The Official 2011 Turkish GP Thread ***SPOILERS***
Posted by flat tyre
On the basis that he is no longer the driver he was before, and apparently a much less efficient driver, he is just wasting his time, and the teams time for his personal interest.
I dont care if he loves driving or loves the sport. He is wasting a top 6 car and I hope he realize's it soon enough because IMO there are alot of drivers who could make better use of that car, or at least not look like a fish out of water like he currently does.
As Herbert has said, it wont take anything away from his former achievements because they are, and always will be sensational. I guess the fact that his performances have been so underwhelming also helps. Unless he's crashing into other cars its like he's not even there.
It really is about time the guy translates his FP pace into qualifying pace into race pace. I also suspect his wage packet is somewhat over priced too.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
I dont care if he loves driving or loves the sport. He is wasting a top 6 car and I hope he realize's it soon enough because IMO there are alot of drivers who could make better use of that car, or at least not look like a fish out of water like he currently does.
As Herbert has said, it wont take anything away from his former achievements because they are, and always will be sensational. I guess the fact that his performances have been so underwhelming also helps. Unless he's crashing into other cars its like he's not even there.
It really is about time the guy translates his FP pace into qualifying pace into race pace. I also suspect his wage packet is somewhat over priced too.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Quote
marcl
Maybe as Herbert says MS is as good as he was back in the day just everyone now is betterEven in his last year at Ferrari Massa had the pace of him in a good number of races and RB on his day could beat MS.
So yeah without doing millions of test miles and not having a car and tyres built just for him he is being shown to be at this level?
I agree that the general standard is better now (though that's in part down to how much more the car is part of the equation and how much more TV exposure the mid-field gets).
But regardless of how good Schumacher was and how much teams were moulded around him, you just don't get to be a 7 times World Champion by accident. Back in the 90s, when Schumacher was at his peak in a car which was seldom the fastest, he showed how good a driver he was. Sure there are the odd season with a question mark or two (1994 for example) and his dodgy driving (eg Jerez 1997, Montreal 1998), but his pure driving ability shone through regardless. Just look at his debut grid position. Fellow drivers were raving about him long before he was in a race-winning car (I've got Mansell's book from 1992 where he was gushing about how this guy was going to be a multiple World Champion).
Yeah, his teammates got closer and closer to him by the time he retired, but look at how good he was in his final Ferrari race. Still more than capable of putting in an epic performance.
It can be hard to call how good a driver is doing purely from his pace relative to certain teammates, but instances like Schumacher, Senna, Clark or more recently Alonso in 2008 (where it was obvious he was driving to an inhumane level of performance) do show class, irrespective of how good their teammates may be. You can see what separates the good from the extraordinary.
Regarding Herbert being jealous, it'd surprise me if he was because it's not his way. If it was Hill, for example, it'd make more sense.
97kirkc Wrote:
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> There's only ever been 1 driver that fits into
> that scenario and that was Niki Lauda.
Correct, and it goes to show what an awesome driver he was too.
> The next driver up from that is Prost being out for a year,
> but he did return to easily the best car on the
> grid and a rookie teammate.
In terms of race/Championship results and success on paper, yes. But you don't have to look far below the surface to see that he wasn't the same driver even as he'd been in '91. He was more mistake-prone and had more lacklustre drives and was more over-cautious than he'd been during his previous career too. It's also worth considering the pathetic manner in which he tried to guarantee himself an easy title win in his contract by booking himself a Williams seat in advance and arranging the exclusion clause against Senna being his teammate.
97kirkc Wrote:
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> There's only ever been 1 driver that fits into
> that scenario and that was Niki Lauda.
Correct, and it goes to show what an awesome driver he was too.
> The next driver up from that is Prost being out for a year,
> but he did return to easily the best car on the
> grid and a rookie teammate.
In terms of race/Championship results and success on paper, yes. But you don't have to look far below the surface to see that he wasn't the same driver even as he'd been in '91. He was more mistake-prone and had more lacklustre drives and was more over-cautious than he'd been during his previous career too. It's also worth considering the pathetic manner in which he tried to guarantee himself an easy title win in his contract by booking himself a Williams seat in advance and arranging the exclusion clause against Senna being his teammate.
