Japanese Grand Prix Thread !!!***Spoilers***!!!

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Bourdais - I don't think that is as clear cut as
> people are making it out to be.
>
>


>
> Bourdais hit the apex much earlier than normal,
> and appears to slide out wide. The car is already
> partially sideways before it makes contact with
> Massa, and you can see there is at least a car
> widths of room on the inside, which illustrates
> how much he has slidden out.


I have to agree with you there, looking at it again, it seems as if Massa gave Bourdais plenty of room, then Bourdais understeered and slid into him. Which if it is the case, and the stewards will have had more views of the incident, then the penalty is fully justified.

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@ Kubica for driving clearly inferior car and keeping himself in title fight, and for the best defensive dirve I've seen in a while 100% FAIR and sportsmalike.
@ Fernando for pushing like hell when he was asked to push like hell.
@ Weed, although it looks ugly, it helps you understand the race better, as you can clearly see when the tyres went off.


@ Hamilton, for being an idiot and not driving for points. /special thread about this: [www.grandprixgames.org]
@ Kimi for being unable to pass Kubica in clearly superior car thus losing theoretical chance for the title
@ Dr.Thiessen for signing Heidfeld for yet another year, or @ Heidfeld for finishing 9th all the same.

and a special for Blazicko (BAR#10, will know what I'm talking about) for claiming Hamilton's 1st turn move was the best move he has seen in f1 for a long time.

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SexySam182 Wrote:
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> DaveEllis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Bourdais - I don't think that is as clear cut
> as
> > people are making it out to be.
> >
> >


> >
> > Bourdais hit the apex much earlier than normal,
> > and appears to slide out wide. The car is
> already
> > partially sideways before it makes contact with
> > Massa, and you can see there is at least a car
> > widths of room on the inside, which illustrates
> > how much he has slidden out.
>
>
> I have to agree with you there, looking at it
> again, it seems as if Massa gave Bourdais plenty
> of room, then Bourdais understeered and slid into
> him. Which if it is the case, and the stewards
> will have had more views of the incident, then the
> penalty is fully justified.

Bourdais trys to get as far over as possible to give Massa plenty of room. They were not fighting, Massa had to pit 3 laps later. So, Seb gets up on the kerb, slides on his cold tyres and tags Massa. Massa in my opinion should have given more than a cars width considering that he was on fresh rubber taking a tighter line into a hairpin.....

As to the stewards decision, i can only think that these guys haven't raced, or haven't followed racing before... To me, its the reaction of teh same kind of person who says 'F1 isn't a real sport, i once drove 4 hours straight from Portsmouth to Leicester and i wasn't tired at the end! There's just no empathy of what happens when man and machine is on the limit.

The only incident that should have even been CONSIDERED for a penalty was the Massa/Hamilton one. And then i think Massa could have just been given a telling off after the race.

Disgusted.Disgruntled.Disillusioned.

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I still think massa should have got a stop go for the crash with lewis, as I said not only did he hit a car he cut a corner. That is 2 errors there and he only got 1 penalty, if he had not cut that corner he would not have hit lewis.

The Bourdais one is a racing incident its not his fault he came out the pits when he did, as we saw with other drivers they fell in behind the person coming out the pits in order to not crash. Massa did not need to take that risk and is lucky he got away with no damage. Yes Bourdais understeered but massa had loads of room to his left. I still dont agree with the penalty there.

Had Bourdais put his brakes on he probably would have slid into massa, Bourdais was always going to understeer there as you can not keep a car tight like that. You can see Bourdais did have his front wheel on the curb and slid off it, massa did not give him enough room.

I think people are being to harsh on Bourdais as they dont like him.

I am getting fed up though with this "look at it after the race". There was enough time to look at Bourdais incident as there was to look at the massa incident in Valencia.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 10:29AM by marcl.

I have no problem with Bourdais, I am just looking for reasons why the penalty was given.

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When you think about it, Hamilton (along with others) could have been given a penalty for gaining an advantage through going off track. He out-braked himself, forced others back, went miles off, stayed on it, and ended up 5 places ahead of the guy he was overtaking. Had he not made a second error in 2 corners he could well have had a penalty for that. That's a fairly clear 'gaining an advantage'.

Penalties aren't a points or strikes game, but if it were, put together, they certainly warranted a penalty.

I'm not suggesting it would have been right, but if the stewards really were/are against him, in theory they could have justified that penalty, and he could have been given 2 drive through penalties.



Oh, and he's now come out and said that Massa took him out deliberately.

Quote

Lewis Hamilton has accused title rival Felipe Massa of deliberately running into him in the Japanese Grand Prix.

The two men collided as Hamilton tried to pass Massa's Ferrari on the second lap. The Brazilian was handed a drive-through penalty for the incident.

"I took the corner normally and Felipe came back very aggressively and hit me," said Hamilton, whose championship lead was cut by two points to five.

