just decided to share with you guys.....
Posted by mitadumapaga
i just watched the 1990 gp of phoenix and the senna - alesi battle. and i wanted to say how much i just miss the years when a middle pack team could do miracles (like wins and podiums). also how a weak team could have been brought right up there with the rest................ something we will probably never ever see again. 
the last farcry of this was probably vettels win at the 2008 monza gp
the last farcry of this was probably vettels win at the 2008 monza gp2007. 
There were several reasons.
1) driving talent mattered more
2) that there were multiple tyre suppliers - the main reason Alesi managed to get to such a position but also being the reason he didn't win
3) mechanical gremlins and tracks WHICH ACTUALLY PUNISHED MISTAKES (are you reading this Tilke?) meant it was rare for there to more than a dozen finishers in a race
There were several reasons.
1) driving talent mattered more
2) that there were multiple tyre suppliers - the main reason Alesi managed to get to such a position but also being the reason he didn't win
3) mechanical gremlins and tracks WHICH ACTUALLY PUNISHED MISTAKES (are you reading this Tilke?) meant it was rare for there to more than a dozen finishers in a race
gav Wrote:
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> 2007.
Gav, you're not actually saying Vettel won Monza 2007? :-/
Regarding the tracks, those definitely have played a part. Just recently I've watched some videos of BBC F1 coverage from the early 80s, including the 1981 German GP on the(almost) original layout and, yesterday, the 1980 US GP East at Watkins Glen. Back then tracks were so much more demanding and surely fun to drive, showing up driver talent and making for much better racing too.
Hockenheim pre-1982, for example, was just epic.
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> 2007.
Gav, you're not actually saying Vettel won Monza 2007? :-/
Regarding the tracks, those definitely have played a part. Just recently I've watched some videos of BBC F1 coverage from the early 80s, including the 1981 German GP on the(almost) original layout and, yesterday, the 1980 US GP East at Watkins Glen. Back then tracks were so much more demanding and surely fun to drive, showing up driver talent and making for much better racing too.
Hockenheim pre-1982, for example, was just epic.
Quote
EC83
Gav, you're not actually saying Vettel won Monza 2007? :-/
Bugger.
Sorry mita!
Note to self: don't rely on memory when trying to be cheeky.
But the reason that it's so special when a small team fights for a podium is because it's so rare.
Remember Force India in 2009? They were on 0 points for over half the season, then Fizzy suddenly put it on pole at Spa, and nearly won. The following race, Sutil came very close to doing the same thing. Then, after that, they were back to their normal midfield selves. They didn't score any more points that season.
These things usually happen when a car has characteristics that makes it slow at most tracks, but unusually quick at others. This is what happened to Force India in 2009, because their car was good in a straight line (as far as I know).
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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
Remember Force India in 2009? They were on 0 points for over half the season, then Fizzy suddenly put it on pole at Spa, and nearly won. The following race, Sutil came very close to doing the same thing. Then, after that, they were back to their normal midfield selves. They didn't score any more points that season.
These things usually happen when a car has characteristics that makes it slow at most tracks, but unusually quick at others. This is what happened to Force India in 2009, because their car was good in a straight line (as far as I know).
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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
I think that all the teams were much less professional in those days, which meant that the performance of the teams varied so much throughout the year.
X (@ed24f1)
X (@ed24f1)
Ah come on, the US grand prix of 2005 must be the wierdest looking grid anyone has ever seen?
On the original topic, i agree it is partly the tracks, certain more modern tracks, whilst they can be fun to drive, really don't help the less developed teams.
But its also to do with the safety and standards of racing these days personally. The gap between a new team and the teams already in has got bigger as F1 has got safer. In the older days, racing was much more on the edge, retirements were higher, so the equivalents of lotus and virgin would be able to snatch some points on the off day, and have special days where they somehow end up faster than established teams. But as racing gets safer and safer such as it is today, the gap between teams like sauber/williams, and teams like virgin/lotus/hrt is big.
Then again, i wasn't really alive so thats just based of of what ive seen of highlights. But no, i believe the days of the weaker teams springing a surprise will be few and far between
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For a list of EVERY download for GP4, look here: [docs.google.com]
On the original topic, i agree it is partly the tracks, certain more modern tracks, whilst they can be fun to drive, really don't help the less developed teams.
But its also to do with the safety and standards of racing these days personally. The gap between a new team and the teams already in has got bigger as F1 has got safer. In the older days, racing was much more on the edge, retirements were higher, so the equivalents of lotus and virgin would be able to snatch some points on the off day, and have special days where they somehow end up faster than established teams. But as racing gets safer and safer such as it is today, the gap between teams like sauber/williams, and teams like virgin/lotus/hrt is big.