I was a Herbert superfan back in the day, and you can see why he has such a tainted view on Schumacher.
Anyone whose been to the Silverstone afterparty can back me up there, lol.
The guy was given ridiculously unfair treatment at Benetton - Schummi refused to share his setup tweaks but rinsed Herberts first hand. Herbert wasn't exactly outstanding, but in a car that was more than capable, he probably would have won a lot more that year given more open data as a TEAM.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Anyone whose been to the Silverstone afterparty can back me up there, lol.
The guy was given ridiculously unfair treatment at Benetton - Schummi refused to share his setup tweaks but rinsed Herberts first hand. Herbert wasn't exactly outstanding, but in a car that was more than capable, he probably would have won a lot more that year given more open data as a TEAM.
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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of course the team will trust him more and
> build around him.
Your fanboyism towards Schumacher is frightening.
The point I was making is that Herbert wasn't really given a fair chance in 1995. It's not about trusting some driver more, yes Schumacher was already the 1994 WC, but the blank fact was that Schumacher was given an massive instant bias at the expense of Herbert.
Herbert was giving data, Schumacher was only taking and not sharing the improvements.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
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of course the team will trust him more and
> build around him.
Your fanboyism towards Schumacher is frightening.
The point I was making is that Herbert wasn't really given a fair chance in 1995. It's not about trusting some driver more, yes Schumacher was already the 1994 WC, but the blank fact was that Schumacher was given an massive instant bias at the expense of Herbert.
Herbert was giving data, Schumacher was only taking and not sharing the improvements.
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> Has someone heard
> brundle, or hakkinnen or massa or lauda or
> anybody... who doesnt have problems with schumi to
> say : "yes he is sooo weak, so pathetic he has to
> retire" ?
Actually, Hakkinen has said that he should retire, after 2010:
Michael is for me now a tragic ex-hero.
I ask myself why on earth he got back into the cockpit. There is the most successful man in motor sport driving down in the pack and making a ridiculous mistake in Abu Dhabi that almost cost him his life.
In my view, he is dismantling his own legacy bit by bit. And I see it making no difference whether it is for technical reasons or because he can no longer keep up with the boys.
After three years I returned to the cockpit myself -- for Mercedes in the DTM. And I also had to recognise that even as a Formula One world champion, there are no gifts for the older ones. I won only three times more. You can neither stop the wheel of time, nor turn it back.
Personally, we were never close friends because he always came across, to me anyway, a little bit too arrogant.
[en.espnf1.com]
X (@ed24f1)
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> Has someone heard
> brundle, or hakkinnen or massa or lauda or
> anybody... who doesnt have problems with schumi to
> say : "yes he is sooo weak, so pathetic he has to
> retire" ?
Actually, Hakkinen has said that he should retire, after 2010:
Michael is for me now a tragic ex-hero.
I ask myself why on earth he got back into the cockpit. There is the most successful man in motor sport driving down in the pack and making a ridiculous mistake in Abu Dhabi that almost cost him his life.
In my view, he is dismantling his own legacy bit by bit. And I see it making no difference whether it is for technical reasons or because he can no longer keep up with the boys.
After three years I returned to the cockpit myself -- for Mercedes in the DTM. And I also had to recognise that even as a Formula One world champion, there are no gifts for the older ones. I won only three times more. You can neither stop the wheel of time, nor turn it back.
Personally, we were never close friends because he always came across, to me anyway, a little bit too arrogant.
[en.espnf1.com]
X (@ed24f1)
SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mitadumapaga Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has someone heard
> > brundle, or hakkinnen or massa or lauda or
> > anybody... who doesnt have problems with schumi
> to
> > say : "yes he is sooo weak, so pathetic he has
> to
> > retire" ?
>
> Actually, Hakkinen has said that he should retire,
> after 2010:
Brundle also alluded to it in the commentary on Sunday, in typical laconic style:
David: “It’s almost like (Schumacher) doesn’t know when to give up.”
