Nice race, apart from the FIA

WTF?

montoya is making f1 exciting.if it wasnt for montoya all we would hear about is how great ms is!

MONTOYA IS A GREAT AND EXCITING DRIVER WHO SHOULD STAY IN F1!

FULL STOP[/]

Yo Sup

Go home to cart? I do belive he drove F3000 before that so has he got to go home back to that too?




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

MS this, MS that. JPM rules. Blah blah blah.

All I see is JPM will end up killing a driver with his bullish tactics.

Yes, MS cut over in front of JPM but remember, THAT IS ALLOWED when he starts.

This is NOT the 1st time JPM has done this. He did it in Brazil last year. Look at him in AUssie 2002, he couldn't handle the pressure of MS being behind him.

JPM is a reckless driver and he didn't leave MS enough room. Yes he was ahead but by a hair which means you should stay on your line but not knock someone for it. He should of yealded a bit so that they woudn't touch. This is why JPM got the penalty in which I agree with.

And if JPM is so good, why did he come in 2nd instead of 1st? MS went fromn P21 to P3 while JPM went from P11 to P2. Wow, shows who's better huh?



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Yo Sup

"All I see is JPM will end up killing a driver with his bullish tactics."

how many times have we said that bout MS though?

"which means you should stay on your line but not knock someone for it"

LOL tell that to MS!!!!

"And if JPM is so good, why did he come in 2nd instead of 1st?"

cos Ralf was good enough to keep the gap up?

If MS is good why didnt he win?

MS had 'easy' cars to pass first.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

"And if JPM is so good, why did he come in 2nd instead of 1st? MS went fromn P21 to P3 while JPM went from P11 to P2. Wow, shows who's better huh?"

what kind of comment is that??

sorry CDN_Merlin but i strongly disagree with you.

no.1
JPM had to go in for a drive through penalty which lost him aot of time.

no.2
who was stuck behind bernoldi for about 2 laps and was actually taken over by bernoldi.!

no.3
i dont think a sauber relates to the same as a minardi!

no.4
how many drivers had to pit and then ms didnt even have to take them over!


JPM was unfairly done by the FIA.

Sorry CDN_Merlin, there is no way that I can agree with your comments. Have you ever seen Top Gun? You remember when Iceman said "I don't like you because your dangerous" well was'nt Maverick more interesting to watch than Iceman...passion not cool and calculating?
That's like JPM and MS...MS is at least as dangerous with his swerve across racetrack tactics, just because he's allowed to do it doesnt mean its safe! F1 is dangerous by definition...your contradicting yourself by saying JPM is dangerous but MS swerving is ok, safe even.
Chris J

MS's move over at the start is a legal move according to the FIA. He does t his every race. As for MS being passed and JOM getting a penalty, remember also that MS had 3 pit stops and JPM had 2. Ralph only woin cause Rubens engine blew.

Same for last yrs Monza race. Everyone keeps saying JPM won that race, BS it was given to him because of a pit stop problem with Rubens. He had that race in his hand.

I'm starting to think people like JPM just cause he's the only man who will challenge MS. I wonder what everyone would be thinking if Senna was still alive and JPM was pulling these moves on him. I bet your thoughts on JPM would be sour.

Sorry, but I will never like JPM. The only place I find MS is a bit dangerous is on his take off move. Everywhere else, I find JPM is the worst and I'm dreading the day he smashes with another car and kills the driver.



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"Sorry, but I will never like JPM. The only place I find MS is a bit dangerous is on his take off move. Everywhere else, I find JPM is the worst and I'm dreading the day he smashes with another car and kills the driver."


how many times have people said this in this topic? and you still cant accept it

2 examples from jim

"adelaide 1994"

"jerez 1997"

ms has the bullish tactics and when he is treated with some of his own tactics he cant take it!! just a sore loser who in fairness won world championships fair and square (except ferrari were the best team) but also won championships by bullish and dangerous driving!

<<Ralph only woin cause Rubens engine blew.>>

Wasn't Rubens in second when his engine blew?

<< I wonder what everyone would be thinking if Senna was still alive and JPM was pulling these moves on him. I bet your thoughts on JPM would be sour.>>

I'd be all for it! Someone who can challenge the top guys, no matter who they are, gets respect from me. Alesi did it in Phoenix '90, and everyone was saying how much of a young genius he was at the time.

