The Turkish Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Slash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gav Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Webber does have a reputation of pushing
> someone
> > to the limit of the track when they're trying
> to
> > overtake him
> >
> >
> > As I said earlier, where's this reputation come
> > from all of a sudden? How many examples of it
> are
> > actually out there?
>
>
> Kimi in Brazil last year, Massa in Fuji where he
> pushed him near the wall, Alonso in Spain where he
> had to overtake in the grass
>
> not all of them neccesarily ended in contact, but
> he does makes it very hard for whoever wants to
> jump him.. having said that, nothing forces him to
> make it easy
> but knowing the way he races, you'd know to be
> carefull when racing him

raikkonen lost his front wing into that fight.

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My GPGSL Career

Lets take it to HD Sebastian





&feature=related
Is it me that 2006 tv overlay is so much better than the current one



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 05:40PM by RebelWithoutaCause.

i've not read most of this thread, so sorry if i'm repeating anyone else's post. i'd say it was 80% Vettel to blame, 20% Mark. Why Should Mark move over or give Vettel any more room than he did give him? Vettel chose to take the left side to go onto the dirty line (he initially jinked right then switched to the left).

Mark's portion of the blame is only that he didn't predict Vettel would move over, and could have moved to the right to ensure there wouldbe no contact. but again, why should he have done that? he was the leader in that fight, so has the right to take his preferred line, and the overtaker has to make the move to get round the guy infront.

Vettel just noobed up in my opinion, thinking Mark would be frightened and move over. why he would think this, i don't know, Mark's no pushover.

and any respect i had for Horner completely evaporated after his comments on it being Mark's fault for not leaving enough room. if it had been Lewis overtaking Mark and the exact same thing had happened, would Horner still have blamed Mark for not leaving enough room to allow Lewis to get past safely? no, he would have blamed Lewis, as he should be blaming Vettel.

and i can't recall the move Vettel allegedly made on Lewis where they almost touched, the one Lewis referred to in his interview.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Lewis was passing Vettel down the straight was alongside and vettel was moving to the right with lewis there, this cause lewis to run wide at the next corner.

Tbh it was not a really bad move but you could say you should not do that with someone along side. I did not really think much of it at the time.

Lewis got slated for weaving when a car was behind, and MS used to get slated for cutting across the front of people at the last sec. But moving when someone is along side you is worse.

You will need to watch a reply of the race as all links are vettel and webber.

[news.bbc.co.uk]

3min 40. Its really not that bad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 11:07PM by marcl.

RebelWithoutaCause Wrote:
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> Go webber, dont let that Overrated Nazi
> German driver squeeze your reputation.

Hey RebelWithoutaClue, the 1950s called - they want their prejudice back. And on a German-hosted forum too...

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 11:06PM by senninho.

Quote
marcl
Lewis got slated for weaving when a car was behind

People weren't happy - not so much because of what he did, but because of the precedent it could cause. I don't think any level-headed people were exactly calling for penalties or the like, just more worried about where it would end.

A closer comparison involving Hamilton would be him running people off track at Monza in 2008.

Muks_C Wrote:
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> Mark's portion of the blame is only that he didn't
> predict Vettel would move over, and could have
> moved to the right to ensure there wouldbe no
> contact. but again, why should he have done that?
> he was the leader in that fight, so has the right
> to take his preferred line, and the overtaker has
> to make the move to get round the guy infront.

Exactly. It was asif Vettel assumed Webber had moved, and at 200mph, assuming a car will move, or has move is dangerous! The accident imo was better than it could have been, it was a dangerous outright stupid move.

> Vettel just noobed up in my opinion, thinking Mark
> would be frightened and move over. why he would
> think this, i don't know, Mark's no pushover.

Again, nicley summed up. In the same posistion as Webber, Lewis, JV, and Montoya would do the same imo. However they might get praised as aggressive, whilst Webber has been given the label dangerous!

> and any respect i had for Horner completely
> evaporated after his comments on it being Mark's
> fault for not leaving enough room. if it had been
> Lewis overtaking Mark and the exact same thing had
> happened, would Horner still have blamed Mark for
> not leaving enough room to allow Lewis to get past
> safely? no, he would have blamed Lewis, as he
> should be blaming Vettel.

Again, fully agree! Though with the point about Lewis, in this case it was two team-mates, and you expect them to give room. However Mark did give room, but only just and a racer thats all he should give be it a team-mate, red car, or silver car? IMO even to a team-mate if Webber gave any more room then he's not racing anymore. When these guys are going 200mph they dont think about team-mates, im sure they treat every car the same, every driver the same, and thats because they are racing drivers. eg, Alonso on Massa in China. Had it been Button/Lewis in front of Alonso, and given the room, Alonso would do the same. Drivers dont see their team-mates as team-mates on track, to them they are simply another guy to pass or prevent being passed by. With Button and Lewis, both drivers would have given enough room, just! Thing is, both drivers gave respect, in this case Vettel did not! And yup, Horner is a prick! RedBull were becoming very popular in the paddock, but after that id be supprised if they had as many fans as before!

Horner=Jean Todt (at Ferrari) = Ron Dennis.

Though I have HUGE respect for Ron (Mika fan :p) and Jean (only now!) they were utter pricks to one driver whilst treating the other like a son.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> And yup, Horner is a prick!

Funny kind of prick. Of the current team bosses, I'd say he's one of the more honest and straight ones.