Martin: “You mean on his career, or on that corner, or on that lap?”
Niki Lauda already had an opinion last year:
"If Michael gets everything he wants from the team, the car and the tyres for next year and then Nico is still quicker than him in 2011 then he'll retire. No question about it. If Nico still blows him away, as this year, he'll either go of his own free will or Mercedes will fire him - one of the two will happen!"
mitadumapaga, you really do need to put the fanboyism to bed now. Herbert is not the only former team-mate to talk about the unequal treatment - JJ Lehto and Jos Verstappen have also mentioned it in interviews. Being a less successful driver has effect on the validity of what they say.
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> mitadumapaga Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has someone heard
> > brundle, or hakkinnen or massa or lauda or
> > anybody... who doesnt have problems with schumi
> to
> > say : "yes he is sooo weak, so pathetic he has
> to
> > retire" ?
>
> Actually, Hakkinen has said that he should retire,
> after 2010:
Brundle also alluded to it in the commentary on Sunday, in typical laconic style:
David: “It’s almost like (Schumacher) doesn’t know when to give up.”
Martin: “You mean on his career, or on that corner, or on that lap?”
Niki Lauda already had an opinion last year:
"If Michael gets everything he wants from the team, the car and the tyres for next year and then Nico is still quicker than him in 2011 then he'll retire. No question about it. If Nico still blows him away, as this year, he'll either go of his own free will or Mercedes will fire him - one of the two will happen!"
mitadumapaga, you really do need to put the fanboyism to bed now. Herbert is not the only former team-mate to talk about the unequal treatment - JJ Lehto and Jos Verstappen have also mentioned it in interviews. Being a less successful driver has effect on the validity of what they say.
There's only one way to conclude the situation, which will never happen, and that would be to sit a known quantity beside Schumacher.
If we could only just stick Alonso by his side, and see how much he squeezes out of that Mercedes.
Sadly, as good as Schumacher allegedly was with his 7 titles and whatnot, his unspectacular performances have merely soured any of his previous success for me. He was great. Don't get me wrong. But I am now asking, really, what he THAT great?
It really does make me wonder now how much of it was down to the car and whether his team status allowed him to have the edge each and every time.
Were his teammates really given a chance to beat him?
1994 was arguably an illegal car.... 1995 team politics..... 2000-2004 team orders, I mean come on, Rubens wasn't that far off?!
Makes you wonder...
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
If we could only just stick Alonso by his side, and see how much he squeezes out of that Mercedes.
Sadly, as good as Schumacher allegedly was with his 7 titles and whatnot, his unspectacular performances have merely soured any of his previous success for me. He was great. Don't get me wrong. But I am now asking, really, what he THAT great?
It really does make me wonder now how much of it was down to the car and whether his team status allowed him to have the edge each and every time.
Were his teammates really given a chance to beat him?
1994 was arguably an illegal car.... 1995 team politics..... 2000-2004 team orders, I mean come on, Rubens wasn't that far off?!
Makes you wonder...
Basically he WAS good.
But he IS crap.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
But he IS crap.
He's had more than a year to re-adjust. He's not making simple mistakes, he's making crucial mistakes race after race.
He has ZERO pressure. He has nothing to prove to anyone (but apparently himself?). He is simply too slow.
And I agree with Dan, his achievements were amazing, but ive always attributed that to tailored made tyres and Jean Todt being an arse. He was awesome, you could see that in numerous races and laps he did. He was a step above Rubens but now I doubt whether he was any more special than say Vettel now, or Lewis or even Alonso?
Was he simply a jigsaw piece that could have been replaced by any other top driver? Probably, yes. Was he the all mighty driver that we all thought we saw? Im starting to doubt.
It should also be noted that back then there were far less drivers capable of great things. There was Michael, Mika, Jacques and that was about it! Did that lend itself toward the thinking of Schumacher being extra special? Again, probably so!
Now we arguably have, Vettel, Lewis, Alonso, Kubica, Nico, Button(?), and Webber who IMO are all capable of great things.
