rFactor Screenies.

haha!
that is a nice car, now we know where tyrell stole their nose idea :p

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> haha!
> that is a nice car, now we know where tyrell stole
> their nose idea :p

Yeah, they bought a time machine and advanced 2 years before returning to '97 with their stolen ideas. :P

Interesting how Penske fell apart. Swift had a similar number of cars in '97 and only the 1 more in '98 and were able to build quicker and more reliable cars. Penske, known for being up the front each year and compared to even Newman-Hass were armed with a comparatively massive budget, suddenly stopped being able to do anything right. Anyone know why? I know Dave and the crew are/were working on a '98 mod/game so you've probably researched this era a hell of a lot. Was it something as simple as a change of design team which never worked out? Allocating resources to other projects?

Oh, its from 1999, looked a little older than to me

Anyway, thats what the new IRL cars should look like! not the silly toy looking car atm. Next years Calender is not too bad so things easing into a more neutral season of road and oval courses lets just hope the future brings road america!!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Well the PC-27 was meant to be introduced in 1997, but it was eventually pushed back to 1998. It ran some races in 1999, but they moved to a Lola chassis because of the performance and reliability.

Penske, known for being up the front each year and compared to even Newman-Hass were armed with a comparatively massive budget, suddenly stopped being able to do anything right. Anyone know why? I know Dave and the crew are/were working on a '98 mod/game so you've probably researched this era a hell of a lot. Was it something as simple as a change of design team which never worked out? Allocating resources to other projects?

Well the Penske wasn't really that bad, it was just everything else was that good. The late 90s Reynard series of chassis were brilliant. They weren't necessarily the fastest over 1 lap, but over a race distance they were the best car you could imagine. Stable, predictable and fast. The PC-27 by comparison was not.

Then look at the 3rd party equipment which Penske was using. Mercedes engines and Goodyear tyres? If you wanted to get anywhere in the late 90s, you needed a Honda engine. Mercedes wasn't bad, but look at the mid-late 90s. It's Honda dominated. And Goodyear tyres? Why did they stick with Goodyear for so long? They had less grip, took longer to heat up (no tyre warmers remember) and wore out much faster than the Firestones. There was no advantage to them, and the Firestone teams drove off into the distance - especially on out laps, where Goodyear shod cars would often lose a second or more a lap.

Penske switched partially to the Lola chassis in 1999, which was a step forward. It was a new chassis which was track tested during 1998 with Davis Racing, and it was quite a good chassis. But they bolted a Mercedes engine in the back, and Goodyear tyres on the suspension and it wasn't as good as it should have been.

And then came 2000. Ganassi switched to Lola, which proved fast, but problematic. Penske made the opposite move and switched to Honda engines, Firestone tyres and a Reynard chassis, which lead to them winning the Championship. The 3rd party equipment isn't given enough credit IMO. The 98 Penske PC-27 chassis wasn't as bad as people think (not saying it was good), but when you fit Goodyears and a Mercedes engine to an "average" chassis, you won't get good results.

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btw, we're still planning on an rFactor mod for CART98. But most of it has been redone several times. We scrapped a lot of stuff we aren't happy with and redid it as we all learnt new ways of doing things. It's been expanded to several seasons worth too, and we've brought on some good, well known people for physics, sounds and texture work.

It'll never be a game since CART is dead and nobody owns the rights to it, which means individual licenses for every tiny logo, every circuit and every team. F**k that, not even going to bother trying. We (RLD) have other things that could be sold anyway, CART is just for fun.

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The late 90's weren't Honda dominated when you look at the bigger picture though. They had the most powerful engine through the range, but Merc had them beat at power:weight and fuel economy and Ford were just about on par with them (NH in particular and Andretti made some woeful choices and had some poor reliability the last few years). Goodyear were poor in mid-late '97, but in early '98 they were stronger than Firestone.

Don't forget, in '98 Pac-west and Greg Moore had Merc power, and Newman-Haas had Goodyear. Certainly separately they weren't poor. Ganassi weren't exactly running away with things, other than some inspired come-back drives from Zanardi.*

I think it was Indy '95 where no Penske managed to qualify. I guess looking back, that was when it started to become clear they'd lost their edge. They even reverted to borrowing a Lola from Bobby Rahal in an attempt to qualify it out of pure desperation (and failed). We all expected them to bounce back, as Penske did, but other than a couple of good drives, and a rather low-key hat-trick from Tracy, it never happened.

* Is it just me who thinks, looking back, that Zanardi wasn't that great? He was awesome to watch, but he only really shone when the odds were against him - usually after he'd made a mistake.

The late 90's weren't Honda dominated when you look at the bigger picture though.

mmm, I'm not so sure. They entered in 1996 and won every year until 2002, when Toyota finally got the win, but Honda had already announced they were leaving CART and developing a naturally aspirated Indy engine by that point. And if you look at 1998 specificly, the top 3 cars were Hondas, despite the problems Team Green had early on, with an awesome performance by Fernandez managing to get 4th.

I don't think the Mercedes engine was anywhere near as good as people give it credit for in all honesty. It seemed flatter and a bit duller on ovals, as if it was revving lower than the others.

I certainly disagree about Goodyear being good at the start of the year. Fittipaldi was quoted as saying the time the Goodyears took to get up to temperature was "stupid". The outlaps say it all. They had to rely on drivers like Andretti managing to claw back the difference, where as others like de Ferran and Helio struggled. Newman Haas made there engine/tyre combination look better than it was as the Swift was much more nimble than the Reynard, but the downside being it was much harder to drive - not really a problem for the likes of Andretti, but the difficulty of the Swift lead to Della Penna swapping to a Reynard for 1999, and Robby Gordon dropping the Swift for an Eagle.

Don't forget, in '98 Pac-west and Greg Moore had Merc power, and Newman-Haas had Goodyear. Certainly separately they weren't poor. Ganassi weren't exactly running away with things, other than some inspired come-back drives from Zanardi.*

Well I wouldn't say Moore set the world on fire either, and Pac-West certainly didn't in 1998. Moore is often looked upon with rose tinted glasses due to his death. He was a great driver, but he also made some moronic errors and had spins and offs that would shame a rookie. His dive-bomb at Portland and his refusal to take the blame for it was just daft. Guggles and Blundell were 15th and 18th in the championship standings, and although Mark got the lucky win in 1997, I wouldn't call them anything better than "low-mid-field runners" The only teams they consistently beat were Payton Coyne, Davis Racing, and the part-timers.

I'd say Ganassi fairly ran away with in 1998.

Zanardi - 285
Vasser - 169
Franchitti - 160

7 wins from 19 races in a series which runs customer cars, with a team mate like Vasser is pretty dominant IMO. Other than Franchitti, who was in his second year of open wheel racing, and Fernandez, who was awesome in 98, Zanardi scored double the points of any non-Ganassi driver.

* Is it just me who thinks, looking back, that Zanardi wasn't that great? He was awesome to watch, but he only really shone when the odds were against him - usually after he'd made a mistake.

Well that depends how you look at it. Even on his off days, when he was making errors, he was still considerably better than most drivers on the grid, and when those drivers are people like Vasser, Andretti, Fittipaldi and Unser, you know you're doing something right. I don't think he was as great as some people made him out to be, but on his day, he was unstoppable, and he had quite a lot of good days. But then again, Moore gets rated as one of the greats, and he made far more mistakes than Zanardi did.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> mmm, I'm not so sure. They entered in 1996 and won
> every year until 2002, when Toyota finally got the
> win, but Honda had already announced they were
> leaving CART and developing a naturally aspirated
> Indy engine by that point. And if you look at 1998
> specificly, the top 3 cars were Hondas, despite
> the problems Team Green had early on, with an
> awesome performance by Fernandez managing to get
> 4th.

They entered in 1993 and did a Toyota. They were utterly hopeless for a few season.

