2011 Singapore GP **SPOILERS**

I don't want to deny Massa the right to be frustrated. But if he had spent just half the time, pondering his own racing instead of Hamilton's, he would not be in this situation. Alonso has more than double the points of Massa. That should be his primary concern.

Quote
Massa
He could have caused a big accident. He touched my wheel on a straight — 300 kph, and he punctured my tyres, so he destroyed my race.

On the straight? 300 kph? Now he is just clearly lying to damage Hamilton. That does not flatter Massa at all.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 06:28PM by Morbid.

Well, what can be said? Vettel is getting more and more like MSC (in his 2001-2004 version), the first four or five laps he got a horrifying advantage, and well, this year he really deserves the title.

As for Massa/Hamilton, not the first time the guy doesn't realise how to overtake a Ferrari properly, and although he was given a penalty, that didn't work, he shoot away from Massa while he had nothing better to take than 9th. I'm not saying that he has to be penalised again just because he finished far ahead of Massa, but that makes you feel that he did what he wanted in the way he wanted. And that continues with the infinite bad luck Massa has had this season, with races being ruined by his mechanics (E.g.: Silverstone) or by another drivers (E.g.: this one and Monaco). Of course, he has ruined his races himself, take the case of Spa, where he couldn't overtake an obviously slower Rosberg.

And Perez/Schumacher, well... WTF was that?



Stats: 139 Starts / 7 Wins / 9 Poles / 5 Fastest laps

Morbid Wrote:
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> I don't want to deny Massa the right to be
> frustrated. But if he had spent just half the
> time, pondering his own racing instead of
> Hamilton's, he would not be in this situation.
> Alonso has more than double the points of Massa.
> That should be his primary concern.

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think he spends his weeks between races pondering Hamilton or anything, but at the end of a race ruined by Hamilton, of course he's going to talk about him. It's not easy to get points if you get hit.

On the other hand, we should also consider the impact of Button on Hamilton just as we do with Alonso on Massa.

> He could have caused a big accident. He touched my
> wheel on a straight — 300 kph, and he punctured
> my tyres, so he destroyed my race.
>
> On the straight? 300 kph? Now he is just clearly
> lying to damage Hamilton. That does not flatter
> Massa at all.

Can you please tell me where you found that, Massa never said that in his BBC interview.

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X (@ed24f1)

SchueyFan Wrote:
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> I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think he
> spends his weeks between races pondering Hamilton
> or anything, but at the end of a race ruined by
> Hamilton, of course he's going to talk about him.
> It's not easy to get points if you get hit.

Massa has been all over Hamilton this year. IMHO Massa took himself out at Monaco, as has been previously discussed, and I presented evidence for in the relevant thread. My point being, if you are being hammered by your team mate, you should be thinking about how to up your game, instead of what everybody else should be doing. Massa has 84 points compared to Alonso's 184.

Alonso has 120+% more points than Massa. That is hardly Hamilton's fault. Even if Hamilton was thrown out of F1, Massa would still be thoroughly trashed by Alonso. This is what Massa should be occupying his mind on. He has the right to be frustrated, but being frustrated and acting out in public, doing character assassinations, and causing a scene in public is hardly the way to deal with the very REAL challenges that he faces. On the contrary, this will detract from his ability to drive faster. Digging is not the way out of a deep hole.

> On the other hand, we should also consider the
> impact of Button on Hamilton just as we do with
> Alonso on Massa.

I am very impressed that Button has beaten Hamilton at McLaren. At the start of the season, it seemed like an impossible task. He deserves much praise for his campaign this season. However, the gap is not more than 185 to 168, or roughly 10%. That doesn't even compare to the beating Massa is taking at Ferrari.

> Can you please tell me where you found that, Massa
> never said that in his BBC interview.

Sure. You can find the quote at a couple of sites. Some would be

[www.yallaf1.com]
or
[au.oztips.yahoo.com]
or
[www.deccanherald.com]

The original source though is Reuters News Bureau.

[uk.reuters.com]

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 07:45PM by Morbid.

That IMHO fits very well with your reasoning for punishing Hamilton.

For me it doesn't fit well since Webber put himself in an impossible position, attempting a pass which was always going to end in an accident. By using the argument of Webber being a few cm ahead in the braking zone as justification for right of way, you can use Massa being ahead a few cm by just after the apex as justification for the right of way, and therefore what he did was fine. By the time contact was made, Webber was significantly behind Massa through taking a longer line, not through Massas driving (which was something Webber would have known, going around the outside).

In todays case, Massa and Lewis did not put each other in a dangerous or compromising position. Massa left room on the right hand side, and Lewis did not squeeze Massa. The contact was not a racing incident because Lewis was not attempting to pass him by that point - the move had already failed. He was attempting to get back in behind him and misjudged the gap between the cars (and it isn't the first time that Lewis has done that). It was not a result of 2 drivers racing, it was a result of one driver making a mistake and his mistake screwed another driver more than it did himself.

That is my opinion and I won't discuss that point any further.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> That is my opinion and I won't discuss that point
> any further.

Sure. Do know however, that the only way you reached this point, was by twisting my words and intentions into something I never expressed, and using principles that I seriously doubt you really subscribe to.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 08:50PM by Morbid.

Doh! Hamilton making the headlines for the wrong reasons again. I think all you can say about that is that he got it wrong and made a mistake, penalty was borderline but justified, he did fairly well to recover upto 5th though.

There were 3 drivers who stood out for me today. Vettel obviously is in a league of his own and this was yet another virtuoso win, the combination of him Red Bull and Adrian Newy reallly is unbeatable at the moment, they're getting everything spot on (except Webber).

Another mature and strong result by Button, he pace was probably slightly more I than expected from him given the lameness of his Friday, yet he has a habit of being excellent on race day and thankfully he hasn't kicked that just yet.

A very very good drive by Di Resta as well, caned Sutil despite being on what was supposed to be the slower tyre. In my view it was a performance worthy of the podium, it's just a shame that the Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari were simply untouchable here.

I think most people would have predicted that Webber would have a lame start, and as usual he didn't disappoint. He did well to put a move on Alonso twice, but should not have been behind him inn the first place. He was fortuate that the safety car gave him the opportunity to close on Button. I felt that he really should have been able to push Button harder, the final pitstop seemed like Red Bull rolling the dice because Button had pegged him back at that point. It was a move that should have given him some more impetus, yet he simply dropped off the radar which for simply underlines that Vettel and Button have been the class of the field recently.

Not quite the vintage Alonso Singapore performance I would have expected. I think the Ferrari was simply too hard on it's tyres and even Alonso struggled for consistency.

Mercedes in the thick of the wheel to wheel action again. I thought Nico was rather naughty today, the first lap move was perhaps excusable, but he nearly drove Perez off the track later on and I think that was in ways more questionable than Schumacher's tactics at Monza. As for Schumacher himself, he seemed rather better behaved, he neatly avoided replicating his accident with Kobayashi from last year but was perhapps a tad too optimistic with his failed move on Perez. What ever it seems to be a Schumacher tradition to hit as many Saubers as possible.

Also... Wtf was up with Petrov?

The final nail in the coffin, Webber vs Hamilton last year in the same corner. Almost carbon copy incident, although Hamilton was in front at all times, and was the one left suffering from the incident. Yet that wasn't even investigated.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
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> The final nail in the coffin, Webber vs Hamilton
> last year in the same corner. Almost carbon copy
> incident, although Hamilton was in front at all
> times, and was the one left suffering from the
> incident. Yet that wasn't even investigated.
>


Really? Almost a carbon copy? I'd say webber being a little too close to Hamilton through the corner when they both turned in is quite different from Hamilton mistakenly turning into Massa's back wheel from the outside.
My opinion on the Massa-Hamilton issue is not of particular relevance though.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 10:28PM by Robert.

0:20 secs..

Kubica executing that overtake the way it was supposed to be.. giving enough space to your rival... pause the videos and check the front left tyre and the distance to the kerb... Kubica gave Sutil room knowing he was still there, Hamilton didn't... can't blame Webber for that

for me the Hamilton/Massa incident was totally Hamilton's fault... Massa raced him fair and gave him space, outbroke him to the corner and then recieved a hit from behind...


J i m Wrote:
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I thought Nico was rather naughty today,
> the first lap move was perhaps excusable, but he
> nearly drove Perez off the track later on and I
> think that was in ways more questionable than
> Schumacher's tactics at Monza.

noticed it too.. Schumi got away with it in Monza, but i doubt people will create as much drama for Rosberg as they did to Schumacher... after all, he only did it to a Sauber driver.. a mexican driver..

it'll be interesting to see what would've been said had it been a Mexican steward there and Mexican commentators as well

Please point out to me, where I say that Hamilton was not at fault? Please point out to me, where I said Massa was at fault? Surely, you can't because what I said was:

Quote
Morbid
As for the Hamilton/Massa incident, I knew it was going to go bad even before they pitted. But I have a hard time seeing why that warranted a penalty.

Furthermore, Perez (yes the mexican) had 3 collisions in this race. Webber did a carbon copy of the Massa/Hamilton accident to Glock in Turn 22 in FP1. He categorized that as "a small incident", even though it had the exact same outcome (puncture/broken wing) at an even faster speed. I don't see anyone going nuts over that. I don't see anyone riding Perez's case. I don't see Glock pushing Webber around in an agitated state in front of the press, claiming that he is dangerous and unable to think.

Get some perspective.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
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> Please point out to me, where I say that Hamilton
> was not at fault? Please point out to me, where I
> said Massa was at fault? Surely, you can't because
> what I said was:
>

no m8, i wasn't directing my comments to you, actually the first think i tought when they penalised Hamilton was that it was a racing incident and it could've been passed as that.. but if they really wanted to penalise someone would have to be Hamilton... it was unfurtonate for Felipe, but is common sense Hamilton doesn't want to break his wing on purpose regardless of who's in front

but yeah like i said i guess the stewarts argue that Hamilton caused a colision and compromised Felipe's race, whereas Hamilton "got away" with it

but yeah regardless of the penalty, Massa was going to be furious anyway, and Hamilton was going to recieve criticism

> Furthermore, Perez (yes the mexican) had 3
> collisions in this race.

not arguing that at all

> Webber did a carbon copy
> of the Massa/Hamilton accident to Glock in Turn 22
> in FP1. He categorized that as "a small incident",
> even though it had the exact same outcome
> (puncture/broken wing) at an even faster speed. I
> don't see anyone going nuts over that.

it was in a competitive environement, but not under racing circumstances... they where not racing for positions

> I don't see Glock
> pushing Webber around in an agitated state in
> front of the press, claiming that he is dangerous
> and unable to think.

it's a normal reaction from latin drivers, they tend to be more explosive, we see it all the time with Alonso, Montoya, Fisichella, Barrichello... nothing new to me, not getting dramatic over that

> Get some perspective.

don't know what makes you think i got the wrong one, the whole point of this is sharing opinions and discussing them, not impossing one over the others

Slash Wrote:
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> it was in a competitive environement, but not
> under racing circumstances... they where not
> racing for positions

IMHO that makes it even worse. Why do something like that, when there is NOTHING at stake? While racing you are supposed to take chances, not so in practice.

> it's a normal reaction from latin drivers, they
> tend to be more explosive, we see it all the time
> with Alonso, Montoya, Fisichella, Barrichello...
> nothing new to me, not getting dramatic over that

Wait what, this is a case of genes now? You can use your race as an excuse..?? I thought that was the statement Hamilton was told off for by the stewards at Monaco.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 12:10AM by Morbid.

For me Lewis was 100% at fault but come on it was a silly accident with his brakes locked up he was trying to back out of the move it was no big deal why is mass making such a fuss about it. After the penalty Lewis was behind him yes Lewis finished 5th Massa 9th. Honestly we have seen that happen a number of times this year even mass has done it to people. Lewis did not try and hit massa he tried to avoid it

Crap race really boring DRS made it far to easy to pass people.

Ms got a telling off after the race, big deal.

Nico jumped the 1st corner got away with it.

Webber pulled off some great moves today.

But honest they can drop this race and I would not miss it.

Perez did a 1.56 lap behind the pace car, and wasn't penalized. Perez saved Nico from wrecking both of them, and Nico got away with it.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Will you guys please stop twisting each others words and getting each others' backs up?!

What happened happened, both then and now. Whatever we think about it doesn't have any bearing on anything whatsoever so why be so uptight about it? The point of a forum is to share opinions and discuss them, while appreciating different viewpoints and perspectives.

This place will start to resemble a Youtube comments page soon or worse, a Codemasters forum.


That is all.

Lewis on Massa was a pure brainfade and nothing more.

It did not require Massa to look like a child after the race though.

Massa is slow. Massa has been slow for a long time. He just seems to want to blame somebody else for it now. Sure, Lewis was at fault and deserved the penalty but let the FIA deal with it. If he's going to be a nob in front of the TV camera's at least make it worth while, or just don't bother and save it for the driver meeting or PC ala Trulli with pictures :p.

As far as the race went, Horner summed it up perfectly.

Button and Vettel a class above the rest, as has been for the last few races really.

Secondly, they desperately need to change the SC rules so that lapped cars DO NOT interfere. Sebastian had an 8 second lead by the time JB was able to clear the backmarkers. It was an utter joke and surely the FIA know this.

With regards to Webber's overtake on Alonso into the 'Singapore sling'. Best overtake ive seen in a while (maybe since his Eau Rouge move :p. Nominated for pass of the year IMO. BUT it was all down to the Torro Rosso being an absolute COCK to Alonso. Why the driver did not get a penalty I do not know, but that STR held Alonso up for far too long. The STR drivers are absolute @#$%& for it aswell. Its always them, and it cost Alonso big time. I was very surprised to not see/hear Alonso kick off about it after. A complete joke, some of these drivers were just utter tossers today with traffic. Kobayashi included.

Overall it was my favourite Singapore race for the obvious reason of Button being on top form again. I enjoy this circuit alot though, it did bring incident, it did bring overtaking, and it did bring some interesting results. Any circuit that is a challenge for the drivers physically and mentally is a good one. I love that its so difficult.

Onto Suzuka. It's only fitting that the best driver of the year should win the championship at the greatest circuit of all time. I think Suzuka should be a great race. Lewis should be in there, as should Alonso. And of course we can never count JB out. Looking at it now, I think we could see it being one of the closest races. RBR should destroy Mclaren through S1, not so much for Ferrari, but then Mclaren should make up all that time loss in S2 and mainly S3. Overall for race pace I think the three teams should be as close as they have been yet.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Slash Wrote:
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> it's a normal reaction from latin drivers, they
> tend to be more explosive, we see it all the time
> with Alonso, Montoya, Fisichella, Barrichello...
> nothing new to me, not getting dramatic over that

It's not a 'normal reaction', just look at the difference to Massa's reaction after Webber hit him at Monza.

He's angry because Hamilton's a repeat offender and doesn't seem to learn, show any remorse or any care for other drivers.

Morbid Wrote:
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> Furthermore, Perez (yes the mexican) had 3
> collisions in this race. Webber did a carbon copy
> of the Massa/Hamilton accident to Glock in Turn 22
> in FP1. He categorized that as "a small incident",
> even though it had the exact same outcome
> (puncture/broken wing) at an even faster speed. I
> don't see anyone going nuts over that. I don't see
> anyone riding Perez's case. I don't see Glock
> pushing Webber around in an agitated state in
> front of the press, claiming that he is dangerous
> and unable to think.
>
> Get some perspective.

Get some context! Of course something that happens in practice is going to be brushed over because there was nothing at stake. If you get impacted in the race or in qualifying, there's much more to lose.

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X (@ed24f1)

Quote
chet
Secondly, they desperately need to change the SC rules so that lapped cars DO NOT interfere. Sebastian had an 8 second lead by the time JB was able to clear the backmarkers. It was an utter joke and surely the FIA know this.

Yeah, but he had an 18 seconds lead before the safety car.

SchueyFan Wrote:
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> Get some context! Of course something that happens
> in practice is going to be brushed over because
> there was nothing at stake. If you get impacted in
> the race or in qualifying, there's much more to
> lose.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.