Monza GP *****Spoilers*****

this is the incident Brundle referred to when he said someone in the F BMW race launched backwards off the new higher kerbs at Monza:

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Well that sh*ts on any theorys saying Brawn have dropped back because of a lack of funding or any bs about favouring anyone. Today Brawn did exactly what RedBull should have, and could have done in Spa. Sums up Brawn's season well, they have made the most of any opportunities 100% of the time, RedBull and their drivers have not. With Brawn, if Jenson wasnt there, Rubens was. Hungary being the exception. With RedBull both seem either to ahve a good weekend or both have a shite one.

Supprised Rubens had it over Jenson today. Yesterday for much of the time Button did look the strongest. Only found the weights out on the pre-race show, so a nice supprise there !

Rubens destroyed Jenson on the in and out laps it looked. Perfect drive, from both really, just Rubens had that little bit more! This was important for Jenson though, I was amazed when I realized Turkey was his last podium!!! Once again what is becoming a norm, his first lap overtakes. Great great great move on Heikki!!!

Makes for an interesting end! RedBull are apparently bringing a sizeable upgrade to Singapore, but I imagine most teams will do for the final leg!

This race IMO sealed the fate for Heikki, AND Rubens. Rubens at Brawn for another year has to be now. There is no reason to replace him, and atm he is driving the best on the grid IMO. Heikki however, though collected points may aswell waved half the grid through. Poor race, and once again he's proved he he has not got what it takes to win in F1.

Abit disapointed for Lewis with the crash, but at the same time, agree with Martin/Eddie. Not many drivers at the end of race, in that posistion would push like that IMO. Most would maybe stick with the 3rd and be happy. The guy's will be disapointed but at the same time, they are not in a posistion in the championship that really effects things. Okay fighting for 3rd, but when your not winning whats 3rd and 4th? The difference in prize money would be insignificant to the team of that size, and I know they want to beat Ferrari all the time, but they'd like to beat Ferrari to the win, not to 3rd. Disapointed but in the end I dont think it matters to many of them! Except of course when they have to re-build it ! I think maybe Mercedes would have been more pleased with the result, an all Mercedes podium, a first??

Also, today I was swapping between 5live and normal comm, 5live, alot more flowing was good, but brundle and legard today were pretty good IMO. An impovment from previous races. Also, many people will not use live-timing, and I do think there is a lack of imformation on gaps from both teams, and FOM. I dont want to see the order and no. of stops all the time, I want see numbers, times, gaps!

edit - good race for strategy, bad for on track action bar the first few laps.

edit again, veyr wrong about Lewis shooting off into the distance never to be seen again!!Pah nevermind!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2009 05:41PM by chet.

chet Wrote:
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> RedBull are
> apparently bringing a sizeable upgrade to
> Singapore, but I imagine most teams will do for
> the final leg!

I hope so, I can't recall Red Bull making any major changes at all for a long time now!

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X (@ed24f1)

Senna to Macca next year speculation coming soon I can see... Publicity.

Anyways, regarding Kovalainen still, did they release info on something that may've affected his Mclaren in the first laps? He dropped to 8th in two if not mistkaen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2009 05:51PM by Rodrigo007.

chet schreef:
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> Well that sh*ts on any theorys saying Brawn have
> dropped back because of a lack of funding

You talkin' 'bout me? :P

chet Wrote:
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> Well that sh*ts on any theorys saying Brawn have
> dropped back because of a lack of funding or any
> bs about favouring anyone.

I resent that the arguments I have put forward, which in my view can be justified, and I've provided evidence to support, is put down as mere bullshit. You don't have to agree with them*, and I've no problem with that, especially as you put forward your own justifiable evidence to counter it, but don't dismiss mine as a load of @#$%& just because they are negative theories about an aspect of your dream team that you don't like.

And no, just because this is the first race where Rubens has finished ahead after being in front of Button, where previously questionable incidents or strategy has had Button leapfrog him in the end, doesn't eradicate what happened earlier in the season. Perhaps they just feel confident enough that they've got both championships in their hands now**. It felt before Spa that it would be a straight fight between the 2 of them now, so it hardly blows the theory out of the water.


* and for the record, I've never actually said that I fully believe them myself - I've just put forward the theory that there have been some rather timely, big coincidences - enough to question certain decisions... but I thought you'd asked to leave this behind? Apparently not...