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think the Mercedes engine was anywhere
> near as good as people give it credit for in all
> honesty. It seemed flatter and a bit duller on
> ovals, as if it was revving lower than the
> others.

Probably not, but it wasn't as bad as Penske showed it to be.

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I certainly disagree about Goodyear being good at
> the start of the year. Fittipaldi was quoted as
> saying the time the Goodyears took to get up to
> temperature was "stupid". The outlaps say it all.
> They had to rely on drivers like Andretti managing
> to claw back the difference, where as others like
> de Ferran and Helio struggled. Newman Haas made
> there engine/tyre combination look better than it
> was as the Swift was much more nimble than the
> Reynard, but the downside being it was much harder
> to drive - not really a problem for the likes of
> Andretti, but the difficulty of the Swift lead to
> Della Penna swapping to a Reynard for 1999, and
> Robby Gordon dropping the Swift for an Eagle.

As good as Andretti was in qualifying (and I'm still a bit 'meh' there) I'm sure Herta would have something to say about the one lap performance. Even de Ferran was strong until the latter half of '98.


They dominated all the opening races, only for fortune to go against them and a Firestone car to come through and win. No doubt Firestone had the tyre to be on, but Goodyear had a much better 1998 (first half anyway) than they had 1997, despite what the results say.

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well I wouldn't say Moore set the world on fire
> either, and Pac-West certainly didn't in 1998.
> Moore is often looked upon with rose tinted
> glasses due to his death. He was a great driver,
> but he also made some moronic errors and had spins
> and offs that would shame a rookie. His dive-bomb
> at Portland and his refusal to take the blame for
> it was just daft. Guggles and Blundell were 15th
> and 18th in the championship standings, and
> although Mark got the lucky win in 1997, I
> wouldn't call them anything better than
> "low-mid-field runners" The only teams they
> consistently beat were Payton Coyne, Davis Racing,
> and the part-timers.

I think if you watch the '97 races again, you'll see just how good Pac-west were. They were never going to be consistent front-runners, and they made a critical error of judgement at the beginning of the '98 season, but they were very strong in '97, from 1/4 of the season to the end. Only Zanardi was stronger.

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> * Is it just me who thinks, looking back, that
>> Zanardi wasn't that great? He was awesome to
>> watch, but he only really shone when the odds were
>> against him - usually after he'd made a mistake.

> Well that depends how you look at it. Even on his
> off days, when he was making errors, he was still
> considerably better than most drivers on the grid,
> and when those drivers are people like Vasser,
> Andretti, Fittipaldi and Unser, you know you're
> doing something right. I don't think he was as
> great as some people made him out to be, but on
> his day, he was unstoppable, and he had quite a
> lot of good days. But then again, Moore gets rated
> as one of the greats, and he made far more
> mistakes than Zanardi did.

Better? Hmm. Quicker, yes. Better, not so sure. In '97 he made it despite some very lukewarm performances (I'd argue he was gifted it by Penske and Tracy). He was barely average in the first 1/3 of the year. In '98 he wasn't exactly pushed - all the rival teams were either in inception at the front or were on the decline. Only the Players team were capable of consistently challenging, and Moore was relatively crap early on and Carpentier was like a poor imitation of Fisichella. Kool Green had only started looking towards the front.

In my opinion, Zanardi's reputation comes from his fighting mentality - something he's shown so much since 2001 - and not from pure skill. He's the sort of guy I love to watch and admire, but you can see why Montoya succeeded in CART and where he failed in F1, for similar reasons. Toronto '97 was epic, despite his continual mistakes. It's everything I want in a race, and hard to go against Zanardi, even taking the errors into account, but it's not to say he was the best driver.

Jr. I never did rate for some reason. He was excellent in a race, but I could never be sure how much of it was down to the car. He was OK at best in the Galles car in the '90s and when he went to Penske he was fine so long as he had a great car. But he could never qualify or make a decisive move. If Coulthard made the move to CART, this is what he'd have been like. Any move he did make had to be nailed on, and while it's appreciable in itself, you only have to look at Michael Andretti in a similar era to see how it should be done (Nazareth '98 excluded!).

totally forgot about CTDP!
Hows it progressing Karan?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet you'll have to check the devblog for the latest, but my guess is around 85% and a month or so away.

