The Official 2011 Turkish GP Thread ***SPOILERS***

danm Wrote:
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> Basically he WAS good.
>
> But he IS crap.

Ok, you win the thread. The 99 other posts can be deleted

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> > what about heidfeld after
> > china ?? no one critisized him for anything,
> > despite being outperformed from probably THE
> WORST
> > driver last year (one top 3 of the worst).
>
> Maybe because no-one claims that he is the best
> driver in the history of the sport?


no one questions his (heidfelds) place in F1 , that is what have in mind. I do say that schumacher is not as good as he was but after every single non- top 6 finish, or a finish behind rosberg everyone goes crazy about him having to leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 05:23PM by mitadumapaga.

danm Wrote:
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> Basically he WAS good.
>
> But he IS crap.

And you hate him. We get the picture.

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Not hate at all, I just find it infuriating in a discussion forum to see people say Schummi was a god, just because, without accepting any form of flaws (picking up on the extreme of fanboyism mentioned).

His past spectacularness doesn't earn him a get out of jail free card for any future or recent errors, is basically what I am expressing. That, in conjunction with people saying 'yeah yeah he drove a terrible race this weekend... it was an awful overtake...dangerous etc... OH but he did an amazing overtake this one time 8 years ago such and such...'

Nelson Mandella syndrome. People praise his wonderfulness, don't they?

How many people realise he was, basically, a terrorist once upon a time.

His past is overuled by his future self.

Schumacher was spectacular. But we shouldn't let those feats blind the fanboys of his current decline of form - which is what is being discussed! So yeah, all I am aiming at is the fanboys!

Age is a BIG thing I think, so there is a point. But there really isn't much to compare his situation to.

It's a question that can never be answered, and will be discussed for many years. But his ruthlessness on and off track in making him the no.1 in every team he went to is a special thing in itself. That in turn translated to aiding his success by supressing teammates, so credit where it is due.

I am fascinated by the guy, but it is a real shame we never got to see him truly in an underdog situation where he has driven his balls off. That's what we all need to see.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 06:15PM by danm.

Regardless of how Schumacher does in the rest of this career, I will never doubt how good he was after witnessing Sepang '99, the comeback after his broken leg. He blew everyone else out of the water all weekend, showing with extreme clarity just how good a driver Ferrari were missing in his recovery period.

That he decided to come back and have another year or two of fun won't taint anything for me. No-one ever expected him to be half the driver he was, it was just a question of how much he'd lost.

Quote
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Now we arguably have, Vettel, Lewis, Alonso, Kubica, Nico, Button(?), and Webber who IMO are all capable of great things.

I'd argue we still only have 3 drivers (Vettel, Lewis and Alonso). Kubica we think is capable of great things, but he's never really had pressure in a seat and has only won one race, which was gifted to him by team-orders after all the other contenders had retired. Rosberg is a very good driver, but in the few times he's been up the field so far, his head has deserted him. Button is never going to be a great driver - he's liked, he's got a brain, but he's simply not fast enough to be 'great' - in 2009, most, if not all of the other drivers mentioned would have beaten him to the title. Webber is a guy who had a good run through one season, and that's been about it... and he's had the fastest car for around 2 seasons now (half of 2009 and so far in 2011).

Using the era you were comparing to (the 90s) I'll take the current crop you say are capable of great them and align them with a driver who I see in a similar vein from the same peroid.

Kubica (Frentzen). Epic in the lower cars and certainly capable of putting together a winning drive, but so far, we think he will be a top driver in a top team, but we don't know for certain how it will work out. Hopefully we'll still get the chance to see.

Rosberg (Berger). Got plenty of speed and attitude, but from what we've seen, he's may not have the head to be a title winner.

Button (Hill). Capable of turning it on, doesn't make many mistakes, keeps plugging away with an excellent mind-set, but not exactly overflowing with talent.

Webber (Mansell). In the right car with the right teammate, he could do it, and he'll run himself into the ground trying, but he's not the fastest, isn't always the team's darling and is quite prepared to moan.

All four of them are good drivers and two even have titles, but I wouldn't realistically consider any of them in the same breath as Schumacher or Hakkinen (and maybe Villeneuve for a couple of seasons). Likewise I wouldn't consider their modern counterparts in the same breath as Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton.

Sutil in fight with Renault Owner?! WTF!?

[www.f1sa.com]


F1 : German Formula 1 driver Sutil gets into fist fight with Renault official

Wednesday, 11 May 2011 11:33

Adrian Sutil was involved in a bar fight after the recent Chinese Formula One Grand Prix, it emerged on Wednesday.

