Spanish GP *spoilers*
Posted by Nickv
Can anyone think of an example of someone leading so many laps but still getting lapped, with no mechanical or driver error?
It was incredible how bad the Ferrari was on the hard tyre. Also, reliability problems are creeping in again, with the gearbox failure for Massa and more hydraulics issues for Alonso in practice.
X (@ed24f1)
It was incredible how bad the Ferrari was on the hard tyre. Also, reliability problems are creeping in again, with the gearbox failure for Massa and more hydraulics issues for Alonso in practice.
X (@ed24f1)
the thing is that the whole ferrari team is now build up almost from italians (i mean the leading positions, where todt, brawn rory burn etc. were in the glory days).
Now, i remember schumacher (or someone else i am not sure) said many years ago that only the paint of the car should be made in italy (nice joke btw
). you see how many things go wrong because those people in the leading positions just arent anything special (like newey, whitmarsh brawn etc).
1) no innovative thinking in terms of car design and aerodynamics
2) almost always some shitty strategy (kris dier got fired) or justt pathetic copying of the RBR strategy.
3) reliability is a huge problem (still from testing), but they were lucky that the most mechanical troubles occured during practise.
i dont know. but in my eyes ferrari were never a championship winning team (with the exception of the schumacher todt brawn burn etc. era). at least not in the last 30- 35 years.
Now, i remember schumacher (or someone else i am not sure) said many years ago that only the paint of the car should be made in italy (nice joke btw
). you see how many things go wrong because those people in the leading positions just arent anything special (like newey, whitmarsh brawn etc).1) no innovative thinking in terms of car design and aerodynamics
2) almost always some shitty strategy (kris dier got fired) or justt pathetic copying of the RBR strategy.
3) reliability is a huge problem (still from testing), but they were lucky that the most mechanical troubles occured during practise.
i dont know. but in my eyes ferrari were never a championship winning team (with the exception of the schumacher todt brawn burn etc. era). at least not in the last 30- 35 years.
Its crazy, if you look back at testing then compare with the season, Ferrari have sunk so low. Their lack of success is IMO down to RedBull being so awesome and only having one top driver, with the other offering top performances on and off.
Take RedBull away, and this, and last season would have been classic Mclaren v's Ferrari seasons. Last year with Ferrari on top, this year Mclaren it seems.
I think we learnt last year, even without Todt, Brawn and Schumacher, you should never underestimate them. Alonso was a Petrov away from being a 3 time champ!
IMO the first thing Ferrari need to do is get rid of Massa or at least find a way to give him some confidence in the car/with these tyres. It's clear he isnt performing as well as his talent allows for whatever reason. Secondly, I would not change a thing inside the team. They produced a winning car last season, almost title winning. Why change it? The problem isnt the team, the problem is that RedBull are simply too good. And Mclarens performances in 2010 and 2011 back that up.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Take RedBull away, and this, and last season would have been classic Mclaren v's Ferrari seasons. Last year with Ferrari on top, this year Mclaren it seems.
I think we learnt last year, even without Todt, Brawn and Schumacher, you should never underestimate them. Alonso was a Petrov away from being a 3 time champ!
IMO the first thing Ferrari need to do is get rid of Massa or at least find a way to give him some confidence in the car/with these tyres. It's clear he isnt performing as well as his talent allows for whatever reason. Secondly, I would not change a thing inside the team. They produced a winning car last season, almost title winning. Why change it? The problem isnt the team, the problem is that RedBull are simply too good. And Mclarens performances in 2010 and 2011 back that up.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Alonso just needs a more consistent wingman, who on an off day isn't so much OFF, but is thereabouts, in the top 6.
Rubens was great at that, his off days he still could mix it up a bit.
Massa has sadly lost his edge, or isn't able to show his full potential as consistently in this car.
They need someone fresh I think, from the Massa mould, maybe one of the rookies once they have a few years under their belt - the Hulk/Kobayashi/Di Resta/Petrov/Perez.
Heck, why not give Heikki a call for a year or two, and train one of the above for the main slot.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Rubens was great at that, his off days he still could mix it up a bit.
Massa has sadly lost his edge, or isn't able to show his full potential as consistently in this car.
They need someone fresh I think, from the Massa mould, maybe one of the rookies once they have a few years under their belt - the Hulk/Kobayashi/Di Resta/Petrov/Perez.
Heck, why not give Heikki a call for a year or two, and train one of the above for the main slot.
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> yes. you are correct, chet. but you cant just say
> ferrari are very good if you put RBR out of the
> equation. red bull is there, and red bull are
> lappin a ferrari in only 46 laps of clean air in
> spain, and red bull are 3 seconds faster on the
> harder tyre as well, and mclaren too. sorry, but
> in my view alonso is just sooo overdriving that
> car, i mean, he is probably going from .5 to 1
> second faster.
Very true, and a valid point, I think what I was trying to get across was that for the two and a half seasons, in terms of racecar performance, RedBull have been more than a step above the rest. Brawn were close, only when they had the best car. Then occasionally Mclaren and Ferrari, but consistently RedBull have been top, and generally by more than a small amount. I think its alot to ask from any team to try and consistently challenge RedBull (and Vettel!) right now.
> and last year ferrari were fast, yes: at bahrain
> and from hockenheim onwards, because thesy copied
> again that moveable front wing from who ? red bull
> of course.
I would say this happens in F1 all the time. The reason Mclaren started so well in Australia was because they copied the RedBull exhaust package. Fact is, they have the best car and every team on the grid will be copying them.
