2010 Abu Dhabi GP Official Thread *Spoilers*
Posted by chet
Quote
DaveEllis
really is a bad example to use.
He's the only equivalent example you can use.
Edit: I do agree with the rest of your post though. Alonso has crucified Massa this season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 11:18PM by gav.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> He had the same power as the STR, and an F-Duct.
> He didn't pass the STR because he's sh*t, frankly.
That's a shallow way to look at it.
Even without the F-Duct, the STRs were the fastest in the speed trap in qualifying. When a car is 4+kph faster than you with the current regulations and the design of this circuit (based on overtaking by slipstream) its going to be hard for most drivers, even for drivers who are reputedly very good overtakers, as Slash mentioned above.
Also, the Ferrari's engines were much more worn than almost all other cars. For example, the Renaults had new engines for this race. That's largely why they were able to do so well.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Massa has been terrible since Hockenheim. Whether
> that is down to deflated approach, poorer
> treatment, or just coincidence is up for debate.
I don't think Massa's been that bad since Hockenheim actually (bar Japan). I think his worst races of the year were Shanghai, Barcelona and arguably Silverstone (Lap 1 contact was 50-50).
I don't think you can call Hungary, Spa, Monza, Singapore, Korea or Brazil terrible.
In Singapore, he had one flying lap after his early stop, and he gained 10 positions or something like that. In Brazil, he would have been 5th or 6th but the team screwed up. Japan was awful, there's no doubt about it, and Abu Dhabi was disappointing, but, still, no worse than his team-mate.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> He is by far the worst of the top 6 drivers and
> really is a bad example to use.
But based on his performances this year, I think Massa hasn't been that much worse than Button in a lot of ways. Hear me out.
If you look at average qualifying, taking out Massa's Singapore mechanical failure, they are basically dead even (Massa 6.889, Button 6.947).
Now if you compare them to their team-mates. In qualifying, Button beat Hamilton 5 times, and Massa beat Alonso 4 times. In races, if you go back to the running order before either driver had a failure or a racing incident, Lewis is up 16-3. At Ferrari, Fernando is up 12-6 (I gave Massa Hockenheim, and removed Singapore because we didn't see Massa's potential).
So basically, the eventual points gap between Jenson and Felipe came down to luck more than anything else. Jenson made good weather calls to win two races. Obviously this wasn't only luck, but there is always an element of luck in any weather decision. Felipe got involved in a couple of 50-50 lap 1 collisions in the middle of the year, where Jenson had lucky safety cars which allowed him to escape from bad qualifying sessions. Felipe got screwed over by the Valencia SC more than anyone else, Felipe would have been ahead of Button in Brazil if it wasn't for his bad wheel etc. It would be incorrect not to mention that Button also had bad luck in Monaco and Spa.
Look, I'm not taking anything away from Button, as he's done a very good job this year and much better than I thought, its just that the gulf between him, Massa and the other top 4 has only been inflated by circumstance more than speed or ability.
X (@ed24f1)
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> He had the same power as the STR, and an F-Duct.
> He didn't pass the STR because he's sh*t, frankly.
That's a shallow way to look at it.
Even without the F-Duct, the STRs were the fastest in the speed trap in qualifying. When a car is 4+kph faster than you with the current regulations and the design of this circuit (based on overtaking by slipstream) its going to be hard for most drivers, even for drivers who are reputedly very good overtakers, as Slash mentioned above.
Also, the Ferrari's engines were much more worn than almost all other cars. For example, the Renaults had new engines for this race. That's largely why they were able to do so well.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Massa has been terrible since Hockenheim. Whether
> that is down to deflated approach, poorer
> treatment, or just coincidence is up for debate.
I don't think Massa's been that bad since Hockenheim actually (bar Japan). I think his worst races of the year were Shanghai, Barcelona and arguably Silverstone (Lap 1 contact was 50-50).
I don't think you can call Hungary, Spa, Monza, Singapore, Korea or Brazil terrible.
In Singapore, he had one flying lap after his early stop, and he gained 10 positions or something like that. In Brazil, he would have been 5th or 6th but the team screwed up. Japan was awful, there's no doubt about it, and Abu Dhabi was disappointing, but, still, no worse than his team-mate.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> He is by far the worst of the top 6 drivers and
> really is a bad example to use.
But based on his performances this year, I think Massa hasn't been that much worse than Button in a lot of ways. Hear me out.