The Formula 1 broadcasters RAI (Italy) and TF1 (France) had already reported that the Force India driver got into a fight in Shanghai.

The Italian website 422race.com has now reported details, including the fact that Renault owner Genii's Eric Lux was left bloodied after the scrape in the M1NT night-club.

Scars on Gerard Lopez right hand man Lux's neck were spotted in the Istanbul paddock and a team spokesman confirmed: "I can confirm that there has been an incident on Sunday after the Chinese GP involving Eric Lux.

"Lotus Renault GP is however not in a position to make any comments, as it is a private matter between Eric and the other person."

Eyewitnesses at the club reportedly saw Lux rushing from a VIP room with blood streaming down his neck. Sutil's friend Lewis Hamilton was rushed out of the same room by his bodyguards moments later.

"Sutil apparently had to run out of China to avoid legal problems on the matter," reported 422race.com.

The FIA said it is not investigating the matter, and a Force India spokesman added: "It is a private matter between the parties involved and we don't have any information on that, so we don't want to make any comment."


LOL, meow Adrian, meow! Odds it was his nails that scratched Lux?


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 11:26PM by danm.

Nice reply Dan, well put. The reason I said you hate him was because you kept saying he'd be replaced, he was crap, arguing he might not be that good in his prime after all, mentioning Badoer in relation to him(Nasty!), etc - which implied you must harbour at least an intense dislike of the guy. But good response. I can see where you're coming from RE apparent unconditional worshipping of MS, but it's worth keeping in mind at all times that he's(in terms of statistics) the greatest ever, and not everybody looks past that. He shouldn't be praised and looked up to just because, but it happens.
Think most of us dislike him at least to an extent, if just because of the way he tends to drive on track and the tactics he still uses on other drivers(Hungary last year being the prime example).
But regarding his past being overruled by his future self - disagree there. Think those of us who're switched on will be able to differentiate MS 1991-2006 from MS 2010-now, because he never was going to be the same driver after so long away. Basically the same thing Gav just said above. The 1991-2006 MS will stay untarnished for me, even if he's absolute @#$%& for the rest of his time with Mercedes - that was him in another era, another time.
This, for me at least, was about seeing how well he'd be able to handle the challenge of coming back to a massively changed sport, with a strange new team which was by no means guaranteed to have a competitive car when he joined them, and trying to squeeze some more success out of the bag - it's something that would've been arguably unprecedented in F1 history(depending how you view the circumstances of Lauda's comeback) if he'd managed to pull it off, and I respect and admire him for trying.

Speaking of him, here's another article from the same site with some reflection on the Turkish GP from his camp(probably biased, but meh):

[www.f1sa.com]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2011 03:05AM by EC83.

Regarding Sutil - LOL, that sounds juicy! Does he have a secret double life as Wolverine or something?

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lol! I was more suspicious that he was out with Lewis again, the two of them.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

gav Wrote:
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> I'd argue we still only have 3 drivers (Vettel,
> Lewis and Alonso). Kubica we think is capable of
> great things, but he's never really had pressure
> in a seat and has only won one race, which was
> gifted to him by team-orders after all the other
> contenders had retired.

thats a pretty lame assessment of kubica, the best way to judge a driver is if he does the best job he can in the machinery he has, he did that in his first win, without your paranoid team orders. dont forget also how many times last year he drove better then drivers in better cars, but because he didnt get a win you dont rate him! he finished ahead of lewis and alonso at monaco, a drivers circuit in an inferior car, and competed the whole weekend with vettel and webber who had the best car on the grid. on another drivers circuit, suzuka, he qualified 3rd ahead of about 5 other quicker car. Kubica only had the oportunity to win 1 race in f1 in the machinery he has been given, and he took that opportunity. compare that to hamilton who has had 3 opportunities to win a championship, blew it twice (2007 and 2010), with mistakes towards the end of the seasons and almost blew it in 2008 where he only won because of a slowing toyota of all things, which saved face for him and if the toyota hadnt slowed we would probably rate hamilton as the biggest chocker in sport now. so id argue kubica makes the most of the car he is given, and drivers like hamilton do not. i think vettel is currently the best, he is making the most out of the machinery he has while others arent. this years redbull are better prepared then last year, and vettel is making the best of his opportunity and thrashing them, that is what a good driver does when they have the best car. when a driver is in this form the only way to beat him is through strategy and luck, like how hamilton beat him in china. i doubt vettel will be beaten much by driver skill from any of the other drivers this year. because even if they matched his skill, he can still win because of car advantage. ofcourse, there will be races when ferrari or mclaren have a car better suited the track then redbull, and they will take a win or two there, and webber might pinch a couple of wins because he has the best car too, but vettel is currently in the best form of any driver in f1, so you have to say he is the best at the moment. schumacher is the worst, he is hurting his legacy badly now and is harming rosberg and mercedes who could better spend his salary on building a better car. Rosberg is up there too with the best now, thrashing his teammate every race, always qualifying well, getting the most out of his car, what more can you ask for from a driver? Rosberg is in his prime, and still young which is important in modern f1, but he is being held back by the epic-fail schumacher-returns project with mercedes. age is very important these days, look at button, schumacher and webber, they cant compare to their younger teammates.

Not that you're biased or anything.

At what point did I say that I didn't rate him? Who doesn't? Everyone thinks he deserves a race-winning car, myself included.

Don't get me wrong - if he ends up in a top seat I think he has the mental ability to go along with his obvious natural ability, but to be honest, we can't be certain. Just look at Frentzen - we always knew he had great ability (he was considered the better of the two German sports car drivers who made it into F1 in the early 90s ), and thought when his chance came he'd be rolling around in race and championship trophies, but when he got himself into that top team he didn't have the mental strength to make a championship for himself.

As I said earlier, a more recent though less conclusive example is Rosberg - again we know he's an excellent driver, but so far when he's got himself into a strong position, he's not been able to follow through and see it out - indeed he's just gone backwards.

I don't see Kubica in the same way, but we can't know for sure.

And I don't care what you say - he did get lucky with that Montreal win. He was having a strong weekend, but he wouldn't have won had Hamilton not creamed into Raikkonen in the pit lane, and he did need team orders to get past Heidfeld (though he probably would have won anyway).

Kubica is fast but he's inconsistent... and sometimes he's wreckles... sort of driving that leads to big accidents

i'm with gav here, the guy is good (as many others on the grid), but he has yet to prove he's exceptional... like few on the grid

..and add to this all, that kubica really needed team orders in 2008. i still remember how he spent about 5 laps behind heidfeld, not being able to overtake him at all, and the team told nick to move back. and also, hadnt heidfeld done that, he had to make 1 pitstop less. So even to you Gav, i think heidfeld would have come out the winner and kubica would probbly finish 2nd or even 3rd behind alonso.

And schumacher is of course NOT the weakest driver out there. how can you make such an assumption, when he finished 1 race ahead of nico and 2 races behind.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> And schumacher is of course NOT the weakest driver
> out there. how can you make such an assumption,
> when he finished 1 race ahead of nico and 2 races
> behind.

I think the point that's being made is that he is one of the weakest wheel-to-wheel drivers out there. The speed itself is clearly still there, at least to some extent, but I'm not sure Schumacher will ever be listed as a good wheel-to-wheel driver.

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mmm, senninho, actually his manouvers and strategies in the wheel 2 wheel battles dont work only in the midfield. if for example he squezees hamilton, button, alonso, webber, they will not commit themselves to the overtaking at that point because they have a lot to loose. Petrov, kobayshi, dela rosa alguersuari fight for 10thand 9 th places and will of course take greater chances.

P.S. i still cant understand why is everyone thinking schumacher has lost it, just because of that accident with petrov. same happened with webber in 2005 but no one dared to say a thing because schuey was world champion.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> P.S. i still cant understand why is everyone
> thinking schumacher has lost it, just because of
> that accident with petrov. same happened with
> webber in 2005 but no one dared to say a thing
> because schuey was world champion.

It wasn't just that. This was the weekend that, after FP3, it looked like he was a real chance for a Top 5 qualifying and race performance on merit. He choked in qualifying, and had a clumsy race.

It's not just the Petrov crash leading people to say that he's lost it, it's his lack of consistency all year. He showed he could match Rosberg at the end of 2010, and now he's gone backwards again.

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X (@ed24f1)

well, schuey fan, i totally agree that schumacher has lost some of his skills... namely, his skill to adapt to unknown conditions. and one of them are the new tyres. i really think that it will take a while for him to adjust to them, just how it took him to work with th e BRIDGESTONES last year.

but apart from that i dont see to big change in him.

i'm generally on schumacher's side but he really could've avoided that accident, he should've anticipated that petrov clearly had no control due to braking so late (kudos to the balls) and at that point one would've expected schumacher's experience to step up and avoid a race-ruining incident..