Regarding the incident itself, the video illustrates how fine the line was between n00bing up and pulling off a good passing move IMO. From the outside, Vettel appears to swerve across quite sharply and outrageously, emphasised by the proximity of the cars to each other; from the onboard camera, you can see him make a clear movement of the steering wheel to the right, but it's still a relatively small one, and all he does is steer the car towards the piece of track where he'd be braking normally, rather than a sharper jink to the right like you'd expect if he was trying to squeeze Webber or playing silly buggers and intimidating him into backing off.

The more replays I see of it, the more I think it's shades of grey.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2010 04:28AM by EC83.

Personally, I don't care for the whole discussion, this is my stance:

We want close racing and hard fights and this is when collisions happen even among the best drivers…
Personally I have a lot of respect for RBR for letting their drivers race themself and not going for the safe way. I hope they don't change this now.

@#$%& happens, move on…

Website | Blog | Twitter | CTDP: Site Blog Twitter

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Lewis got slated for weaving when a car was
> behind
>
>
> People weren't happy - not so much because of what
> he did, but because of the precedent it could
> cause. I don't think any level-headed people were
> exactly calling for penalties or the like, just
> more worried about where it would end.
>
> A closer comparison involving Hamilton would be
> him running people off track at Monza in 2008.

Could not agree more with you. Which is why I found his comments about vettel a slight OTT. What Vettel done to Lewis was normal racing. Its different when your the one on the outside doing the move as you can see the car your passing moving over. But when your being over taken it would be harder to predict someone is going to move over on you hense why webber could do nothing when vettel moved. Hope that makes sense.

@ EC83,

I do feel Horner is one of the more honest guys in F1 (there's an oxymoron for you!), but I think he's been put in a horribly difficult situation. I doubt he has a clear favourite to win anything, but the guys next to him and above him (Helmut Marko and Mateschitz) have invested a lot of time and money in their development programme or which Vettel is the first star in Formula 1. There will be pressure from those around him, concious or not, on Horner to show it's working. It's Marko who's been laying down the law of who was in the right or wrong, suggesting Webber should have just waved him past - Horner said little at the time that was anything like as strong as what Marko said.

I don't think Vettel was trying to scare Webber or anything. That would be one of the stupidest acts on a racing track I'd have seen, and would have eclipsed everything even Schumacher has done in his career. I just think Webber was in Vettel's blind spot and Vettel had assumed that Webber had moved across the track. I don't think that's much better (it shows a lot of naivety), but I really doubt he was trying to intimidate or get one over on Webber

That all considered... if Vettel needed a clean line and extra space as much as RBR have been making out... well there was a lot of space to the right of Webber. Button made it work. Twice. I don't see why Webber should just wave through one of his championship rivals.

Dahie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, I don't care for the whole discussion,
> this is my stance:
>
> We want close racing and hard fights and this is
> when collisions happen even among the best
> drivers…
> Personally I have a lot of respect for RBR for
> letting their drivers race themself and not going
> for the safe way. I hope they don't change this
> now.
>
> @#$%& happens, move on…


I agree and it's also worth reminding oneself that however professional or experienced F1 drivers are, they're still driving upside down jet planes and making split second decisions, possibly with less than inches to spare.

I think the conspiracy theories are getting very ripe in this thread. There seems to be little doubt that Dr. Marko favours Vettel. But what most people don't seem to understand, that if anything, Horner is a solid supporter of Mark Webber. They even have a racing team together: MW Arden. I personally doubt you would ever see a Ron Dennis or a Jean Todt co-owning a team with Coulthard, Montoya or Barrichello.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Interesting interview

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raulgullon.com -
Wedding and Motorsports Photography.

Have Michael schumacher stayed at ferrari, he would easily recover from his fading performance.

Raulongo, the only thing interesting about that interview was how well Webber restricted his mouth from speaking his mind. Lot's of eyeballs at the ceiling. Pro Yap.

Rebel, WT...prancing German on your doona?

Just read on Autosport that Webber asked the team to slow Vettel down as his rear tyres were going.

Well that's an interesting development.

That could explain Red Bull's initial reaction (i.e. blaming Webber), because if he had just made such a request, a crash soon after would make it easy to assume Webber was at fault.

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X (@ed24f1)

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do feel Horner is one of the more honest guys in
> F1 (there's an oxymoron for you!), but I think
> he's been put in a horribly difficult situation.

Definitely, possibly the toughest situation any team boss has been in since Ron in 2007. Although, of course, whereas Ron brought that situation on himself, Christian really has just been put in this one IMO, as you say. The biggest test of him so far, and I really hope he'll come through it with flying colours.

Regarding Webber being in Vettel's blind spot - that's exactly the impression I got from watching various replays, and it certainly fits.

> That all considered... if Vettel needed a clean
> line and extra space as much as RBR have been
> making out... well there was a lot of space to the
> right of Webber. Button made it work. Twice. I
> don't see why Webber should just wave through one
> of his championship rivals.

Agreed totally.

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i've been trying to find a good video after the race ended where Webber, Lewis and Jenson are chatting before going to the podium

apparently Jenson asked Webber about the incident and he said "we just clipped tyres a bit" and then Lewis said "no not really, Vettel ram into him"

i don't think Red Bull should go public about this... if anything just close the doors chat with the guys and then come happy saying everything was resolved... going public with stuff like Webber said this we asked him to do that and stuff like that only makes it worse for Mark and them

there's no need for anybody to know all the little internal details about what happened, mainly because nothing and none of them justify Vettel's behaviour.... regardless of who was faster or who was going to loose the battle it was an incident triggered by Vettel's sudden move

as a Mclaren guy said recently.. Vettel had plenty of room on the left to go though.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2010 08:12AM by Slash.