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They entered in 1993 and did a Toyota. They were utterly hopeless for a few season.

Whoops, got the year wrong. But still, it took them what, a couple of years to produce a top class engine and then dominate until the day they decided to leave?

They dominated all the opening races, only for fortune to go against them and a Firestone car to come through and win. No doubt Firestone had the tyre to be on, but Goodyear had a much better 1998 (first half anyway) than they had 1997, despite what the results say.

I guess it is agree to disagree there.

I think if you watch the '97 races again, you'll see just how good Pac-west were. They were never going to be consistent front-runners, and they made a critical error of judgement at the beginning of the '98 season, but they were very strong in '97, from 1/4 of the season to the end. Only Zanardi was stronger.

Well I'm talking more about 1998 than anything else. Remember in 1997 they had the same package as 1998 - Reynard/Firestone/Mercedes , with Blunders and Googles at the wheel. They just dropped the ball and were seriously bad.

Anyway, on a more on topic post -

New tyres (materials/textures), updated rims and better, more realistic brakes.



We'll probably abandon the idea of doing a Demo for 98 and release Service Packs, similar to PrototypeC for F1C too.

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Karan Wrote:
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> chet you'll have to check the devblog for the
> latest, but my guess is around 85% and a month or
> so away.

Will this mod also contain a trackpack?

No, there won't be any trackpack. This is the feature list:


* 2006 high detail models and high resolution textures
* All special liveries throughout the season
* Both Midland and Spyker included
* Technical season upgrades for every grand prix
* Open and closed brakes (with glow)
* 2006 helmets and driver (individual talent files for AI)
* 2006 steering wheels, all redone and new
* 2006 physics and performance (upgrades influence handling)
* 2006 tyres and rims with motion blur
* Up to 9 tyre variants per track (very soft to very hard)
* Non-linear tyregrip and tyre damages through debris
* 6 Engine programms
* Realistic wear of motor and brake
* Realistic suspension model simulation (Single-keel, Twin-keel, No-keel, V-Keel)
* Setup-Package
* Menu-Sounds and Music by Lars J. Brouwer
* Full DX7, DX8 and DX9- Support
* Supports rFactor-Skinning-Feature (now with helmets and driversuit)
* Support for RealFeel
* TV-Style-Overlays for Dinix' Plugin
* Configuration Tool

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I always thought this version would include a revised version of the CTDP Bahrain ??

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Or that or separate release

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So there will be a CTDP UI folder... alrighty hmmmmm

Marko Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, there won't be any trackpack. This is the
> feature list:
>
>
> * 2006 high detail models and high resolution
> textures
> * All special liveries throughout the season
> * Both Midland and Spyker included
> * Technical season upgrades for every grand
> prix
> * Open and closed brakes (with glow)
> * 2006 helmets and driver (individual talent
> files for AI)
> * 2006 steering wheels, all redone and new
> * 2006 physics and performance (upgrades
> influence handling)
> * 2006 tyres and rims with motion blur
> * Up to 9 tyre variants per track (very soft
> to very hard)
> * Non-linear tyregrip and tyre damages through
> debris
> * 6 Engine programms
> * Realistic wear of motor and brake
> * Realistic suspension model simulation
> (Single-keel, Twin-keel, No-keel, V-Keel)
> * Setup-Package
> * Menu-Sounds and Music by Lars J. Brouwer
> * Full DX7, DX8 and DX9- Support
> * Supports rFactor-Skinning-Feature (now with
> helmets and driversuit)
> * Support for RealFeel
> * TV-Style-Overlays for Dinix' Plugin
> * Configuration Tool

Ah i see, thanks Marko

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2008 06:56PM by Karan.

"Massa and Alonso get bored of the current F1 cars so take up drifting :p"

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL