The UK General Election

danm Wrote:
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> You know what I thought might stop pointless
> voters? If only there was some sort of three
> question quiz when you voted.
>
> You know, if you can appropriately pick three of a
> list of three favourite various policies that are
> from the party you vote for (amongst a pool of
> other policies form other parties), then your vote
> would count. Easy to do, but just to prove a
> point.
>
> I can only think this would aid votes to the
> actual party, and would highlight the most popular
> reasons or something.
>
> It would also show where people might be voting
> for one party, yet not being able to identify with
> their exact policies.
>
> Which to me, is frankly a waste of a vote
> entirely!

Voting is an absolute right. Every opinion counts, even the stupid and uninformed. That is the entire point of democracy. Your authoritarian conviction really shines through here, because every dictator bases his rule on saying: "Your opinion does not count because *insert lame reason here*".

I completely disagree with you, I think you politically are a total numbnut and outright dangerous, but I would still go through many hardships for your right to express that, with your vote. That is the difference between you and me, democracy and dictatorship.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Muks_C Wrote:
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> for a power to definitively win the election, they
> have to win by a certain majority, they can't win
> by 1 or 2 seats, they have to won by 100-odd or
> something. if the 3 main parties all win a similar
> number of seats with no clear winner with a big
> enough gap to 2nd place, it's a "hung parliament"
> where no winner is declared. the 3rd place party
> then has the choice of forming an alliance with
> one of the 2 parties ahead of it, thus making that
> party the winner.

This is incorrect. Many countries in Europe operate perfectly fine with hung parliaments. The political process then becomes one of debate and compromise, which are core values in a democracy. Your voting system was one of the first, and hence reflects the difficulties of counting ballots in the early 18th century. Your House of Lords and House of Commons is also a reflection on your historical development. You did not trust the people to rule themselves, so you figured "we better have a House of proper people (read: aristocracy), to stop all the crazy things the commoners (read: lowlife scum) will dream up!". The exact same line of thought can be seen in US presidential elections, where winning a state, wins an elector, and the ELECTORS choose the president. In theory they DO have the power to pick a different president than the voters want... it just hasn't happened - yet.

You know, more modern democracies have dropped these outdated "safety valves against the will of the people" a long time ago

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Yeah actually.... un warranted face palm to be honest :P I'm certain that in previous general election days... my ballot card has had both parliamentary and local options.

To be honest, I only bother voting on general election day. I'm not fussed about the more regular local votes. Some of you may find that un-tasteful, that's your choice, it's also mine.

Not really morbid. Sure, in a democracy every vote counts, but when you are adding a vote 'for the sake of it' that is silly.

So much so, as an Australian, I am not so sure you know how our system works.

The leader can win on a swing of a paper thickness of around 300,000 to 400,000 votes.

That is a terrifyingly thin margin. So when you have all these people throwing random names into the hat with no reason or knowledge on what they are doing, you can change a very important outcome.

What I said wasn't dictatorly, it was merely trying to find a way to establish people who know what they are doing and those that are not.

If we let the randomness in, why not give the rest of the world the vote too. Let America, Bolivia, Easter Island have a say too on who wins here.

When the margin is so thin, things like this do matter. A lot!


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

I fairly certain that Morbid is not an Australian. And if he is... he certainly hides it with a Danish accent very well :P

My apologies! I was always under assumption he was Australian. I stand corrected!


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

You may be confusing Morbid with Mortal.

Though I may well be wrong in assuming Mortal is an Aussie. I've never met Mortal and I could be confusing him with someone else entirely. I've met Morbid a couple of times at Le Mans though, and he's very definitely un Australian mate!.

Yes really danm.

I know how Australia works. You are bitching about this, Section 245 of the Electoral Act:

Quote

It shall be the duty of every elector to vote at each election... The Electoral Commissioner must, after polling day at each election, prepare for each Division a list of the names and addresses of the electors who appear to have failed to vote at the election.

People have to vote, and it is a requirement and failure is punishable by law.

If you really resent this so much, you might want to try some of the more established and well founded lines of disagreement that have been presented against it, for instance the debate of whether or not a voter can be held obligated by a result harvested through compulsory voting. That is still within the framework of democracy, whereas your arguments are not!

Adding a vote for the sake of it, can seems silly to you, but that is the price YOU pay to have YOUR freedoms. You allow other people THEIRS based on POLITICAL EQUALITY. Freedom for Thor as well as for Loki, as we say here in the north.