** and they certainly ought to. RBR failed to take advantage of their chances, and with the unlucky engine failures (yeah, probably some other installation issue too, but still unlucky), their chances have gone now. It's a straight fight between Button and Rubens, and Brawn have an almost unassailable lead in the constructors too, as they'd almost have to fail to finish in every race (assuming RBR don't get top 3 results for both cars in every remaining race... which isn't going to happen).

Brawn have been better this year and deserve the team title. I'm undecided on the drivers. Button was mighty earlier this year, while Rubens was scrappy... but Rubens is still in the title hunt by scrapping away while Button has floundered in midfield for the same amount of time [as he was winning earlier]. It's a bit like last year - in some ways, neither contender really deserves the title. You have to think that if someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi had been in that car, they'd have made mincemeat of both.

any got a picture or link for fisi's ferrari helmet? no clear pics floating in the web

gav Wrote:
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> And no, just because this is the first race where
> Rubens has finished ahead after being in front of
> Button, where previously questionable incidents or
> strategy has had Button leapfrog him in the end,
> doesn't eradicate what happened earlier in the
> season.

That sums up the gist of the post I was just about to make. Rubens did finish ahead of JB when they'd been racing closely for the first time this season, but one swallow doesn't make a summer, and it doesn't change the fact that in races like Barcelona and - most obviously - Nurburgring, strange and inexplicable coincidences happened which did disadvantage Rubens, to the extent that "favouring" claims cannot just be dismissed as BS.

Personally, in spite of what Ross said after the race, I have concerns that similar things could happen in the remaining races if Rubens shows signs of actually stealing this title from Jenson.

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EC83 Wrote:
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> Personally, in spite of what Ross said after the
> race, I have concerns that similar things could
> happen in the remaining races if Rubens shows
> signs of actually stealing this title from Jenson.

Nah, I don't think Brawn favoured Button in-particular, but if any injustice did happen earlier in the year, then it was because they feared a RBR onslaught and obviously felt that they had to back 1 driver more than the other - and Button had the clear upper hand in points at the time.

Now that Button is a full 26 points clear of Vettel (who's car is not looking to be quick in the final 4 races), I can't see any 'games' from here on. It should be a clear battle between Button and Rubens.

[getting-in-the-way]tbh, at least to me, it wasn't chet's intention to re-open this can of worms, it looked like a general observation directed at nobody in particular, but anyway[/getting-in-the-way]

GO RUBENS! yeah, good stuff, good stuff. well done to Brawn. I would really like if he won the WDC, he truly deserves it, but i share EC83's concerns: both the WDC and WCC going to the UK must be a recurring thought on Ross' mind, and I wonder how far he'd go to raise his chances. So far he's played fair, it seems, or atleast fair enough to not raise many eyebrows.

With or without interference, JB looks pretty comfortable to win the title, those amazing drives early on are definitely paying off now.

Nick, and Gav I was not directing it at you at all, and had actually forgot we had disagreements on the matters !

I was primarily refering to just general thought about the idea of favouring driver.

You know, today in the first stint when Button closed in on Rubens. The first thing that came to my head was Brawn slowing Rubens nearer the stop to make it seem he lost out in the stops. I wont lie, i 100% believed it would happen, and then I could accept it would be the case and reject all my arguments.

Brawn had the chances to do such a thing/slow Rubens down. If it was going to happen, I thought here where RedBull were down and at such a crucial point in the WDC. Thats all i will say, but I do apologize, it was not aimed at anyone, and was a generalisation (sp?) of what many believe(d).

As for this however,

You have to think that if someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi had been in that car, they'd have made mincemeat of both.

Based on what?

Alonso, Lewis and Kimi ALL have shown that a full seasons charge is not possible. Only Schumacher of recent times I remember has really put a full season together, and even Ross would disagree on that!

Lewis in 07 and 08 looked like he wanted to lose the title along with Massa

Alonso in 07 made as many mistakes as I remember him doing in a season and no doubt about cracked under pressure against Lewis.

Kimi is not the most consistant driver in the world and some would agree lucked into the 07 title (karma, whilst being unlucky not to be a 3 time champ possibly )

All drivers ahve had their chances. All 3 have titles.

