had been running in that order with the same gap for 27 laps!

Sorry Mark, but i think your championship chances have just been revealed in this race.

Slasher Wrote:
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> So lets tell Mark he has fuel problems even
> though he pitted AFTER Vettel and they all
> ran together for 27 laps where fuel
> consumption should be similar.

I agree with most of your post, but there are two possible problems with this - at least based on the information that has been revealed to the public.
1) Vettel apparently saved his fuel before the first stop
2) The fuel message apparently came up on the dashboard, it wasn't a radio message.
Of course this might not be correct, especially the 2nd point, as Red Bull wouldn't reveal otherwise.


Slash Wrote:
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> there's a poll in Formula1.com and it pretty much
> reflects what our opinions are, is very close
> between Vettel and Webber on who's to blame, with
> Vettel leading the poll

There is something fishy about that poll. The results are so much different to almost every other poll I can find on the matter:

Manipe F1: Vettel 73%, Webber 13% Neither/both 14%
F1 Fanatic: Vettel 74%, Webber 8%, Both 15%, Neither 3% - 3938 votes
James Allen On F1: Vettel 83%, Webber 6%, 50/50 11% - 3157 votes
NobleF1 Twitter: Vettel 79%, Webber 9%, Racing incident 11%
Crash.net: Vettel: 87%, Webber: 13%
GPUpdate: Vettel 66%, Webber: 12%, Both 15%, Neither 7%

Furthermore, I still don't think that its anywhere near 50/50 in this thread either.

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X (@ed24f1)

There is something fishy about that poll. The results are so much different to almost every other poll I can find on the matter:

Yeah. Even though I'm about 50/50sih, the F1.com poll surprised me.

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The best explanation is probably that some Vettel fan sites are influencing the voting.

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X (@ed24f1)

Maybe Bernie Ecclestone's F1.com vote is worth a million of ours :P

It really does not matter who turned into who really as far as the World Champion ship goes, you're leading there is a potential danger that you may get taken out, avoid it. It's that simple Vettel was faster, he's racing for the Champion Ship also no bodies backing off but you know that you are slower ..... then back off .Webber did not have to give way but for crying out loud what would you rather 2nd or no where lucky enough it was third.
Other side of the coin, same thing for Vettel why take chances unless you know that it's going to be clean and you wont take your team mate out. Again second is better than no where .............. but and I say but. The final analysis is, that these guys are racers damed if you do damned if you don't. As for the stuards and penalties forget comparisons to other driver incidents, these guys simply apply the rule to who and when they want.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

I think both energy drink drivers have to take the blame. Webber does have a reputation of pushing someone to the limit of the track when they're trying to overtake him, and Vettel, well he's still very young and he really shouldn't have expected Webber to just let him go that easily. There was an obvious speed difference but it wasn't that great, Vettel wasn't really that far ahead than he thought.

Quote
WestPunx
Webber does have a reputation of pushing someone to the limit of the track when they're trying to overtake him

As I said earlier, where's this reputation come from all of a sudden? How many examples of it are actually out there?

It is what people have been saying for a good few years.

At jag he had a number to tangles with other cars, and rbr he has and at williams. He tends to have more offs and crashes with other drivers than most of the top drivers. Even in australia this year look how he was racing with lewis, it was all do or die even when lewis had passed him he just would not give the corner up. Then later in the race crash.

Webber said he wasn't trying to overtake Lewis in Melbourne, he just got caught out.

I just don't recall many actual incidents. To me it seems as though someone has mentioned it in a blog or magazine or something and it has snowballed since then.

Now you mention it Gav, though I too would label Webber as agressive, I can not remember incidents other than Lewis this year.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Brundle's comment [www.crash.net] - i agree with him. And by looking on marko's comment [www.crash.net] , @#$%& him. Theirs cleary a favouritism between vettel and webber. just like what happened on Mclaren in 2007 they both end up losing. Although im not a fan of webber. Go webber, dont let that Overrated Nazi German driver squeeze your reputation. Cleary after seeing vettel's gesture after he retired. He looks a Know nothing @ss hole. And a driver couldn't just give out his position just his advisor told him so. If its the younger MS, he will do harder than that, he would squeeze vettel into inside and push him out of the track.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 04:48PM by RebelWithoutaCause.

gav Wrote:
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> > Webber does have a reputation of pushing someone
> to the limit of the track when they're trying to
> overtake him
>
>
> As I said earlier, where's this reputation come
> from all of a sudden? How many examples of it are
> actually out there?


Kimi in Brazil last year, Massa in Fuji where he pushed him near the wall, Alonso in Spain where he had to overtake in the grass

not all of them neccesarily ended in contact, but he does makes it very hard for whoever wants to jump him.. having said that, nothing forces him to make it easy
but knowing the way he races, you'd know to be carefull when racing him

He races aggressive, like Lewis and Montoya and JV did... He doesnt force a driver to take what little room he gives but if they do its their choice. He is no worse than the bunch I mentioned, all who were hard, but fair racers.

If Webber is unfair, he's the first to admit it.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL