Canadian GP ***Spoilers***
Posted by chet
Morbid Wrote:
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> As far as I know, all this cursing, swearing,
> blaming and hand waving at slower cars, is the
> invention of Senna. Before him, other drivers
> understood that slower cars had a right to race
> too.
Watch Watkins Glen 1980 alone, specifically Reutemann v Piquet. You'll see Reutemann "doing a Senna" and gesticulating at Piquet to get out of his way when they were racing for position and all Piquet was doing "wrong" was defending the apexes of corners.
My point is that other drivers did this long before Senna; in fact he probably just observed others and decided to take it a bit further.
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> As far as I know, all this cursing, swearing,
> blaming and hand waving at slower cars, is the
> invention of Senna. Before him, other drivers
> understood that slower cars had a right to race
> too.
Watch Watkins Glen 1980 alone, specifically Reutemann v Piquet. You'll see Reutemann "doing a Senna" and gesticulating at Piquet to get out of his way when they were racing for position and all Piquet was doing "wrong" was defending the apexes of corners.
My point is that other drivers did this long before Senna; in fact he probably just observed others and decided to take it a bit further.
Karthikeyan had also just come out of the paddock, and his unusual explanation for his lack of pace this season was that he didn’t know he had been given an F1 car, and had thus deliberately driven at the national speed limit of 30mph in lit street zones…
'For whatever reason I didn’t get a call saying I was going to go drive for HRT this year, so in my mind I thought I was still on the way to Tesco in my wife's Ford Escort,” said the Indian. “And when I came out of the pits I realised that the car had no indicators, but it was too late because I was on the main road and had forgotten my shopping list'
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
'For whatever reason I didn’t get a call saying I was going to go drive for HRT this year, so in my mind I thought I was still on the way to Tesco in my wife's Ford Escort,” said the Indian. “And when I came out of the pits I realised that the car had no indicators, but it was too late because I was on the main road and had forgotten my shopping list'
too many buttons on my wheel, too many buttons on my wheel
maybe he pitted, felt the conditions on the track where improving, but given the fact he's not in a good team, he figured they can't make smart desicions... "they must've put me on wets still.. they must've, i'm not even going to look at them"
maybe he pitted, felt the conditions on the track where improving, but given the fact he's not in a good team, he figured they can't make smart desicions... "they must've put me on wets still.. they must've, i'm not even going to look at them"
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> As for Massas accident, I don't really see what
> the HRT did wrong. Massa just lost it on slicks on
> a wet part of the track, and given Massas history
> of hilarity in wet conditions, I don't see why
> anyone is surprised by that. But it should also be
> considered that the HRTs were outside the 107% of
> the pole time, and only the big teams holding back
> in Q1 is keeping them in the race. We have cars
> which are the slowest in F1 for over a decade, and
> they are only being allowed to race because other
> teams hold back because of the nature of the
> current qualifying. So there is an argument to be
> made that HRT are too slow and shouldn't be there
> anyway. Not that it excuses Massa from another
> moment of stupidity.
Well Karthikeyan didn't break any rules, but lapped cars probably should give up the racing line in that situation. I think Massa also underestimated just how slow Narain's exit to the corner was, although I'd like to see his onboard footage to see if he actually braked to let Massa by or not.
flat tyre Wrote:
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> Fun fact - the last 8 sessions have all been red
> flagged. A record?
If you don't include Montreal qualifying
X (@ed24f1)
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> As for Massas accident, I don't really see what
> the HRT did wrong. Massa just lost it on slicks on
> a wet part of the track, and given Massas history
> of hilarity in wet conditions, I don't see why
> anyone is surprised by that. But it should also be
> considered that the HRTs were outside the 107% of
> the pole time, and only the big teams holding back
> in Q1 is keeping them in the race. We have cars
> which are the slowest in F1 for over a decade, and
> they are only being allowed to race because other
> teams hold back because of the nature of the
> current qualifying. So there is an argument to be
> made that HRT are too slow and shouldn't be there
> anyway. Not that it excuses Massa from another
> moment of stupidity.
Well Karthikeyan didn't break any rules, but lapped cars probably should give up the racing line in that situation. I think Massa also underestimated just how slow Narain's exit to the corner was, although I'd like to see his onboard footage to see if he actually braked to let Massa by or not.
flat tyre Wrote:
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> Fun fact - the last 8 sessions have all been red
> flagged. A record?
If you don't include Montreal qualifying
X (@ed24f1)
Vader Wrote:
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> Slash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > chet Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > That was..special. Right now, for me that
> win
> > > > means as much as his whole wdc! That meant
> a
> > > lot
> > > > to me! More tomorrow when I'm at my
> computer
> > > > though! Button was class. That win > all
> his,
> > > and
> > > > damon hills wins, jv's wins, and juan
> pablos
> > > > poles, combined!
> > >
> > > A win handed to him by several SCs and a
> > mistake
> > > by Vettel.
> >
> > lmao, a mistake because he was so comfortable
> that
> > he lost concentration?, or was a mistake
> induced
> > by the pressure Jenson put on him?
> >
>
> A mistake due to driving at the limit for so long.
> It happens to everyone sooner or later. Usually no
> big deal, in this race decisive.
Saftey cars are a part of racing. Mistakes are a part of racing and they were part of this race.
Vettel made a mistake under pressure Button put on him. It was that simple. Vettel's mistake was not a brain fade. Vettel's mistake was a mistake induced by the fact he had drive quick! He got flustered and you saw the result.
The reason I appreciated that win so much was because it was a race Button was his usual measured self and Lewis-type aggressive when he needed to be. There were stages when it was wet when he should have maybe been more aggressive for position, but other than that his race was perfect.
Can you say the same for Vettel?
He had pressure for about 2 laps from Massa. After that he scampered off. However, he made the mistake of not driving hard enough on slicks early enough. He was arrogant. He assumed the win was in the bag. I mean, who would doubt him? He had Webber, Schumacher in a shite car, and the always cautious Button behind. He probably thought he had an easy ride because it was neither Lewis or Alonso. Fact is, he vastly under-estimated Button and that was his mistake.
Sure, without the saftey car Button would not have been in that position but there was a safety car and that is that. It was what it was and Vettel did not make the most of his opportunity because he got cocky. You saw that in his face afterwards. The race was his! Still, he's still young and he's been due a mistake. He will learn, and thats what matters. Button showed pure class yesterday. A class only experience will gain you.
Button surprised even myself with his drive. I said it last time, he along with Vettel, Lewis and Alonso are on another level this season. They are simply amazing. Button the last 3 races has been a pleasure to watch. Ive got so much more out of it than his 2009 races. Why? Because this time he is against far more formidable opponents. Vettel is a stronger driver, a WDC, Lewis is better than ever, Alonso is driving amazing yet Button is there with them. Maybe still not on their level but he's not as far as he was last year.
The Button and Mclaren relationship is amazing. The Button-Lewis relationship just as amazing.
Recently I've come to accept Button is not a great who will be remembered by everyone. Ive accepted there are a number of quicker, maybe better drivers out there right now and I certainly don't have the same opinion of him I once used to where to me, he was God who could do no wrong. But then he goes and does something like this and makes me re-think him again. Yesterday he displayed everything I've ever wanted him to show as a driver and more. He has times like Oz where he got flustered and made a meal of the incident (in hindsight I accept that penalty - had my fanboy hat on at the time) but he wont make the same mistake twice. That's something Lewis needs to learn.
Button IS NOT a contender of the title IMO but expect more wins. He will not beat Vettel, Lewis or Alonso in the points at the end but if he's more than 20-25 points behind 2nd place (or Lewis) i will be amazed. Button is a fly you will never shake off.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > chet Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > That was..special. Right now, for me that
> win
> > > > means as much as his whole wdc! That meant
> a
> > > lot
> > > > to me! More tomorrow when I'm at my
> computer
> > > > though! Button was class. That win > all
> his,
> > > and
> > > > damon hills wins, jv's wins, and juan
> pablos
> > > > poles, combined!
> > >
> > > A win handed to him by several SCs and a
> > mistake
> > > by Vettel.
> >
> > lmao, a mistake because he was so comfortable
> that
> > he lost concentration?, or was a mistake
> induced
> > by the pressure Jenson put on him?
> >
>
> A mistake due to driving at the limit for so long.
> It happens to everyone sooner or later. Usually no
> big deal, in this race decisive.
Saftey cars are a part of racing. Mistakes are a part of racing and they were part of this race.
Vettel made a mistake under pressure Button put on him. It was that simple. Vettel's mistake was not a brain fade. Vettel's mistake was a mistake induced by the fact he had drive quick! He got flustered and you saw the result.
The reason I appreciated that win so much was because it was a race Button was his usual measured self and Lewis-type aggressive when he needed to be. There were stages when it was wet when he should have maybe been more aggressive for position, but other than that his race was perfect.
Can you say the same for Vettel?
