Ferrari: Hamilton title would be tainted
Posted by mika19b
Look people the whole thing is a con. The FIA have punished MC for cheating with limited evidence as seen by reading the full report and for doing something the other teams do in different ways. Now we have Stepney claiming Ferrari benefitted and they may well have done. Many fans back Ferrari but they ran an illegal car in Australia and it was there empolyee that started this so i hardly think they are innocent. Had the FIA punished the drivers the season would have finished in Paris and the damage to the sport would have been far worse not to mention the FIA probably didn't feel comfortable doing that with the evidence they had.
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"Stories and speculation are not acceptable in a court of any respectabe form."
Maybe you should stop deflecting the issue and think for a second that the WMSC is not a court of law.
"Proof is what's needed and you seem unable to supply such a thing, but would rather continue to use speculation and rumours as a basis of your incorrect allegation that the McLaren car is not legal, and therefore the drivers championship null and void."
Actually i can supply enough evidence that in the eyes of a reasonable person casts doubt over the verdict and the proceedings of the hearing.
But seeing your reaction to a very relevant point about the emails it would obviously be a waste of time. Hell, you can even contact Forrest Bond and check how speculative the email story is.
Infact, i dare you to do so. Maybe you can learn something, instead of calling every bit of news that puts McLaren in less than a positive light a speculation.
Though somehow i get the feeling that you won't.
Maybe you should stop deflecting the issue and think for a second that the WMSC is not a court of law.
"Proof is what's needed and you seem unable to supply such a thing, but would rather continue to use speculation and rumours as a basis of your incorrect allegation that the McLaren car is not legal, and therefore the drivers championship null and void."
Actually i can supply enough evidence that in the eyes of a reasonable person casts doubt over the verdict and the proceedings of the hearing.
But seeing your reaction to a very relevant point about the emails it would obviously be a waste of time. Hell, you can even contact Forrest Bond and check how speculative the email story is.
Infact, i dare you to do so. Maybe you can learn something, instead of calling every bit of news that puts McLaren in less than a positive light a speculation.
Though somehow i get the feeling that you won't.
"It is a court. That is enough for it to need proof beyond doubt in a modern civilised society rather than this guilty by random stories until proven innocent world you seem to be living in."
Not really. But it's not surprising that you're not familiar with the balance of probabilities and ask for a criminal case standard of proof since it would suit your argument. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the case in hand.
"This is stunning news, but yet doesn't surprise me in the slightest."
Considering that Ferrari were unable to use a certain submission by McLaren (see Tozzi pp. 32, 42 of the September 13th transcript) and the FIA didn't want to follow up on that submission on their own and the content of that submission has now been made public your sarcasm is clearly misplaced.
"Your point seems to be that emails have gone missing."
No, it's the very same emails used as the evidence in the hearing.
"rofl! Of course I won't!"
That's right, you're too chickenshit to do so. Big hat, big boots and no cattle, i'm afraid. Flailing away at the keyboard is a lot safer.
"You are the one saying you have PROOF that the McLaren is illegal, therefore it is YOUR responsibility to post proof, not mine!"
Err, i gave you a respected journalist as a source. You called his work a speculation and now you lack the balls to contend it. Bleating about me asking you to post proof won't wash since i've never asked that from you.
"As I have said, at the current time there is no proof that McLaren used technical secrets from Ferrari on their cars, therefore the entire is legal."
As long as their's no cognitive dissonance, right?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2007 12:53PM by tripleM.
Not really. But it's not surprising that you're not familiar with the balance of probabilities and ask for a criminal case standard of proof since it would suit your argument. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the case in hand.
"This is stunning news, but yet doesn't surprise me in the slightest."
Considering that Ferrari were unable to use a certain submission by McLaren (see Tozzi pp. 32, 42 of the September 13th transcript) and the FIA didn't want to follow up on that submission on their own and the content of that submission has now been made public your sarcasm is clearly misplaced.
"Your point seems to be that emails have gone missing."
No, it's the very same emails used as the evidence in the hearing.
"rofl! Of course I won't!"
That's right, you're too chickenshit to do so. Big hat, big boots and no cattle, i'm afraid. Flailing away at the keyboard is a lot safer.
"You are the one saying you have PROOF that the McLaren is illegal, therefore it is YOUR responsibility to post proof, not mine!"
Err, i gave you a respected journalist as a source. You called his work a speculation and now you lack the balls to contend it. Bleating about me asking you to post proof won't wash since i've never asked that from you.
"As I have said, at the current time there is no proof that McLaren used technical secrets from Ferrari on their cars, therefore the entire is legal."
As long as their's no cognitive dissonance, right?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2007 12:53PM by tripleM.