If you look at average qualifying, taking out Massa's Singapore mechanical failure, they are basically dead even (Massa 6.889, Button 6.947).
Now if you compare them to their team-mates. In qualifying, Button beat Hamilton 5 times, and Massa beat Alonso 4 times. In races, if you go back to the running order before either driver had a failure or a racing incident, Lewis is up 16-3. At Ferrari, Fernando is up 12-6 (I gave Massa Hockenheim, and removed Singapore because we didn't see Massa's potential).
So basically, the eventual points gap between Jenson and Felipe came down to luck more than anything else. Jenson made good weather calls to win two races. Obviously this wasn't only luck, but there is always an element of luck in any weather decision. Felipe got involved in a couple of 50-50 lap 1 collisions in the middle of the year, where Jenson had lucky safety cars which allowed him to escape from bad qualifying sessions. Felipe got screwed over by the Valencia SC more than anyone else, Felipe would have been ahead of Button in Brazil if it wasn't for his bad wheel etc. It would be incorrect not to mention that Button also had bad luck in Monaco and Spa.
Look, I'm not taking anything away from Button, as he's done a very good job this year and much better than I thought, its just that the gulf between him, Massa and the other top 4 has only been inflated by circumstance more than speed or ability.
X (@ed24f1)
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> But is it really? Coulthard not being able to pass
> Bernoldi at Monaco, the worst track for
> overtaking, has gone down in legendary status.
> Massa had the equivalent but at a much better
> track, and we're defending him?
OK, I see your point, but to use that example, the 2010 Toro Rosso is much better than the 2001 Arrows in relative terms.
Bernoldi was 4 seconds behind Coulthard in qualifying at Monaco in 2001, while Alguersuari was only 1.3s behind Massa this year at Monaco.
Add that to engine discrepancy, and FIA regulations making it even more difficult to overtake, I don't think being "sh*t" had anything to do with it at Abu Dhabi.
> Those engines will have been turned up the max. A
> championship was on the line - there's no way they
> were conserving them.
Sure, but there's still going to be a difference between an engine with one race under its belt rather than two or three.
> The difference between Massa and a top driver is
> he gets himself into positions where he can gain
> 10 positions. Even when Webber and Alonso have bad
> days, they very rarely have that amount of cars in
> front of them.
That isn't an appopriate link to make, as Massa only got that low in Singapore due to a mechanical failure.
As I said above, his average qualifying this year was ~7, so its not as though he's regularly needing to move up 10 places. The two other times he was outside the 10 were Malaysia when both McLaren and Ferrari didn't go out early enough, and Japan - his fault. But again, that's the same as Fernando who had Malaysia, a did-not-attempt in Monaco and not being good enough in Turkey.
> I agree with Gav. Button gets himself up there,
> with drivers who are in theory better than him, by
> making risky calls and decisions. It takes balls.
> Massa meanwhile is the only driver on the grid
> with a completely open radio channel, who gets
> talked to throughout the lap about how to drive
> the car. Smeddley should be demanding half of
> Massas pay.
Since we don't have open access to the radio channels, we have no idea how much each of the engineers talk to the drivers.
Personally, I still prefer what I hear of Massa rather than others like Hamilton who seem to spend the whole time complaining. But as I just said, its all down to what the directors give us.
It always intrigues me why Massa attracts so much apathy from many fans. I think the answer could be in his team-mates. He's had Heidfeld, Fisichella, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso. That's almost an unprecedented line-up, as I don't know if any driver in history has had four world champions in a row as team-mate, and not to mention another race winner and another very capable driver.
The fact that he's never been able to destroy a team-mate in a year (as Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton etc. have all done) probably doesn't help his public perception.
And yet, he basically ended Raikkonen's career in 2008 and 2009, and was as good as anyone in the period from 2007 up until his accident...
X (@ed24f1)
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> But is it really? Coulthard not being able to pass
> Bernoldi at Monaco, the worst track for
> overtaking, has gone down in legendary status.
> Massa had the equivalent but at a much better
> track, and we're defending him?
OK, I see your point, but to use that example, the 2010 Toro Rosso is much better than the 2001 Arrows in relative terms.
Bernoldi was 4 seconds behind Coulthard in qualifying at Monaco in 2001, while Alguersuari was only 1.3s behind Massa this year at Monaco.