<<JPM is a reckless driver>>

Absolutely not. Would you call Villeneuve a reckless driver? Some of his passes in his first few years (particularly Portugal '96) were more dangerous than any of JPM's. And I wouldn't call him a reckless driver. I'd call JPM a very fast, committed, confident driver. He might have been a little crazy in the first few races of last year up to Canada, but he's calmed down now. He knows how to drive a race now.

<<He should of yealded a bit so that they woudn't touch.>>

*yielded

JPM is a racer....he's the kind of guy who keeps his foot down. Senna was the same. When overtaking drivers, he would often put them in situations where they had to face an accident or lift off. Was he reckless, too?

Thanks for catching my spelling mistake.

As for Senna being all for it, isn't he the one who decked Irvine for saying he was to slow?

Yes, sorry I made a mistake about Rubens.

Yes, I've read about MS's stupid moves in 94 and 97 but when will you guys give up on those and say he has improved? My problem is JPM is a hothead when he's driving and he already has made more than 2 stupid moves.

Anytime JPM will be in the front with MS, I will be praying that JPM doens't make a stupif move. I wonder what will happen in Brazil in 2 weeks.



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"Anytime JPM will be in the front with MS, I will be praying that JPM doens't make a stupif move."

Its no matter where he is, behind or in front. In both, he will find a way to make a dangerous move and kick someone off.

Merlin - you read my thoughts.

Montoya is disaster on the wheels.

Wow, someone actually agree's with me. Sorry I agree that JPM is a good driver but he's young, immature, reckless and it will cost someone their life.



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Hey canuck do you know the word "fatalism"?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

should make for a intersting season now that a marker has been set down by JPM

You're always saying this. I remember clearly you saying words to the effect of: I can't wait to see Schumacher try that startline chop on Montoya, because Montoya just won't take it. Schumacher's in for a big shock.

Well I didn't notice Schumi having much trouble cutting across Montoya. Montoya is not the big tough guy you think he is. He isn't scared of Schumacher - but that's half his problem. He thinks he has the right to do anything and get away with it. My first impression of him was that he was too big for his boots - and I still think that. He has shown that he cannot handle tough situations, when he is under pressure.

this is actaully the point of impact. The Ferrari wheel is NOT on the kerb, it is the air, which is what happened when they touched

Nope sorry but you're wrong - that picture is nowhere near the point of impact. It simply shows that Schumi is having to take to the kerb to make himself more room.

I do belive he drove F3000 before that

Yes he did and he was the same in F3000 as well. He used his big bully tactics then as well, I distinctly remember his arrogant attitude on track.

Yes, MS cut over in front of JPM but remember, THAT IS ALLOWED when he starts

You have another person here who is supporting you CDN_Merlin. I agree with most of what you say.

just because he's allowed to do it doesnt mean its safe

Just because Grand Prix drivers are allowed to drive F1 cars around a race track at 200mph every other weekend, it doesn't mean it's safe. It's within the rules, and he clearly knows what he's doing. When he does his chops, the speeds are low, and looking at JPM's onboard cam, he didn't even lift off when Michael came across the track - Schumacher was merely making one legal move across the track to defend his position into the first corner. Simple as that. Nothing dangerous.

I'm starting to think people like JPM just cause he's the only man who will challenge MS

Couldn't agree more.

JPM is a reckless driver

There are two types of reckless driver. There is the one who takes no prisoners. Senna is one who springs to mind. Michael Schumacher is another. They are right on the edge, balancing between success and disaster. Yet they are in control. They know what they're doing. The other reckless driver is one who is confident, yet does not have full control of the situation - and in my opinion, Montoya currently falls into that category. He is not experienced enough to go fighting Schumi like he tries to - so far, it has nearly always ended in disaster, because of JPM. Brazil 2001 was a great move, but was dangerous, and if Schumi was caught unawares, which he was only to an extent, then it would have been a big accident. However, Austria 2001, that just goes to show how easily JPM cracks under pressure. He tried to act on the track like he does to the press. And it didn't wor. The same applies with Malaysia on Sunday. He is a super talented driver, and super fast, no doubt, but he isn't ready to go banging wheels with Michael.

JPM is a racer....he's the kind of guy who keeps his foot down

As I've said - at the moment, at his age and with his limited experience - that is exactly what his problem is.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

did i notice that Alex is saind that shumi is the same guy as is jpm... or senna?
senna started his carriere like this, shumi did it too, whay jpm wuldn't?