Well played gentleman.
But I must refute this claim from welshjim22:
"Many fans back Ferrari but they ran an illegal car in Australia"
That is totally untrue. The Ferrari (and the McLaren) were both deemed Legal at the Australian event. The regulations were clarified after the race.
@ DaveEllis and tripleM
I like the debate youre having.
The vagaries of the F.I.A. court and law in general,have me completely confused, I make no secret of that.
McLaren were found guilty.... So I think we can only assume the weight of evidence against them was sufficient. Maybe not in a respectable court, but certainly in a sporting court. We wouldn't even be having the debate started in this thread had Hamilton's popularity not been a direct influence in the decision to allow the drivers to continue their Championship campaign.
However, all this talk of there being insufficient proof is misguided. There obviously was sufficient proof for the F.I.A. court, McLaren are looking at possible expulsion next year. I don't think Ron would have accepted (albeit grudgingly) the penalties in the manner he has if actions of one rogue employee had not been damning enough for the decisions to be based on.
But I must refute this claim from welshjim22:
"Many fans back Ferrari but they ran an illegal car in Australia"
That is totally untrue. The Ferrari (and the McLaren) were both deemed Legal at the Australian event. The regulations were clarified after the race.
@ DaveEllis and tripleM
I like the debate youre having.
The vagaries of the F.I.A. court and law in general,have me completely confused, I make no secret of that.
McLaren were found guilty.... So I think we can only assume the weight of evidence against them was sufficient. Maybe not in a respectable court, but certainly in a sporting court. We wouldn't even be having the debate started in this thread had Hamilton's popularity not been a direct influence in the decision to allow the drivers to continue their Championship campaign.
However, all this talk of there being insufficient proof is misguided. There obviously was sufficient proof for the F.I.A. court, McLaren are looking at possible expulsion next year. I don't think Ron would have accepted (albeit grudgingly) the penalties in the manner he has if actions of one rogue employee had not been damning enough for the decisions to be based on.
No worries,I can see the sense in that.
Yes, Mad dog on the loose....It's interesting his book has been withdrawn.
I wish Stepney would just lay the cards on the table...I guess he's waiting for his day in court and hoping Ferrari will withdraw the case?
Yes, Mad dog on the loose....It's interesting his book has been withdrawn.
I wish Stepney would just lay the cards on the table...I guess he's waiting for his day in court and hoping Ferrari will withdraw the case?
Oh man. The following is based on the available contents of Paddy Lowe's confidential submission to the WMSC hearing on September 13th.
In an email dated 14 April 2007, 14:40 which was a reply to de la Rosa's email from 12 April 2007 10:28 Coughlan sent him a simplified description of Ferrari's brake balance system which was confirmed to be correct by Jean Todt in his email dated 06 September 2007, 18:29. Infact Coughlan's reply included the level of specific brake balance produced at varying levels of brake pedal pressure.
Now you will see why the bit of news above is very important to the outcome of the world championship. McLaren's curiosity about Ferrari's braking system is explained by the change to Bridgestones for 2007. Contrary to the popular view that McLaren were instantly competitive despite the change, McLaren did have problems with locking up of inside tires. Accrding to Lowe's submission "too much braking load was being placed on the front of the car towards the later stages of each individual braking maneuver as the car started to turn into the corner."
Mclaren did consider adapting a system which allowed to adjust the brake bias for every corner but discarded the idea as a system which allowed the load during braking to be adjusted was needed. According to Lowe this was determined as early as 4th December 2006.
Pat Fry was selected to head a team of people created to address the problem. According to Lowe Fry had several brainstorming sessions with Coughlan and specialist engineers during December-February. Instead of merely managing the design office like McLaren claimed at the hearing, Coughlan was one of the most important people in the project.
As late as March 7th after trying two mechanical solutions McLaren were still unable to find a breakthrough. Lowe came up with an idea to use a hydraulic device to solve the problems. After studying and lab-testing the new idea, a team was created to oversee the installation of the device. Coughlan was not part of that team, but his design office did the engineering drawings.
The solution was tested on the simulator on March 22nd but at the Sepand test prior to the race showed that the characteristics were incorrect and a redesign was needed. According to Lowe there were 6 design parameters associated with the device which needed to be different. In the end the system was first raced in Spain and has been used ever since.
In an email dated 25 March 2007 01:43 de la Rosa mentions that the system brought McLaren an improvement of 2-3 tenths in the simulator. But more importantly certain specific details (which are impossible to obtain by any means other than a mole) about Ferrari's braking system were also mentioned.