"I think that was pretty much as deliberate as can be."

Source and more: BBC Sport



Now, lets take that part of the first quote. "I took the corner normally". As I pointed out earlier in this thread, he certainly didn't. He was miles away from the normal racing line, and was simply inviting Massa to dive down the inside. Again, I'm not saying Massa was in the right at all, but what did Lewis expect? Go about half-arsed and you'll get bitten.

Does it matter? massa still hit lewis by going off track.

Massa is also saying Lewis broke to late and pushed him off track and into the gravel, yet after the race Massa was not saying that he said they both broke late. So he has changed his story. Them picture on BBC make the massa move look even worse tbh. What did he want lewis to do leave him enough room to come back on track after cutting the corner massa had loads of time to slow that car down to avoid that crash. Lewis made the apex of that corner so he did take his normal line around that corner. Gav you were one of the people that said Lewis could have broke at Spa and come back to the racing line, well massa could have done the same.

Had MS done that to someone most of us would say it was on purpose.

I dont think it was tbh massa just messed up, but it would not be the 1st time for someone to have a go at massa for hitting them. Even though alonso did not say it remember last year at the German gp alonso was not happy that massa turned in on him? Alonso was shouting at him on the way to the podium.

Also the going off the track, many drivers done this at spa and not one got a penalty, kimi got a run on massa by using the extra run off area as did alonso on i think trulli. Also at Spa kimi gained time on Lewis by staying on the run off longer than Lewis did. Again people said this was ok. Kimi would not have lost all them places had kovy not hit him, people can not just blame lewis for that 1st corner. Yes he cost kimi time but kovy pushed kimi off even more.

Different when it invloves Lewis yes?

Lewis has said he messed up, what else can he do turn the clock back?

Also would mclaren have changed his tyres had massa not spun him? probably not as when we saw the tyres after the spin they did not look that bad yes they were flat spotted but i think the "worn out" comment was ott they certainly did not look that way and he was racing ok on them well enough to pass massa.

Once lewis calms down I am sure he will look at it different, kimi also said 2 mclarens hit his car then changed his story to just 1. Drivers say things in the heat of the moment.

And as its been said massa did not pass webber in the correct way, he should not have gone on the red bit of the track, its red for a reason.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 11:11AM by marcl.

For sure it wasn't deliberate, you wouldn't risk your car like that. Its all getting a bit catty between those two. EXACTLY what the people at the media centre want. They were complaining before the weekend that Massa and Hamilton get on too well to make it a classic duel....

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marcl Wrote:
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> Does it matter? massa still hit lewis by going off
> track.

He's accusing a fellow driver of the scummiest type of cheating a driver could do. So yeah, I'd say it matters. You could also argue it's a bit rich, given how close to the bone he drives around his fellow competitors.



marcl Wrote:
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> Them picture on BBC make the massa move look even worse tbh.

You could, you know, look from the camera close to Massa's viewpoint, or won't that show the view you're looking for?



marcl Wrote:
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> What did he want lewis to do leave him enough room to come back on track

I find it very hard to read and interpret your comments when you use no grammar at all, but I've tried to understand what you're saying. To be fair to Massa, Lewis did leave some room, as I've already said twice. He left 0.5-0.75m before you start taking into a account the kerbs. This was the smallest the gap between he and the apex ever was, so from that perspective, Hamilton did close the door to an extent.

Again, I'm not arguing that Massa was in any way right, but I can see why he went for it. There was a gap. Massa deserved his penalty, but once more Hamilton put himself in a poor position. He neither defended or left room. He just sort of sat in the middle, half-hearted.



marcl Wrote:
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> Had MS done that to someone most of us would say
> it was on purpose.

And lots would say it wasn't on purpose too. MS generally divided people down the middle. Either love or hate. But can you honestly say Massa is a dirty driver? He's not exactly got a reputation for punting people off, despite his awful early career.



marcl Wrote:
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> Once lewis calms down I am sure he will look at it
> different, kimi also said 2 mclarens hit his car
> then changed his story to just 1. Drivers say
> things in the heat of the moment.

This isn't heat of the moment. This is the following day. He didn't say that on Sunday, he's stewed on it overnight and come back with this. He didn't need to. He could have just mentioned it in the drivers briefing for Shanghai, or discussed it with Massa. But he's gone public, using the media.

He's showing more nerves than last year.

I did say I dont think massa would do that on purpose, even though both ron and lewis are saying different. Massa is not that type of driver, he probably feels bad that they even crashed.

I have seen the crash from many angles all i was saying is the pics on bbc make it look worse, worse than it was.

What I am saying is, for massa to hit lewis he had to cut the corner which he did. Had massa not cut the corner he would not have hit lewis thats what I am saying.

It does not matter which part of the track lewis had his car, massa should not have hit him he should not have been there.

The above is the reason why Lewis said he cut the corner in Spa, it was to avoid hitting kimi the way massa hit lewis. As I said a lot of you said Lewis could have broke then, well its the same for massa he could have as well but did not.

Also please ignore my comment about the tyres. have looked again and they would not have gone much further.

Kimi also went public saying both mclarens hit him when they both did not

The problem lewis now has is what I was saying before. Its not just the ferrari drivers he is fighting against. Due to pissing off so many drivers a lot are saying they will help massa.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 11:31AM by marcl.

[www.planetf1.com] Stewards contradicted Whiting's advice over Bourdais

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GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 12:17PM by BAR#10.

Seems the stewards have got a lot of explaining to do. It did seem like Massa could have given more room to Bourdais, but he was racing for position. It's a crazy decision to penalise Bourdais, I couldn't see any sense behind it.

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

Not going into doing it by purpose debate, but Massa has become lots more aggressive since Hockenheim (or Hamilton's remarks about him).
I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that Bourdais should just give way because he's fighting for the championship. As Bourdais said he is fighting too - but for next year.
Massa also didn't take responsibility for Valencia Sutil incident, more or less blamed him at the press conference.

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

Massa is still saying he done nothing wrong with the Lewis crash he said its lewis fault for pushing him off lol.

And sorry if thats the rules about people coming out the pits then it should be massa who gets the penalty for braking them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 12:09PM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
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> It does not matter which part of the track lewis
> had his car, massa should not have hit him he
> should not have been there.

I said earlier that that's away from rules and regulations. I said it about Lewis as a critism, not that it gave Massa the right to do so. Hamilton @#$%& that right up. You don't do anything half-heated in F1, because inevitably it will end up in tears. Commit to the move or commit to giving room. To do neither is to leave yourself open to indecision from others.


marcl Wrote:
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> Kimi also went public saying both mclarens hit him
> when they both did not

But Kimi wasn't accusing them of hitting, just saying that they did. Hamilton has said that Massa deliberately drove into him.



I can see where Massa is coming from if he's saying he didn't do much wrong, but he's incorrect. It wasn't going to work. I think it's more guilt talking than anything else.

I think massa would have been better saying "sorry" rather than lewis caused it tbh.

Massa is saying he only had 2 wheels off the track, it looked like he had all 4 to me.

I still dont see what you mean Gav, Massa would have hit him no matter where he put his car. The only way he could have avoided it would have been to stay far right on the track after the corner. That would have allowed massa back on without hitting him.

My point is massa should have broke not gone over the curb. It was clear he had lost the place to Lewis. Lewis did not out brake massa into the corner, massa out broke himself and was wide. He could not cut back as Lewis was there so cut the corner and hit lewis. Thats how I see it. At 1st Brundle was saying what you are saying but after the replay changed his mind.

Alonso has now changed his mind about the Lewis penalty, thats about the 4th driver now to change their view on this race lol

[en.f1-live.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 12:51PM by marcl.

It was Massa's fault, for sure. The penalty was right in case there has to be one.
But Hamilton keeps driving as he was the only one out there... At the end, it was his error that caused a big mess in the first corner (and also Kovalainen).

It was an error people make them what can you do? I dont think he wanted to ruin his and everyone elses race.

Anyway it helped alonso lol thought you would be happy

Again though it provieded a good race if it had not happened it could have been another follow the leader.

Kubica said though had they not gone wide he would have hit someone.

marcl Wrote:
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> It was an error people make them what can you do?
> I dont think he wanted to ruin his and everyone
> elses race.

Of course! But he is not very smart, honestly. WIth a more conservative approach, he would be almost winner already.

marcl Wrote:
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> I still dont see what you mean Gav, Massa would
> have hit him no matter where he put his car. The
> only way he could have avoided it would have been
> to stay far right on the track after the corner.
> That would have allowed massa back on without
> hitting him.



Love those smileys. :D


I'm not saying Massa wouldn't have hit him. I haven't even suggested that. I've said that Lewis put his car in a position that neither defended nor left room. What Lewis did was leave room for indecision in the mind of another driver, so if Massa thought there might have been room (which in that split-second he may have done), then he would have tried to stick his car up the inside. When he realised there wasn't room, he had to go off the track, and still hit Hamilton.

It's 99% Massa's fault, but Lewis's own actions were what caused Massa to do it - leave no gap and Massa wouldn't have even attempted it. Lewis paid the penalty with his own indecision putting indecision in the mind of another driver.

Massa got what he deserved, but if Hamilton doesn't know where to put his own car, then he's going to burn his own and others races from time to time.


All my opinion of course, but I think it's a valid one when you look at the replays. Hamilton didn't do anything wrong in terms of breaking rules, and I'm not trying to imply that, but looking at his own race and situation, he was far from going it right in that incident.