Otherwise, I am free to gain power, and push you around as I see fit. Your opinion doesn't count, because I think you are a numbnut, and if you resist, I can @#$%& up your life as well as your body, with the might of the state apparatus, remember? I will leave you in the hospital without proper care, crippled for life, because you don't do, what I think you should be doing. That will teach you.

Yeah... @#$%& off with your fascist bullshit!

Digressing slightly, I will do a reversal on you, just to feed you your own bullshit. I don't think you know how our system works! We have some 3 million voters. Elections are often decided by a few thousand and sometimes hundreds of votes, and rarely even a single vote. And amazingly, it still works! Imagine that...

One of the reasons, is that we do not operate with a winner takes all system, like you do.

This winner takes all system, like in America, is a remnant of the difficulties of collating large numbers of votes by hand, registering them with pen and paper, and sending the results by horseback. Obviously, it is very difficult to secure accuracy and authenticity. Those problems where solved with the advent of the telegraph! We have embraced that, and using a nifty device called a computer, we can quickly and accurately register all votes after the voting action has come to an end. By way of the internetz, we send that information to a central computer, which in turn points out several winners in each voting district. Thus the actual votes cast are more accurately represented in the election outcome.

Winner takes all is not needed any more! Update your system guys. It is outdated by at least 150 years!

Returning to the main line of thought: I am in opposition to my government, and have been for close to 10 years now. I think they are morons and I despise their right wing elitism - although you would love it, danm! But as much as I resent them, I would rather have that, than your preferences!

What you said is dictatorial and fascist, especially the notion in a previous post - of a national strength in a framework global competition based on Social Darwinism - is fascist. You are a fascist. You just don't want to accept it.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

gotta say, i love the lack of interest around here. If i hadn't recieved my polling card (and been in London when the election was announced) i would have had no idea there even was an election. Ah well, first and last time i'll be voting (will have emigrated by the time the next election comes around)

Edit: Here being Loughborough, in the midlands

_______________________________________________________

Team Japan Owner - GPGNC




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2010 02:18PM by harjinator.

Yeah, I mean the newspapers and the news channels haven't even mentioned it....

Guess that means I have some fascist views! Doesn't bother me how I am labelled, it is something that really grinds me. I just wish people that didn't try were punished for it. But there are just too many loopholes where we are forced to look out for others at any cost; even if they have no hope in hell of helping back at any point in their lives. That shouldn't be allowed in my view. It devalues the point in working hard for the better of the future.

If everyone lived for now and not tomorrow, there wouldn't be a tomorrow.

If there was a government that merges some of Lib Dem policies with those of Conservatives, this country would work brilliantly. Some Conservative policies are rather extreme, and I don't agree with them. The same that I love some of the Lib Dem ones.

But overall, there are too many from the Lib Dems that I don't want, and more from the Conservatives that I do. Overall, that is how I am swung. I am not hot headed voting Tory just because.

Just fingers crossed the Conservatives win tomorrow. Lib Dems a close second, and Labour triumphantly fail in third.

And in four years with some correction by the Conservatives, a nice fight between them and the Lib Dems.

We will see, I warmed a lot today at the idea of a hung parliament where the Lib Dems got to influence things a little. Kinda exciting, but dangerous at the same time.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

I don't think not voting should be punishable by law. It's out of choice. Now, I have a bit of interest in politics, but I am not going to vote or get involved with it until I have been pissed off enough. I am not at an age where I can vote, so that doesn't bother me. What does bother me
is the rise of parties like UKIP and the BNP. UKIP wants to remove our freedom to visit countries without arsing about with visas and work permits, and they've also made an example of Greece to why they don't want the Euro.

The BNP worry me too. They've really got into the heads of the 'less intelligent' people with the ostentatious claims that immigration is a bad thing, and migrant citizens take jobs off of British nationals. This is not the case at all. The people that complain that jobs are being taken are usually the ones that sit around on their arses all day watching Jeremy Kyle instead of working. Usually, migrant workers are much more willing to work and earn their money. And they then pay tax. Which goes into benefits. So the immigration policy? In my view thinly disguised racism.

I'm sorry if I have tarred everyone with the same brush, or if I've offended anyone, but I am expressing my distaste for the UK's political system and the allowance of such parties. I want to emigrate after i've done uni, and I don't care where.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

I just wish people that didn't try were punished for it.

We all want that. But the answer is not to punish everybody by using a simple system that even a child could come up with.

Person 1: "Some people are abusing the system"
Person 2: "Well lets give them less money so it gives less benefit"
Person 1: "Doesn't that screw the people who actually try?"
Person 2: "Worth it to catch them damn leechers!

A Grown up and sensible way to approach the system is recognise it is broken and attempt to fix it, rather than simply screw everybody in order to punish the minority. And I don't give a f**k what the papers say - it is a minority. Re-work the system and put measure in to police it correctly. This idea of screwing everybody is the exact same mentality which has gotten security cameras on street corners and ridiculous 'safety' measures in airports. It is ridiculous and it goes to ridiculous lengths.

Of course the irony with the Tories is that when it comes to taxes and benefits, the upper class stand to benefit more than the lower class. Not only will it lengthen the gap between the classes, but it goes on the assumption that only the lower class abuse the benefits system and that the upper class all play everything by the book - and of course we only need to look at MPs expenses to see that this is bullsh*t of the highest order. Even the legitimate expenses which have been claimed are absolutely insane.

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Covfan Wrote:
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> Jim may have been referring to the local council
> elections that are also taking place in some wards
> on election day.


same here, i've had local council and general election postal ballot papers, neither said Brown, Clegg, Cameron et al.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Muks_C Wrote:
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> Covfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jim may have been referring to the local
> council
> > elections that are also taking place in some
> wards
> > on election day.
>
>
> same here, i've had local council and general
> election postal ballot papers, neither said Brown,
> Clegg, Cameron et al.

Exactly why the election is confusing to a lot of people. If they want more people to vote then the system has to be easier to understand, because currently if you don't take an active view of politics then you have *no* idea in the slightest what's happening.

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One of the children in my class today asked me if I was voting for Brown, Cameron or Clegg. I tried explaining that I wasn't voting for any of them, that I was voting for a local candidate who belonged to the same party, who would then contribute to the make-up of Parliament to decide the eventual Prime Minister... I gave up in the end.

By the time these youngsters are of voting age, it would do everyone the world of good to have an elected President instead of a party government.

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K*bots UK, specialist providers of 'fun science' Curriculum Enhancement days for Primary and Secondary schools in Britain.
Please find us on [en.wikipedia.org] for more information.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2010 08:37PM by Locke Cole.

Dave has awesome points.

I have to take a slice of humble pie on my previous rants, because they are very extreme. I take hand on heart and admit that they are somewhat ludicrous.

But I have to lay blame on the my own situations to justify the angle I came in at. I agree that punishing everyone isn't the right approach, but it does sometimes feel like it should! And no, not everyone is the baddie. Again, it just seems that way.

I grew up on the outskirts of two quite big towns in between a place called Watford and Luton, north of London. For those not aware, Luton is notorious for being one of the worst places in the UK. Heck, it was mentioned in this forum, via a quote.

I then moved to University to Portsmouth, another craphole of this country that has also featured on scummy lists in recent years.

So needless to say, having come from a relatively middle class family that have all worked and then watching as people around me got healthier lifestyles than myself by doing a lot less is very agitating. Not one member of my family up to the great grandparents has been on benefit job seekers money. Sure, luck in recessions has some part. But when nobody in my family has been there, we hold very hostile views when we see people parading around with new clothes and gadgets and brand new council houses whilst I am struggling to fund myself to do further studies at uni.

You have to see I have a reason to be extremely pi$$ed with how it isn't favouring anything my family stand for and the others in the same boat.

Doesn't justify my ridiculous rants, but it shows why I would try and preach that way. If that makes sense.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

To be honest Dan, my family are in the same boat. I won't add any further anecdotes because you've summed them up pretty succinctly. I can fully appreciate why you'd be voting Conservative for those reasons. For me, however, I just don't reckon the Tories will be enough of a "fix" to the system. Lib Dems have some wackier policies, particularly re. income tax, but they make more sense to me in the long run.

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K*bots UK, specialist providers of 'fun science' Curriculum Enhancement days for Primary and Secondary schools in Britain.
Please find us on [en.wikipedia.org] for more information.

Good that you took the time to think things over, danm. You might be bit suprised by this, but if you pay some attention to your surroundings, you would find that you are probably far from alone. It is a well known sociological rule of thumb, that exposure to injustice, poverty and humiliation leads to extremists positions. The reason being that it makes people angry. Unfortunately anger will never bring you prosperity. The key is very different.

I offer you a video. It is very basic... almost simplistic. If you can understand this, and even more implement it in your life, you and your family will never want again.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Luton is a bit of a hole, but let's face it, there are places far worse off.