The period prior to the email exchange mentioned in the beginning of my post also included one of the most intense exchanges of text messages between Coughlan and Stepney. Furthermore during the meeting in Barcelona, Coughlan was given 3D CAD images of the complete brake system layout and installation and a diagram of the brake system and a related spline drive and discussed how the system worked. Later in London Coughlan also received a number of pages of information about Ferrari's brakes.
Critically, according to Lowe the race-ready brake bias control system was produced only shortly before the Spanish race, after the information about Ferrari's brakes was given.
Coughlan's discredited affidavit mentions that Rob Taylor was shown one of the Stepney's drawings as a matter of historical interest, while at the hearing it was found that the drawing was a proper engineering rendering done by Coughlan on the basis of Stepney's sketch. Taylor was working at Ferrari in the 90's where he designed a hydraulically actuated brake balance system, but surprisingly his name is not mentioned by Lowe as part of the team involved with the brake project in 2007. It's reasonable to conclude that the discussions with Taylor weren't done for historic reasons, Coughlan needed a person familiar with the previous systems used by Ferrari to better understand how the current one operates.
It's only reasonable to conclude comparing the timeline of McLaren's problems with implementing their system and the information learned by Coughlan in the same period that it's entirely plausible that a potential championship by Hamilton or Alonso is indeed tainted.
Credit to racefax.com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2007 02:13PM by tripleM.
In an email dated 14 April 2007, 14:40 which was a reply to de la Rosa's email from 12 April 2007 10:28 Coughlan sent him a simplified description of Ferrari's brake balance system which was confirmed to be correct by Jean Todt in his email dated 06 September 2007, 18:29. Infact Coughlan's reply included the level of specific brake balance produced at varying levels of brake pedal pressure.
Now you will see why the bit of news above is very important to the outcome of the world championship. McLaren's curiosity about Ferrari's braking system is explained by the change to Bridgestones for 2007. Contrary to the popular view that McLaren were instantly competitive despite the change, McLaren did have problems with locking up of inside tires. Accrding to Lowe's submission "too much braking load was being placed on the front of the car towards the later stages of each individual braking maneuver as the car started to turn into the corner."
Mclaren did consider adapting a system which allowed to adjust the brake bias for every corner but discarded the idea as a system which allowed the load during braking to be adjusted was needed. According to Lowe this was determined as early as 4th December 2006.
Pat Fry was selected to head a team of people created to address the problem. According to Lowe Fry had several brainstorming sessions with Coughlan and specialist engineers during December-February. Instead of merely managing the design office like McLaren claimed at the hearing, Coughlan was one of the most important people in the project.
As late as March 7th after trying two mechanical solutions McLaren were still unable to find a breakthrough. Lowe came up with an idea to use a hydraulic device to solve the problems. After studying and lab-testing the new idea, a team was created to oversee the installation of the device. Coughlan was not part of that team, but his design office did the engineering drawings.
The solution was tested on the simulator on March 22nd but at the Sepand test prior to the race showed that the characteristics were incorrect and a redesign was needed. According to Lowe there were 6 design parameters associated with the device which needed to be different. In the end the system was first raced in Spain and has been used ever since.
In an email dated 25 March 2007 01:43 de la Rosa mentions that the system brought McLaren an improvement of 2-3 tenths in the simulator. But more importantly certain specific details (which are impossible to obtain by any means other than a mole) about Ferrari's braking system were also mentioned.
The period prior to the email exchange mentioned in the beginning of my post also included one of the most intense exchanges of text messages between Coughlan and Stepney. Furthermore during the meeting in Barcelona, Coughlan was given 3D CAD images of the complete brake system layout and installation and a diagram of the brake system and a related spline drive and discussed how the system worked. Later in London Coughlan also received a number of pages of information about Ferrari's brakes.
Critically, according to Lowe the race-ready brake bias control system was produced only shortly before the Spanish race, after the information about Ferrari's brakes was given.
Coughlan's discredited affidavit mentions that Rob Taylor was shown one of the Stepney's drawings as a matter of historical interest, while at the hearing it was found that the drawing was a proper engineering rendering done by Coughlan on the basis of Stepney's sketch. Taylor was working at Ferrari in the 90's where he designed a hydraulically actuated brake balance system, but surprisingly his name is not mentioned by Lowe as part of the team involved with the brake project in 2007. It's reasonable to conclude that the discussions with Taylor weren't done for historic reasons, Coughlan needed a person familiar with the previous systems used by Ferrari to better understand how the current one operates.
It's only reasonable to conclude comparing the timeline of McLaren's problems with implementing their system and the information learned by Coughlan in the same period that it's entirely plausible that a potential championship by Hamilton or Alonso is indeed tainted.
Credit to racefax.com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2007 02:13PM by tripleM.
LOL, even though I know I shouldn't.
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