Add that to engine discrepancy, and FIA regulations making it even more difficult to overtake, I don't think being "sh*t" had anything to do with it at Abu Dhabi.
> Those engines will have been turned up the max. A
> championship was on the line - there's no way they
> were conserving them.
Sure, but there's still going to be a difference between an engine with one race under its belt rather than two or three.
> The difference between Massa and a top driver is
> he gets himself into positions where he can gain
> 10 positions. Even when Webber and Alonso have bad
> days, they very rarely have that amount of cars in
> front of them.
That isn't an appopriate link to make, as Massa only got that low in Singapore due to a mechanical failure.
As I said above, his average qualifying this year was ~7, so its not as though he's regularly needing to move up 10 places. The two other times he was outside the 10 were Malaysia when both McLaren and Ferrari didn't go out early enough, and Japan - his fault. But again, that's the same as Fernando who had Malaysia, a did-not-attempt in Monaco and not being good enough in Turkey.
> I agree with Gav. Button gets himself up there,
> with drivers who are in theory better than him, by
> making risky calls and decisions. It takes balls.
> Massa meanwhile is the only driver on the grid
> with a completely open radio channel, who gets
> talked to throughout the lap about how to drive
> the car. Smeddley should be demanding half of
> Massas pay.
Since we don't have open access to the radio channels, we have no idea how much each of the engineers talk to the drivers.
Personally, I still prefer what I hear of Massa rather than others like Hamilton who seem to spend the whole time complaining. But as I just said, its all down to what the directors give us.
It always intrigues me why Massa attracts so much apathy from many fans. I think the answer could be in his team-mates. He's had Heidfeld, Fisichella, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso. That's almost an unprecedented line-up, as I don't know if any driver in history has had four world champions in a row as team-mate, and not to mention another race winner and another very capable driver.
The fact that he's never been able to destroy a team-mate in a year (as Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton etc. have all done) probably doesn't help his public perception.
And yet, he basically ended Raikkonen's career in 2008 and 2009, and was as good as anyone in the period from 2007 up until his accident...
X (@ed24f1)
Rosberg and Kubica are surely Ferrari and McLaren bound in the next few years.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> But he doesn't have the metal to
> fight the Hamiltons, Alonso, Vettels or even
> Jensons of this world on a regular basis.
OK, I can understand your point in regards to 2010, but to make sweeping comments about his whole career is a bit unfair. You are almost making out that he's been thoroughly beaten by his team-mate every year, which is false.
I don't think its correct to say that he's only had flashes of brilliance in his whole career. In the second half of 2008 (post-Silverstone) he drove very well, except for punting off Hamilton at Fuji. I think if he didn't have the metal, I think it would have shown in these races. In 2009 he drove extremely well considering the car and was looking good for 5th in the championship. You seem to keep switching between commenting about 2010 and his whole career, but I would be surprised if many people think that he wasn't worthy of a Ferrari drive after his performances of 2006-09.
I don't like to bring up his injury as an excuse, but I think it definitely had an impact on his 2010 performance. Maybe not in affecting his driving (although Sid Watkins has said that it would take 2 years to fully recover) but more in stopping his career momentum and affecting his pre-season testing. His problems with the tyres should have been diagnosed and fixed in pre-season testing, rather than focusing on him getting back accustomed to the car. If you look at his first four years at Ferrari it was building up every year and then the accident. The major advantage he had over Alonso going into 2010 was the fact that he was already part of the team, but he lost that advantage.
X (@ed24f1)
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> But he doesn't have the metal to
> fight the Hamiltons, Alonso, Vettels or even
> Jensons of this world on a regular basis.
OK, I can understand your point in regards to 2010, but to make sweeping comments about his whole career is a bit unfair. You are almost making out that he's been thoroughly beaten by his team-mate every year, which is false.
I don't think its correct to say that he's only had flashes of brilliance in his whole career. In the second half of 2008 (post-Silverstone) he drove very well, except for punting off Hamilton at Fuji. I think if he didn't have the metal, I think it would have shown in these races. In 2009 he drove extremely well considering the car and was looking good for 5th in the championship. You seem to keep switching between commenting about 2010 and his whole career, but I would be surprised if many people think that he wasn't worthy of a Ferrari drive after his performances of 2006-09.
I don't like to bring up his injury as an excuse, but I think it definitely had an impact on his 2010 performance. Maybe not in affecting his driving (although Sid Watkins has said that it would take 2 years to fully recover) but more in stopping his career momentum and affecting his pre-season testing. His problems with the tyres should have been diagnosed and fixed in pre-season testing, rather than focusing on him getting back accustomed to the car. If you look at his first four years at Ferrari it was building up every year and then the accident. The major advantage he had over Alonso going into 2010 was the fact that he was already part of the team, but he lost that advantage.
X (@ed24f1)
Buttons gap to Lewis is comparable to Massa's gap to Alonso but Button has the ability to make it up on Sunday, and is usually within pace of Lewis over a race distance. Whoever watched live timing at Abu Dhabi would have seen the best example of the differencet between Button and Lewis. Button takes time to get upto speed but once he's there he can lap as quick as Lewis (maybe a few tenths down on occasion) but the gap you see with Alonso and Massa on a Saturday remains constant throughout Sunday. The Brazil race was an interesting Button-Lewis comparison too. Once Lewis had fresh tyres he pulled away from Button at about 4-5tenths / lap. But it was Lewis later on complaining his rear tyres had gone. Had they not pitted at the end for fresh tyres it would have been an interesting end... It shows their mentality well, Lewis just wants to get the job done and be up there asap, whilst JB was thinking long term, he knew he had (planned) to go to the end on those tyres, nad he knew he had pitted earliest... Both methods have their addvantages and disadvantages, but thats what makes the Mclaren lineup probably the strongest lineup.
Button has a niche if you will. He has his talent and put simply, its being able to think about the whole picture and run a race via that.
Lewis is simply quick nad able to get 101% out the car 102% of the time!
Alonso, is kind of a mix of the two I guess..
What does Massa have that seperates him from any other driver? I like Massa alot! I think he's a great guy, and I hope next year hes on form but when it comes down to it, its true what Dave says, he hasnt got enough to beat Alonso, Lewis, Vettel or even Button. Id probably even put Webber and Nico, Kubica in that list! What most amazed me about Massa was the issue at Oz where Smedley came on the radio telling him how to how to drive the final two corners of the track. He was running too quick into the left so it was putting him off for the final turn. To me, what Smedley told him was common sense..!
As for the Alonso-Petrov and Massa-Jamie...
Well the interesting thing here is that Tilke's circuit is not to blame, the cars aero is not to blame (disregarding Ferraris high DF setup!) but what was a higher contributing factor was IMO the rev limit. Alonso would have been topping out before Petrov simply from setup alone, but the rev limit doesnt help at all. The cars are probably geared so that they reach max revs and speed just before the braking point. So for lapped pace rather than being stuck behind a driver.
The lack of overtaking had nothing to do with cars inability to follow in this case. We saw Lewis could stick with Kubica through the corners, and Alonso could stick with Petrov, its just Kubica and Petrov did fine jobs of keeping them behind where they could... Likewise with Massa and Jamie i guess.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Button has a niche if you will. He has his talent and put simply, its being able to think about the whole picture and run a race via that.
Lewis is simply quick nad able to get 101% out the car 102% of the time!
Alonso, is kind of a mix of the two I guess..
What does Massa have that seperates him from any other driver? I like Massa alot! I think he's a great guy, and I hope next year hes on form but when it comes down to it, its true what Dave says, he hasnt got enough to beat Alonso, Lewis, Vettel or even Button. Id probably even put Webber and Nico, Kubica in that list! What most amazed me about Massa was the issue at Oz where Smedley came on the radio telling him how to how to drive the final two corners of the track. He was running too quick into the left so it was putting him off for the final turn. To me, what Smedley told him was common sense..!
As for the Alonso-Petrov and Massa-Jamie...
Well the interesting thing here is that Tilke's circuit is not to blame, the cars aero is not to blame (disregarding Ferraris high DF setup!) but what was a higher contributing factor was IMO the rev limit. Alonso would have been topping out before Petrov simply from setup alone, but the rev limit doesnt help at all. The cars are probably geared so that they reach max revs and speed just before the braking point. So for lapped pace rather than being stuck behind a driver.