Senna the Man... the King... the God!

All I can say is that M$ said in german something on the line off: "I had no understeer problem and if JPM had left enough room for me nothing would have happened". So why does he say in other interviews: "It was a typical racing accident"? Is he a schizophrenic? Like two minds in one head and both say different things? It is always the same: If something happens it is always the fault of other drivers. What M$ has done here is the same as he had done with JV 1997. And had to admitt later that this was a mistake, too. I know Senna and Prost did some bumpercar-racing as well, but they didn't put the blame on other drivers.
I tell you, as long as Ferrari is able toput some pressure on the FIA and Mosley, nothing will change. If you want to know waht I mean, goto
[www.atlasf1.com]

and read the paragraph:

"The new engine regulations for 1989 onwards were being finalised for 3.5 litre V8 engines. Ferrari however wanted to build a V12. So they put pressure on the FIA by building an Indycar. The FIA changed the regs and V12's were allowed - and Ferrari (and Lamborghini) built their Formula One V12's."

This is how they work at Maranello. They know that F1 without Ferrari loses some of its thrill, so they know how to deal with Mosley and Co.

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

ah, come on
JPM is a reckless driver

There are two types of reckless driver. There is the one who takes no prisoners. Senna is one who springs to mind. Michael Schumacher is another. They are right on the edge, balancing between success and disaster. Yet they are in control. They know what they're doing. The other reckless driver is one who is confident, yet does not have full control of the situation - and in my opinion, Montoya currently falls into that category. He is not experienced enough to go fighting Schumi like he tries to - so far, it has nearly always ended in disaster, because of JPM. Brazil 2001 was a great move, but was dangerous, and if Schumi was caught unawares, which he was only to an extent, then it would have been a big accident. However, Austria 2001, that just goes to show how easily JPM cracks under pressure. He tried to act on the track like he does to the press. And it didn't wor. The same applies with Malaysia on Sunday. He is a super talented driver, and super fast, no doubt, but he isn't ready to go banging wheels with Michael.


Can't think of a better compareable race incident for what happened at sunday's start than Austria 2001. JPM said he had got wheel lock back then, but everybody saw that he released the brakes a bit and on sunday everybody saw that MS was later on the brakes and everybody saw (and MS said it in german TV) that he didn't had understeer.

my opinion,montoya didn't leave michael any room,there was simply no-where for ms to go,i've only seem this from montoya car but there was no room for both of them.montoya wasn't going to yield and neither was michael.the papers this morning described it as 'juans moment of madness'
it's a shame that this happened as we could of had a really good race not just with michael and montoya but also with ralf as we all know how much he and montoya get on.
i don't think resorting to name calling on the forum is welcome in fact quite pathetic,we all have opinions and i enjoy reding other peoples comments,some of which i agree some not and some a view from which i've not seen.lets keep it clean

Oh come ON!! Have some consistency in your critique! I thought we agreed to discuss this in a respectable way!

1) Alex first you show us a slideshow of pics claiming that JPM had understeer like M$ had. We all know that a car that understeers wants to continue in a straight line, and it usually comes from carrying to much speed into the corner. So by that argument, both drivers were beyond the limit.

BUT! JPM was on the outside, so he would go in a more or less straight line. Who would that be a problem for? None , because JPM was in the outside, and would not hit anyone if he understeered. He would just lose speed and thus position, or in a worst case scenario, he would go off the track. Who is it a problem for when the dude on the inside understeers? The dude on the outside of the corner!! So clearly M$ had a safety issue to think about, that JPM did not have! And frankly how can JPM cut across/squeeze the man in the inside, if he has lost control due to understeer??? That simply does not make sense!!

JPM cannot both be on the outside, lose control to understeer, and aggressively and dangerously turn in on the man on the inside! So either you are saying that JPM was in control (over had oversteer) and squeezed M$, or he had lost due to understeer, but that cannot generate the crash. Or you can uses Alex's faulty argument that JPM should have anticipated the understeer (which also is loss of control) that M$ had, and backed off because M$ has the right of way when he has lost control of his car.

Now which one is it? Make up your mind, and then maybe we can talk some sense!