Button's got his chance and made the most of it whilst he knew he could, and baring car problems he's had two really poor races, and now finally a good one. Button has scored in every gp except Spa. Ive never liked the argument of Alonso/Lewis in the car would be better because its useless, agreed? I could use the same argument in 07 and 08. Button may not have made the same mistakes other drivers have made in say a Mclaren or Ferrari. This kind of argument will go on forever, and I guess has done in F1. Today, although I dont fault it, Lewis made an error today whilst in a good posistion, errors are something Button does not do often. He has won the most races, scored the most points and amde the least errors and as a reward he is leading.

Is it what it is. To say one driver would do better than another is argument with no end, and really no begining!! It is something however you quite easily open a bottle of wine too and debate it over a long while!!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> Based on what?

Based on Rubens having a relatively crap 1st third of the season and Button a relatively crap 2nd third.

Yes, we know it's not possible to be at 100% in every race, but I think the 3 mentioned (certainly Alonso and Lewis, but I think Kimi raises his game when he has a sniff too, perhaps supported by his run of podiums) would be better than both Rubens earlier in the season and coped better under difficult conditions than Button in the past 5 or 6 races. And I feel all 3 would have been faster than both drivers throughout the season too.

While the Brawn drivers are now miles ahead of the competition, I feel that's down to the car primarily (obvious statement in recent F1, I know) and opposition, while both drivers have suffered from a lack of conviction at different points in the season. I personally don't feel that Alonso or Lewis would have allowed that to happen, and I feel Kimi would have stacked up better in that car too.

I agree on Alonso's part. He is the best driver about there is no question about it that. His interview on BBC was quite good, and 100% correct. He may not have the raw-speed but like he said he is ALWAYS there.

It's been generally accepted that Button's style has perhaps been one of the main reasons behind Silverstone, Nurburgring and Hungary, but in two of those races he has never been great at, and in Hungary Rubens was just as worse meaning the car was most likley as hopeless as it looked. In Spa he got taken out (or not to those who disagree) but was on for a good result I reckon. He has had two races which have been bad because of him, and him alone and I think that's making it look alot worse than it is. IMO Lewis and Kimi would not be in a better posistion, and in the same circumstances I would bet all money Kimi would be a worse posistion. Alonso is the only driver I reckon who would be doing better, but even still not by alot. I see no evidence for Lewis or Kimi to be in a better posistion. One makes mistakes and the other is inconsistant. Both Buttons major strengths you could argue.

The other thing, Rubens and Button's first stints were amazingly close and thats when you really know how well a driver is doing. A driver never gets 100% out the car, but it will be close, when two drivers are matched so equally it suggests they are getting the maximum out the car. Lewis and Heikki perfect examples of the opposite there.

edit - my point about the closeness of Rubens and Button doesnt just apply to here, but well every race, every year they ahve been together. Besides that too we have Brawn's words. The only judge on performance and he believes on the most part maximum has been achieved.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2009 09:48PM by chet.

can you imagine is Rubens clinches the title by winning at Interlagos?

how sweet would that be, of all his bad luck there!


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

Would be special! he would flood the place with tears!

Just like to add, what are peoples thoughts on Trulli when rejoining about battling Nakajima in the first chicane? Looked pretty bad to me, and though Glock didnt think much of it, the way Trulli rejoined was awful, and directly in Glocks path, so that Glock too avoiding action. Poor driving imo.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

nah, lewis just loss traction on rumble strips.. probably he just too aggresive their to push the gas... and then alot of spin in wheels.

chet Wrote:
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> Just like to add, what are peoples thoughts on
> Trulli when rejoining about battling Nakajima in
> the first chicane? Looked pretty bad to me, and
> though Glock didnt think much of it, the way
> Trulli rejoined was awful, and directly in Glocks
> path, so that Glock too avoiding action. Poor
> driving imo.

Fine here. I'm just pleased someone made an effort to actually take the corner when it had almost been lost! Quite refreshing. Apparently they both enjoyed it that bit of action.

At some point the Brazilian commentator pointed something that personally I haven't noticed yet but it looks indeed true and somewhat funny.

"It seems this year. Kubica's front wings had not passed intactly many times by these initial laps."

Now i want Rubens to win the driver champion more than Jenson

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Rodrigo007 Wrote:
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> At some point the Brazilian commentator pointed
> something that personally I haven't noticed yet
> but it looks indeed true and somewhat funny.
>
> "It seems this year. Kubica's front wings had not
> passed intactly many times by these initial laps."


on the subject of commentators, i thought Legard did pretty well on sunday, probably his best performance of the season.

so maybe some of the criticism is starting to filter through.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 01:12PM by marwood82.