The lack of overtaking had nothing to do with cars inability to follow in this case. We saw Lewis could stick with Kubica through the corners, and Alonso could stick with Petrov, its just Kubica and Petrov did fine jobs of keeping them behind where they could... Likewise with Massa and Jamie i guess.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
gav Wrote:
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> Brakes and tyres need changing for the worse. We
> may get the tyres next year (hopefully Pirelli
> won't be too conservative and we get some nice
> Montreal-style degradation), but the brakes need
> to be redone. The drivers need to be less limited
> by the cars potential, and be given more of a
> role. Instead of braking from 200mph for 90
> metres, make them do it for 150 metres - twice the
> length, twice the work for the driver and double
> the chances of a mistake or more scope for a
> faster driver to make a difference.
That is one way but how? Im no mech engineer but been informed by a friend working on aero brakes that steel brakes offer as much performance but require changing more often, more cooling, and are heavier. I know aero-brakes and racecar performance brakes will differ slightly but he says even in f1 it wouldnt change much, with the biggest change being teams replacing disks every session.
As for tyres, then yes. They need to have huge drop-off.
I dont see the difference between KERS, moveable rear wing than manufacturing tyres which are shite. Both are efforts to aid racing, both are manufactured and 'false' but thats what its come to.
Also a note on performance and development.
HRT have been the single constant throughout 2010, therefore you could use them as a base to judge the development of the other guys.
Taking Spain as an example (when HRT had some laps done!!), they were 7 seconds off. Thats their Q1 to pole in Q3. In Abu Dhabi it was 6 seconds. Obviously Abu Dhabi is longer, but then is more so based on straight line performance than Spain...I looked at Turkey as an all-round track and the gap was only 5 seconds (roughly!)... It should also be noted that IMO in terms of race performance, the gap between HRT to Virgin did not change much from begining to end. If you take HRT's beginings as Spain or when they had completed enough laps. Sennas race pace at Abu Dhabi was comparable to the Virgins IIRC.
Then we see Q3 sessions split by thousands between teams. And it confuses me. I mean, you'd half expect the gap to have increased given RBR's relentless development... I figure the £millions of development cash only tells during a race, ie over long periods of time, and net time gain. i cba right now but id look at the gaps at the end of races maybe. I guess the biggest variable regarding pace is conditions. Something we can not have equal from one point to another. But I still find it interesting that on overal pace there isnt a great deal difference. Ive only looked at a few races, not the whole picture so that could be worth looking at.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
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> Brakes and tyres need changing for the worse. We
> may get the tyres next year (hopefully Pirelli
> won't be too conservative and we get some nice
> Montreal-style degradation), but the brakes need
> to be redone. The drivers need to be less limited
> by the cars potential, and be given more of a
> role. Instead of braking from 200mph for 90
> metres, make them do it for 150 metres - twice the
> length, twice the work for the driver and double
> the chances of a mistake or more scope for a
> faster driver to make a difference.
That is one way but how? Im no mech engineer but been informed by a friend working on aero brakes that steel brakes offer as much performance but require changing more often, more cooling, and are heavier. I know aero-brakes and racecar performance brakes will differ slightly but he says even in f1 it wouldnt change much, with the biggest change being teams replacing disks every session.
As for tyres, then yes. They need to have huge drop-off.
I dont see the difference between KERS, moveable rear wing than manufacturing tyres which are shite. Both are efforts to aid racing, both are manufactured and 'false' but thats what its come to.
Also a note on performance and development.
HRT have been the single constant throughout 2010, therefore you could use them as a base to judge the development of the other guys.
Taking Spain as an example (when HRT had some laps done!!), they were 7 seconds off. Thats their Q1 to pole in Q3. In Abu Dhabi it was 6 seconds. Obviously Abu Dhabi is longer, but then is more so based on straight line performance than Spain...I looked at Turkey as an all-round track and the gap was only 5 seconds (roughly!)... It should also be noted that IMO in terms of race performance, the gap between HRT to Virgin did not change much from begining to end. If you take HRT's beginings as Spain or when they had completed enough laps. Sennas race pace at Abu Dhabi was comparable to the Virgins IIRC.
Then we see Q3 sessions split by thousands between teams. And it confuses me. I mean, you'd half expect the gap to have increased given RBR's relentless development... I figure the £millions of development cash only tells during a race, ie over long periods of time, and net time gain. i cba right now but id look at the gaps at the end of races maybe. I guess the biggest variable regarding pace is conditions. Something we can not have equal from one point to another. But I still find it interesting that on overal pace there isnt a great deal difference. Ive only looked at a few races, not the whole picture so that could be worth looking at.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
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