Unification

NeilPearson Wrote:
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> Iceman-Kimi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Im a bit tired and cant really read it all, can
> > someone tell in short whats it is about?
>
> you are stupid. hows that?
>
>
> anyway i decided on a list of combined tracks
> they need to run
>
>
> Homestead
> Long Beach
> Motegi
> Kansas
> Indianapolis
> Milwaukee
> Texas
> Laguna Seca
> Richmond
> Watkins Glen
> Cleveland
> Mid-Ohio
> Toronto
> Portland
> Belle Isle
> Road America
> Australia
> Chicagoland

Australia should open as it used to and then be followed by a short oval such as Richmond. Motegi should finish the year.

Motegi's not gonna move much from its agreed date though.

I can't believe the CCWS people are being so short-sighted and incompetent. How come Kevin only knew like a day before the deadline?!

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

Might sound like a silly question but if the two were to unite, what car would they use?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Sod the single car rule, let Reynard, Penske and Dallara at it again like the good ol' days.

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

chet Wrote:
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> Might sound like a silly question but if the two
> were to unite, what car would they use?


Dallara. The Panoz DP01 is a mess.

Anyway, as much as I'd like to have more makers in, it just won't happen. Reynard is dead and the remaining chassis are owned by Derek Walker, who hasn't used them for many a season. Swift aren't exactly doing well, and are currently supplying the Champ Car Mazda Atlantic chassis - a series which could die in the decision to merge. Penske no longer have the facilities to produce there own chassis like they did before as that aspect of the company is now dedicated to running the Porsche Spyder LMP2s. AAR (Eagle) are no longer around. All you have left from the old CART days is Lola, and all that you have from IRLs side is Dallara and Panoz.

So realisticly you can have 3 at most, but I wouldn't want Panoz involved and would be happy to settle for Dallara at least until the point that Lola can get a new car together. Lola got dumped from CCWS just for the car being slightly more expensive than the DP01, and there new Daytona Prototype has been less than impressive so far.

IRL has new rules coming in 2009/2010/2011 so we could get a new generation of cars by then, but until then Dallara and IRL can easily afford to supply cars for both series teams.

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super__alonso Wrote:
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>>
> Australia should open as it used to and then be
> followed by a short oval such as Richmond. Motegi
> should finish the year.

Australia moved for some reason, im not sure but it was in 1997 iirc 1996 i was there so i know it was in march

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Might sound like a silly question but if the two
> > were to unite, what car would they use?
>
>
> Dallara. The Panoz DP01 is a mess.

The Panoz had new car problems but worked better towards the end of the season, I think its fine now. Is the Dallara the car of choice in the IRL or is it the orphan? I don't follow the IRL so I can't recall which car is the one that most of the teams drive these days.

> Swift aren't
> exactly doing well, and are currently supplying
> the Champ Car Mazda Atlantic chassis - a series
> which could die in the decision to merge.

It shouldn't, its a better development series then the dreadful IRL one which has yet to produce any decent drivers.

> Penske
> no longer have the facilities to produce there own
> chassis like they did before as that aspect of the
> company is now dedicated to running the Porsche
> Spyder LMP2s. AAR (Eagle) are no longer around.

I'd be willing to bet that Penske would jump at the chance to develop his own chasis again if he were allowed. When he switch to the IRL he applied to produce his own but was denied by TG.

And as for Montegi, Long Beach is a much more important race, if they don't move it then they should drop it.

The Panoz had new car problems but worked better towards the end of the season, I think its fine now

It isn't fine! Even at the end of the year it had major technical issues and the chassis were being PATCHED UP because of stress cracks! Champ Car had to bring in a 3rd party engineer to fix the fuel tank and electrical issues the car had because Panoz couldn't.

Is the Dallara the car of choice in the IRL or is it the orphan? I don't follow the IRL so I can't recall which car is the one that most of the teams drive these days.

Everyone uses the Dallara. It's faster and safer. The Panoz (branded as G-Force) is the one that isn't used much.

It shouldn't, its a better development series then the dreadful IRL one which has yet to produce any decent drivers.

So whats wrong with Marco Andretti and Alex Lloyd? The Atlantics have produced some right junk too. Katherine Legge, Charles Zwolsman and even Danica Patrick.

I'd be willing to bet that Penske would jump at the chance to develop his own chasis again if he were allowed. When he switch to the IRL he applied to produce his own but was denied by TG.

He was only applying for it in IRL Because Penskes resources at the time would have allowed them to trounce chassis like Dallara and G-Force. In a highly competitive series, such as CART in the 90s, Penske chassis struggled. And now that they run the "official" works Porsche Spyder LMP2 and another car in NASCAR for Sam Hornish, I doubt they'd take the risk on there own chassis.

On the unification note - Champ Car has an announcement on Sunday on the future of the series, which is rumored to be a bankruptcy announcement. Declaring this will allow them to break contracts without legal action and move everything into IRL.

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In a highly competitive series, such as CART in the 90s, Penske chassis struggled



Hard time for Penske (dominating Indy 94).






they struggled only in 98 and 99, up until than they either won or were close to winning the championship

most notable was 94 when they dominated

and they almost won in 93(Tracy, Fittipaldi) 95(Unser Jr.) and 97(Tracy).

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Kinda side-stepped the point there. When costs and technology went up around 96, Penske dropped back. Penske took a MAJOR fall after 94 and by 98 they had only 2 podiums between the 2 cars. 1999, the good results came with the Reynard chassis, not the Penske and by 2000 the change over to Reynard was complete and they won the Championship. Such a massive turn around in less than 1 year shows how poor the Penske chassis were when the competition, costs and technology stepped up a notch in the late 90s.

Penske are currently running 2 IRL Dallaras, 3 NASCAR Sprint Chargers, 2 NASCAR Nationwide Chargers, are involved with several Craftsman Truck Series teams, part-run Penske-Taylors Grand Am Daytona Prototype, and run the works Porsche Spyder LMP2 effort. To then expand to producing there own chassis is a long shot and a massive gamble given there last efforts. None of the cars Penske currently run are designed by them.

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Penske took a MAJOR fall after 94 and by 98 they had only 2 podiums between the 2 cars

1995 Al Unser challenged Villeneuve for the title until the last race.

1997 Paul Tracy challenged Zanardi for the title until the last race.

I do not consider that a MAJOR fall.

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I do not consider that a MAJOR fall.

1995 - Domination
1998 - 2 podiums

I consider that a monumental fall. And again, the team improved instantly when they scrapped there own chassis, which is what this topic is currently about. Penskes most recent custom chassis were poor, and now they have more on there plate than ever.

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I was referring to this sentence only:

In a highly competitive series, such as CART in the 90s, Penske chassis struggled

that's the wrong statement, Penske struggled only in 98 and 99 and by that time CART started to descend so it wasn't as highly competitive as between 93 and 97 whan they clearly were the front runners.

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Penske only got lucky in Indy '94 because of a more powerful engine. The following year they couldn't get their own chassis up to speed, so borrowed a Reynard and couldn't get that up to speed. One year can change your season. Look at F1 the past few years. Ferrari, dominant in 2004 got slapped in 2005, Renault, winners in 2005 and 2006 couldn't hit the front in 2007.

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

that's the wrong statement, Penske struggled only in 98 and 99 and by that time CART started to descend so it wasn't as highly competitive as between 93 and 97 whan they clearly were the front runners.

CART started to descend in the late 90s? Most people, including myself, include that as one of the Golden Eras. The first major team to leave CART was Ganassi/Penske in 2002, so to consider 98 and 99 a decline is somewhat unusual. The decline only arrived after Gerry, Kevin and Paul took over. And they don't know there elbows from there @#$%&.

And Penske struggled with there own cars after 94. They lost the edge and then never regained it, and only managed to fight for championships after that when they dumped there own designs. As I keep saying, there is no real reason for Penske to want to design cars for a series which would be that costly to be part of. There offer to build IRL cars only came because the IRL cars of the time were simple, and Penskes resources could easily produce something better. However that area of the team has been spread out to the many new operations they have taken up since that offer. To build an IRL Chassis would require them to be able to sell it to other teams on demand too - something they were not big on come the late 90s.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 10:44AM by DaveEllis.

Well to be precise decline started in 1996 when they split. Admit it or not Indy 500 was at least 33% of the whole series it was far more than just one race. And they lost Foyt's team and a bunch of others that competed only in Indy500 like Menards, I'm not saying those team were the main strenght of Indycars, no they were far from that, but they were patr of Indycar tradition.

I'm not saying that IRL was better than cart in 1996. No, I'm just saying that by losing Indy 500 and a few teams they lost in qualiti of the series and I consider it a decline. But they were still far ahead of IRL at that point. But that is when the process begun. A process that ended with CCWS a championship of questionable quality that we have today. But it didn't happen overnight neither it happened when Penske and Ganassi joined IRL. It was a slow process that lasted a whole decade.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 01:07PM by red 5.

from cart.com

Paul tracy in 1997

Experienced a season of extremes, winning consecutive events at Nazareth, Rio de Janeiro and St. Louis, respectively, to take the points lead, then finishing 26th or worse in each of the final five events to slip to fifth place in the championship

I had forgotten about that. 1993 he should have won it, was only down to him being his usual over aggressive self that he lost. I was watching a review and paul dominated a few races where he crashed out of, most note worthy phoenix, and Mid ohio.

red 5 Wrote:
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> Well to be precise decline started in 1996 when
> they split. Admit it or not Indy 500 was at least
> 33% of the whole series it was far more than just
> one race.

Certainly in America, but I'd argue that to everyone else it depends on what you watch the racing for. It was nothing more than jewel in the crown for me, as Monaco, Monza, Suzuka and Spa are for F1. It is/was just another race for me, albeit with a rather large prize.

It was nothing more than jewel in the crown for me, as Monaco, Monza, Suzuka and Spa are for F1.

great argument, but in my favour actually. You can not name ONE event that is as important to F1 as Indy 500 was to Indycar. You have to name several, and that is what makes them just one of 16.

You can not name Monaco because you will be naming event that Jim Clark decided to avoid just to travell to America. To do what? To race at Indy 500. Ok this was maybe too hard. But when a jouranlist asked Mario Andretti before the season start if he could choose between winning Indy 500 and Championship, what would he choose? Mario said; I can not tell you. Journalist asked why? and Mario replied; because I have to think about it, and when I'm done with thinking, you will be long gone. for me this sums it up. If you ask any current or past F1 driver to choose from championship and Monaco, I doubt they will have any second thought.

If you name Spa you will name race that was replaced by Nivelles and later by Zolder and even boycoted one time.

Suzuka had too short history to be in the range of Indy 500.

Than you have Monza, but you also have Silverstone, Hockenheim , old Nurburgring, you can name at least 10 classic events, but none of it sticks out from other events like Indy 500 sticked out.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 03:47PM by red 5.

You can not name Monaco because you will be naming event that Jim Clark decided to avoid just to travell to America. To do what? To race at Indy 500.

1960s cannot be compared to 1990s. That is ridiculous. If you want to look at it like that, currently ANY NASCAR Race is higher than the Indy 500 - afterall NASCAR did just take Hornish and Franchitti from IRL.

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