Statistically he was, and probably always will be the greatest but ive never seen him as the greatest driver (or even top 5 IMO). I guess if anything 2010, and 2011 will only go and confirm that.
But all this does come from a Damon and Jacques fan, so you can assume some sort of bias in there somewhere!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
He has ZERO pressure. He has nothing to prove to anyone (but apparently himself?). He is simply too slow.
And I agree with Dan, his achievements were amazing, but ive always attributed that to tailored made tyres and Jean Todt being an arse. He was awesome, you could see that in numerous races and laps he did. He was a step above Rubens but now I doubt whether he was any more special than say Vettel now, or Lewis or even Alonso?
Was he simply a jigsaw piece that could have been replaced by any other top driver? Probably, yes. Was he the all mighty driver that we all thought we saw? Im starting to doubt.
It should also be noted that back then there were far less drivers capable of great things. There was Michael, Mika, Jacques and that was about it! Did that lend itself toward the thinking of Schumacher being extra special? Again, probably so!
Now we arguably have, Vettel, Lewis, Alonso, Kubica, Nico, Button(?), and Webber who IMO are all capable of great things.
Statistically he was, and probably always will be the greatest but ive never seen him as the greatest driver (or even top 5 IMO). I guess if anything 2010, and 2011 will only go and confirm that.
But all this does come from a Damon and Jacques fan, so you can assume some sort of bias in there somewhere!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> it makes you thiunk about senna, doesnt it. in '94
> he spun at brazil (rokkie mmistake), then got hit
> at aida and crashed the car in imola (which wasnt
> his fault at all). but when the pressure is so big
> on you (like it is on schumacher ,like it was on
> senn in 1994, like it was on prost in 1993, or on
> mansell even in 1991 you just make mistakes. and
> it isnt helped when your car is just good enough
> for 5-6 th places tops.
I don't think it's a comparable situation. The early-season FW16 was a dog, and Adrian Newey et al have confirmed as much. Despite this, Senna took three pole positions ahead of a better car, that is more-or-less universally accepted to have been using traction control. Oh, and completely destroyed his team mate. Senna did make a mistake at Interlagos, but you can't really say Aida was down to pressure on him.
It probably is more comparable to Prost in '93, but (again) Hill was rarely a match for him.
The rest of your comparison just doesn't add up. Prost was driving the best car in F1 that year, and many will tell you that the FW14 was probably better than the MP4/6. Which of these two was only good enough for 5th or 6th?
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> what about heidfeld after
> china ?? no one critisized him for anything,
> despite being outperformed from probably THE WORST
> driver last year (one top 3 of the worst).
Maybe because no-one claims that he is the best driver in the history of the sport?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 04:57PM by senninho.
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> it makes you thiunk about senna, doesnt it. in '94
> he spun at brazil (rokkie mmistake), then got hit
> at aida and crashed the car in imola (which wasnt
> his fault at all). but when the pressure is so big
> on you (like it is on schumacher ,like it was on
> senn in 1994, like it was on prost in 1993, or on
> mansell even in 1991 you just make mistakes. and
> it isnt helped when your car is just good enough
> for 5-6 th places tops.
I don't think it's a comparable situation. The early-season FW16 was a dog, and Adrian Newey et al have confirmed as much. Despite this, Senna took three pole positions ahead of a better car, that is more-or-less universally accepted to have been using traction control. Oh, and completely destroyed his team mate. Senna did make a mistake at Interlagos, but you can't really say Aida was down to pressure on him.
It probably is more comparable to Prost in '93, but (again) Hill was rarely a match for him.
The rest of your comparison just doesn't add up. Prost was driving the best car in F1 that year, and many will tell you that the FW14 was probably better than the MP4/6. Which of these two was only good enough for 5th or 6th?
mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what about heidfeld after
> china ?? no one critisized him for anything,
> despite being outperformed from probably THE WORST
> driver last year (one top 3 of the worst).
Maybe because no-one claims that he is the best driver in the history of the sport?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 04:57PM by senninho.
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