Then again, i wasn't really alive so thats just based of of what ive seen of highlights. But no, i believe the days of the weaker teams springing a surprise will be few and far between
_________________________________________________
For a list of EVERY download for GP4, look here: [docs.google.com]
Basically, today is too clinical. Everything is so engineered to perfection, it becomes rare to find faults, and errors when they do occur get fixed, or revised immediately. It's so autonymous, it is killing character.
Character being that of diversity and variation.
Like the food we eat. The architecture we move within. Roads we travel. TV shows we watch.
It's all slowly becoming functional over form.
I heavily leant on this debate to kingdom come all through my gcse art years, to a levels right into my architecture degree and into work in the office now.
Todays world is so clean-cut, the rules and everything is merging to this weird and horrid Utopian thing.
I know its far off, but that's how I see it. Diversity and variation IS the spice of life.
Contrast, whilst it can be awful, can also be a glorious thing.
Offtopic, but a sidethought into Utopia, what scares me is that if everything becomes equal, perfect, and completely efficient, what happens to desire? One might argue that you all equally progress exponentially for the good of everyone; or that it dwindles as people become acceptant of totallity and progress lacks need so you remain in limbo for eternity.
Back on topic, yeah, the old school days were exciting because of variation, and nothing was too perfect to be THAT predictable.
I still think manual gearsticks and clutch foot pedals should make a comeback.
More mistakes, more variation = unknown possibilities.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 12:32PM by danm.
Character being that of diversity and variation.
Like the food we eat. The architecture we move within. Roads we travel. TV shows we watch.
It's all slowly becoming functional over form.
I heavily leant on this debate to kingdom come all through my gcse art years, to a levels right into my architecture degree and into work in the office now.
Todays world is so clean-cut, the rules and everything is merging to this weird and horrid Utopian thing.
I know its far off, but that's how I see it. Diversity and variation IS the spice of life.
Contrast, whilst it can be awful, can also be a glorious thing.
Offtopic, but a sidethought into Utopia, what scares me is that if everything becomes equal, perfect, and completely efficient, what happens to desire? One might argue that you all equally progress exponentially for the good of everyone; or that it dwindles as people become acceptant of totallity and progress lacks need so you remain in limbo for eternity.
Back on topic, yeah, the old school days were exciting because of variation, and nothing was too perfect to be THAT predictable.
I still think manual gearsticks and clutch foot pedals should make a comeback.
More mistakes, more variation = unknown possibilities.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 12:32PM by danm.
$$$ doesn't always bring guaranteed success though, as proven.
But then $$$ is beter than nothing at all.
Its a difficult compromise, almost makes you wince at being part of the governing body trying to solve all the issues.
But uncapping things might make some teams storm ahead in development, but then outdoing eachother comes at the expense of failing parts. Look at Chapman at Lotus - make it lighter, thinner, lower etc. Things break.
If you all have the same cap limit, you're all trying to do the same thing anyway, just within a budget.
Budgets restrict development in a way, by limiting the amount of immediate experiments you can undertake.
No longer can you made thirty different rear wings made out of polystyrene, wood, titanium, carbon fibre, kryptonite....
So basically, the budget cap has just diluted and cut down the amount of immediate innovation and concentrated it on one of a few things, ie, all the variant front wing and nose designs.
Without such a cap and restrictions, you get things like the fan cars, ground effect etc.
Catch 22. You want more variation. You need more development. The restrictions are too tight. You cant be as freely experimental. you have to focus on a limited pallette of development areas. Things get boring. Big fish in a small pond syndrome. All looking at the same things. Boring. Needs a bigger cap to explore deeper. Needs less restrictions.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 02:54PM by danm.
But then $$$ is beter than nothing at all.
Its a difficult compromise, almost makes you wince at being part of the governing body trying to solve all the issues.
But uncapping things might make some teams storm ahead in development, but then outdoing eachother comes at the expense of failing parts. Look at Chapman at Lotus - make it lighter, thinner, lower etc. Things break.
If you all have the same cap limit, you're all trying to do the same thing anyway, just within a budget.
Budgets restrict development in a way, by limiting the amount of immediate experiments you can undertake.
No longer can you made thirty different rear wings made out of polystyrene, wood, titanium, carbon fibre, kryptonite....
So basically, the budget cap has just diluted and cut down the amount of immediate innovation and concentrated it on one of a few things, ie, all the variant front wing and nose designs.
Without such a cap and restrictions, you get things like the fan cars, ground effect etc.
Catch 22. You want more variation. You need more development. The restrictions are too tight. You cant be as freely experimental. you have to focus on a limited pallette of development areas. Things get boring. Big fish in a small pond syndrome. All looking at the same things. Boring. Needs a bigger cap to explore deeper. Needs less restrictions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 02:54PM by danm.
Dan, I like the idea of kryptonite .
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