He had pressure for about 2 laps from Massa. After that he scampered off. However, he made the mistake of not driving hard enough on slicks early enough. He was arrogant. He assumed the win was in the bag. I mean, who would doubt him? He had Webber, Schumacher in a shite car, and the always cautious Button behind. He probably thought he had an easy ride because it was neither Lewis or Alonso. Fact is, he vastly under-estimated Button and that was his mistake.
Sure, without the saftey car Button would not have been in that position but there was a safety car and that is that. It was what it was and Vettel did not make the most of his opportunity because he got cocky. You saw that in his face afterwards. The race was his! Still, he's still young and he's been due a mistake. He will learn, and thats what matters. Button showed pure class yesterday. A class only experience will gain you.
Button surprised even myself with his drive. I said it last time, he along with Vettel, Lewis and Alonso are on another level this season. They are simply amazing. Button the last 3 races has been a pleasure to watch. Ive got so much more out of it than his 2009 races. Why? Because this time he is against far more formidable opponents. Vettel is a stronger driver, a WDC, Lewis is better than ever, Alonso is driving amazing yet Button is there with them. Maybe still not on their level but he's not as far as he was last year.
The Button and Mclaren relationship is amazing. The Button-Lewis relationship just as amazing.
Recently I've come to accept Button is not a great who will be remembered by everyone. Ive accepted there are a number of quicker, maybe better drivers out there right now and I certainly don't have the same opinion of him I once used to where to me, he was God who could do no wrong. But then he goes and does something like this and makes me re-think him again. Yesterday he displayed everything I've ever wanted him to show as a driver and more. He has times like Oz where he got flustered and made a meal of the incident (in hindsight I accept that penalty - had my fanboy hat on at the time) but he wont make the same mistake twice. That's something Lewis needs to learn.
Button IS NOT a contender of the title IMO but expect more wins. He will not beat Vettel, Lewis or Alonso in the points at the end but if he's more than 20-25 points behind 2nd place (or Lewis) i will be amazed. Button is a fly you will never shake off.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
If it were Lewis behind instead of Button. Vettel would not have been silly enough to gap a slower Merc, and his team mate by 3 seconds. If it were Lewis you could be sure Vettel would have been on it.
The issue to me was tyre temperature. Button had it, Vettel on cruise mode didn't. He didn't have the confidence to push and find where the grip was, and once upto speed he went too far.
Even I thought Vettel had it in the bag. Once into second I expected Button to close, and follow the leader.
I seriously believe if Alonso or Lewis were the drivers behind Vettel would have been more alert, and probably won. Maybe the issue was he never had to push the entire race. He had an easy ride whereas Button was forced to push most the way. Maybe that was the mistake? The guy held of a raging Fernando at Singapore and Lewis at Barcelona. Realistically, Button would have been easy to hold off. As far as I've seen Vettel has never really considered Button a threat, and to a point I would agree. Vettel is a better driver in all areas whereas with Lewis and Fernando they are at least equal in all areas. If it were me I would have thought the same. Fact is Button has built a reputation for cruising and collecting, and whilst two of his rivals had retired, would he risk a run in with Vettel?
Either way I just feel Vettel got complacent. They say driving slower is often a quicker way to crash.
But as I say, he seems more able to learn from mistakes than Lewis. You will be sure he wont make the same mistake twice.
Still I guess it's a simple difference of opinion. Its just nice to know he can still make mistakes when it counts because we need a few more!!!!!
Also, I was going to add to my previous post. Vader, it seemed as if you were suggested the safety cars were lucky for Button, and they were. But you have to consider that I guess due to the regulation for the safety car, Vettel picked up free pitstops. I guess being due to regulation it isn't luck. Its more to do with chance I guess.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
The issue to me was tyre temperature. Button had it, Vettel on cruise mode didn't. He didn't have the confidence to push and find where the grip was, and once upto speed he went too far.
Even I thought Vettel had it in the bag. Once into second I expected Button to close, and follow the leader.
I seriously believe if Alonso or Lewis were the drivers behind Vettel would have been more alert, and probably won. Maybe the issue was he never had to push the entire race. He had an easy ride whereas Button was forced to push most the way. Maybe that was the mistake? The guy held of a raging Fernando at Singapore and Lewis at Barcelona. Realistically, Button would have been easy to hold off. As far as I've seen Vettel has never really considered Button a threat, and to a point I would agree. Vettel is a better driver in all areas whereas with Lewis and Fernando they are at least equal in all areas. If it were me I would have thought the same. Fact is Button has built a reputation for cruising and collecting, and whilst two of his rivals had retired, would he risk a run in with Vettel?