> I agree with you that they are fast... from time
> to time (1/3 from the last season or a little bit
> more), but they are inconsistent, the car is
> unreliable at practise ot race, and they are not
> innovative at all. those were my 3 points.
Ive not really followed the team too closely. Ive noticed two reliability issues? Have there been any more? That is what is surprising given how many fault free miles they ran in testing.
As Alonso says, they are using the softer range of the tyres for the next few races which are more competitive for the team, and as Horner said the other day, it appears the season could sway from who is quickest behind RedBull between Ferrari and Mclaren. I'd be very surprised if at Monaco Ferrari are not at least as quick as Mclaren, if not quicker.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes. you are correct, chet. but you cant just say
> ferrari are very good if you put RBR out of the
> equation. red bull is there, and red bull are
> lappin a ferrari in only 46 laps of clean air in
> spain, and red bull are 3 seconds faster on the
> harder tyre as well, and mclaren too. sorry, but
> in my view alonso is just sooo overdriving that
> car, i mean, he is probably going from .5 to 1
> second faster.
Very true, and a valid point, I think what I was trying to get across was that for the two and a half seasons, in terms of racecar performance, RedBull have been more than a step above the rest. Brawn were close, only when they had the best car. Then occasionally Mclaren and Ferrari, but consistently RedBull have been top, and generally by more than a small amount. I think its alot to ask from any team to try and consistently challenge RedBull (and Vettel!) right now.
> and last year ferrari were fast, yes: at bahrain
> and from hockenheim onwards, because thesy copied
> again that moveable front wing from who ? red bull
> of course.
I would say this happens in F1 all the time. The reason Mclaren started so well in Australia was because they copied the RedBull exhaust package. Fact is, they have the best car and every team on the grid will be copying them.
> I agree with you that they are fast... from time
> to time (1/3 from the last season or a little bit
> more), but they are inconsistent, the car is
> unreliable at practise ot race, and they are not
> innovative at all. those were my 3 points.
Ive not really followed the team too closely. Ive noticed two reliability issues? Have there been any more? That is what is surprising given how many fault free miles they ran in testing.
As Alonso says, they are using the softer range of the tyres for the next few races which are more competitive for the team, and as Horner said the other day, it appears the season could sway from who is quickest behind RedBull between Ferrari and Mclaren. I'd be very surprised if at Monaco Ferrari are not at least as quick as Mclaren, if not quicker.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
danm Wrote:
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> Heck, why not give Heikki a call for a year or
> two, and train one of the above for the main slot.
Because McLaren did that and he sunk without a trace, he'd be as far off the pace alongside Alonso as he was with Hamilton, if not more so because Alonso plays a tonne more mind games.
No Hekki is better off where he is, where he looks good as a over performing underdog. At McLaren he was a under performing lapdog, and he'd be just as bad at Ferrari.
Currently... there isn't really any top-line driver available to replace Massa, Kubica was a possibility but that's a long shot now. Rosberg would be a maybe, but he'd probably see it simply jumping from one car not winning races to another car not winning races, he missed trick by not going to McLaren when he had his chance.
Plus Ferrari are generally not a team to develop a driver in F1, they let other teams do that for them.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heck, why not give Heikki a call for a year or
> two, and train one of the above for the main slot.
Because McLaren did that and he sunk without a trace, he'd be as far off the pace alongside Alonso as he was with Hamilton, if not more so because Alonso plays a tonne more mind games.
No Hekki is better off where he is, where he looks good as a over performing underdog. At McLaren he was a under performing lapdog, and he'd be just as bad at Ferrari.
Currently... there isn't really any top-line driver available to replace Massa, Kubica was a possibility but that's a long shot now. Rosberg would be a maybe, but he'd probably see it simply jumping from one car not winning races to another car not winning races, he missed trick by not going to McLaren when he had his chance.
Plus Ferrari are generally not a team to develop a driver in F1, they let other teams do that for them.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Secondly, I would not change
> a thing inside the team. They produced a winning
> car last season, almost title winning. Why change
> it? The problem isnt the team, the problem is that
> RedBull are simply too good. And Mclarens
> performances in 2010 and 2011 back that up.
Yes, and the fear of getting fired isn't going to promote innovative design, or proactive strategies.
Hopefully they can convince Rory Byrne to come on for a year or two to steady the ship. He's still working as a consultant for the road-car division, so it isn't impossible.
gav Wrote:
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> You say that, but at how many GPs did they
> actually have a winning car? What kept Alonso in
> the title hunt was his sheer consistency and the
> pace with which it was delivered.
>
> I'd say it was only Hockenheim where they had the
> fastest car, and ironically it was the one race
> where Massa had the upper hand on him.
I'd say Monza as well, probably.
X (@ed24f1)
-------------------------------------------------------
> Secondly, I would not change
> a thing inside the team. They produced a winning
> car last season, almost title winning. Why change
> it? The problem isnt the team, the problem is that
> RedBull are simply too good. And Mclarens
> performances in 2010 and 2011 back that up.
Yes, and the fear of getting fired isn't going to promote innovative design, or proactive strategies.
Hopefully they can convince Rory Byrne to come on for a year or two to steady the ship. He's still working as a consultant for the road-car division, so it isn't impossible.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You say that, but at how many GPs did they
> actually have a winning car? What kept Alonso in
> the title hunt was his sheer consistency and the
> pace with which it was delivered.
>
> I'd say it was only Hockenheim where they had the
> fastest car, and ironically it was the one race
> where Massa had the upper hand on him.
I'd say Monza as well, probably.
X (@ed24f1)
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