2) The picture that Alex claims shows that JPM is squeezing M$ in, and me and Ellis2kx claim shows the moment of impact. Look very carefully at the picture, specifically the right front wheel on the ferrari. Yes there isn't much room. BUT, you can see that the tyre is elevated from the kerb. Now, the only time that tyres (if the car isn't very poorly balanced) lift off the surface is either when they go over a bump, or if the experience sudden lateral g-forces to the opposite side of the wheel. Look at the picture! You can clearly see the shadow of the tyre [behind] the tyre. It [must] be off the surface.

Now, was M$ car poorly balanced, going over a bump, or is it the moment of impact? Make up your mind, and then maybe we can talk some sense!

You can also deny that the wheel is in the air, but then M$ does not have a problem, since the ideal line for that very corner, is to huge the curb . I sat and watched the race again yesterday, and you can clearly see that every car (under normal circumstances) strives to hug that curb as much as possible, so they exit in a good turn-in position for left hander that follows. He is on the ideal racing line, and the only way he could get in trouble is if he had lost control due to understeer, or JPM lost control due to oversteer, or if JPM was in control and rammed him deliberately. Make up your mind, and then maybe we can talk some sense!

3) Montoya is to young and inexperienced. He does not have the skill and maturity to bang wheels with masters that have M$ mental stature. Schumi is very experienced now so he can do it, and we should forgive his *irregularities* in 1994 and 1997. JPM will get someone killed if he is not stopped soon, as he has already proven in F1 and F3000.

BUT! Well, according to the canuck (and surely you will not deny it either Alex) Schumi was an highly talented, but immature, reckless and inexperienced driver when he joined the F1 circus. That led to the disasters in 1994 and 1997. We should forgive that now. But I cannot see how you can apply this standard in retrospective on M$ and at the same time fail to do the same on JPM in the present. This smells hugely of a double standard. If we can say that we should forgive M$ because he has shed his bad habits and he has improved, surely you would give the same benefits for JPM wouldn't you. Since JPM joined last year, then in my book, and by your own logic he has this season and 2 more to become a well tempered, mature and stable driver. Correct? Or can M$ really enjoy benefits that his rivals cannot?

And to take up the F3000 argument. One of the danish commentators of the GP was Jason Watts. He is a big M$ fan, AND he has banged wheels with JPM in F3000, before he sadly was paralysed from the chest down in a racing accident (which did not involve JPM by the way!). And to start with he wanted to see a replay before he placed any blame on either of them. Then the replay came, and he said it looked weird, but he couldn't see it any other way than M$ had tried to carry to much speed into the corner and had slided into JPM because of understeer. He never uttered the possiblity of the fault being with JPM! Clearly it is possible to be an big M$ fan, and at the same time admit that the master is human after all, and despite all his talents, skill and experience, he can make small mistakes even today . I am also pretty sure that a lot of people could attest to the fact that M$ sure looked like he was going to get some killed both in F1 and F3000. Häkkinen generally seemed pretty pleased with M$ style in F1, but that was certainly NOT the case in F3000. It is a common claim that the new guy is dangerous and will get someone killed. Räikkonen had to listen to it last season, Massa is taking that load of crap now. Even Villeneuve has had to listen to that load of hogwash when he came to F1. And while we are talking of Villeneuve it was him that introduced JPM as a killer (to which JPM replied just as harshly), after their brake testing games at Montreal. And both have since apologized for the incident and admitted that their statments were wrong. If Villeneuve, who introduced the killer theory, does not subscribe to it anymore why should you? And if M$ called the intermezzo at Sepang a racing incident, why should you want to make it a matter of life and death? Wouldn't it be more relevant after Melbourne to discuss if Ralf or Barrichello are potential killers?

And finallly regarding the killing spree, who has JPM left dead or maimed in his trail? Surely if he is a killer he would have shown it by now wouldn't he? Make up your mind, and then maybe we can talk some sense!

Come on Alex, at least I know for a fact that you enjoy (at least you used to) discussing these issues without the "Booh"-"hurrah"tendencies, and the no holds barred style of argumentation.

Remember this thread?

[www.php-service.de]

And if my post that began with "I subscribe to that point of view. " threw you into this bloodlust fit, you should look at the time it was posted. 3 minutes after Ellis2kx posted his! I actually meant what I wrote in extension to your post which ran like this:

Quote: "It will be called a racing incident, because its just not clear whose fault it was, all we can give is our opinions.

Agreed."

What happened dude? You used to be cool under fire...

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Ah jeez!!! I forget to switch off the bold somewhere! Now 2/3 of my post looks like I am screaming at the top of my lungs

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.