Either way I just feel Vettel got complacent. They say driving slower is often a quicker way to crash.
But as I say, he seems more able to learn from mistakes than Lewis. You will be sure he wont make the same mistake twice.
Still I guess it's a simple difference of opinion. Its just nice to know he can still make mistakes when it counts because we need a few more!!!!!
Also, I was going to add to my previous post. Vader, it seemed as if you were suggested the safety cars were lucky for Button, and they were. But you have to consider that I guess due to the regulation for the safety car, Vettel picked up free pitstops. I guess being due to regulation it isn't luck. Its more to do with chance I guess.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> No offence chet, but you're just making it up as
> you go along now. Tyre temperatures are an issue?
> No confidence to push? Got complacent? Sorry man,
> but that's just poor. He made a mistake whilst
> fighting from the lead. When others make mistakes
> none of these are issues - it was a mistake whilst
> fighting for the lead, nothing more. Just because
> he's made less mistakes than everyone else this
> season doesn't mean we should start over analysing
> it.
About the temperatures, Kravitz mentions it himself too. Fact is Button was driving 100% everylap on slicks. Vettel wasn't. The laptimes suggest he was too cautious, and it seemed to be it cost him when he needed to be aggressive.
[news.bbc.co.uk]
Disagree with the rest, but it's hard to disagree with ted, and he mentions it was what Horner said.
edit - [www.f1fanatic.co.uk]
wow at the pole positions! that is amazing for vettel. more poles than alonso and lewis yet they have had cars capable of championships/wins/poles for longer you could argue! amazing. the guy really is a qualifying specialist !
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:43AM by chet.
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> No offence chet, but you're just making it up as
> you go along now. Tyre temperatures are an issue?
> No confidence to push? Got complacent? Sorry man,
> but that's just poor. He made a mistake whilst
> fighting from the lead. When others make mistakes
> none of these are issues - it was a mistake whilst
> fighting for the lead, nothing more. Just because
> he's made less mistakes than everyone else this
> season doesn't mean we should start over analysing
> it.
About the temperatures, Kravitz mentions it himself too. Fact is Button was driving 100% everylap on slicks. Vettel wasn't. The laptimes suggest he was too cautious, and it seemed to be it cost him when he needed to be aggressive.
[news.bbc.co.uk]
Disagree with the rest, but it's hard to disagree with ted, and he mentions it was what Horner said.
edit - [www.f1fanatic.co.uk]
wow at the pole positions! that is amazing for vettel. more poles than alonso and lewis yet they have had cars capable of championships/wins/poles for longer you could argue! amazing. the guy really is a qualifying specialist !
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:43AM by chet.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> No. A lapped car should be predictable in it's
> movement.
Yes, but if he had cleared off to the side of the track early enough, that would be fine as well. I think Narain actually tried to move at the last second, but it was too late due to the closing speeds. Narain was nowhere near the far left of the road.
I think that was the same lap that Karthikeyan was doing a Vettel at Turn 5 and was way off line. Considering his understandable lack of grip, I don't think he should have been wandering along on the racing line at slow speed, when he could have used his mirrors to see that Massa - and other cars were coming behind him.
It was a racing incident. Massa underestimated just how slow Karthikeyan was out of the corner, and Karthikeyan perhaps could've been more 'gentlemanly' considering the situation.
Slash Wrote:
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> i taught i saw Kobayashi out of shape coming out
> of last corner, a bit like Webber when Button
> passed him..
Yes, Kobayashi was out of shape in the last corner, but obviously without the double DRS zone Massa wouldn't have been close enough in the first place
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 09:23AM by SchueyFan.
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> No. A lapped car should be predictable in it's
> movement.
Yes, but if he had cleared off to the side of the track early enough, that would be fine as well. I think Narain actually tried to move at the last second, but it was too late due to the closing speeds. Narain was nowhere near the far left of the road.
I think that was the same lap that Karthikeyan was doing a Vettel at Turn 5 and was way off line. Considering his understandable lack of grip, I don't think he should have been wandering along on the racing line at slow speed, when he could have used his mirrors to see that Massa - and other cars were coming behind him.
It was a racing incident. Massa underestimated just how slow Karthikeyan was out of the corner, and Karthikeyan perhaps could've been more 'gentlemanly' considering the situation.
Slash Wrote:
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> i taught i saw Kobayashi out of shape coming out
> of last corner, a bit like Webber when Button
> passed him..
Yes, Kobayashi was out of shape in the last corner, but obviously without the double DRS zone Massa wouldn't have been close enough in the first place
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 09:23AM by SchueyFan.
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