AGGHHH SHUTUP HORNER!
Posted by chet
[www.autosport.com]
Im sick of hearing this same thing every week!!!!
For a start its putting Renault down, and secondly has he not noticed Mercs (the team) performance??
That difference in power is TINY compared to how well that engine clearly drives, the fuel consumption (being able to run 10Kg less than than the mercs at race start) and the RBR's car performance!
He mentions power, but I see no evidence that they are down on power. It's not showing on acceleration, and they are not too far down on top end. The f-duct has clouded things so we cant make a full judgement. But its about time he shutup about this. 4tenths??? Where does he get this from???
Ferrrari seem happy, Cosworth seem happy, RENAULT factory seem happy?!
Its just him!!!!!
I see this as being no different than say Ferrari saying they want downforce equalisation....
/Rant over!!!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Im sick of hearing this same thing every week!!!!
For a start its putting Renault down, and secondly has he not noticed Mercs (the team) performance??
That difference in power is TINY compared to how well that engine clearly drives, the fuel consumption (being able to run 10Kg less than than the mercs at race start) and the RBR's car performance!
He mentions power, but I see no evidence that they are down on power. It's not showing on acceleration, and they are not too far down on top end. The f-duct has clouded things so we cant make a full judgement. But its about time he shutup about this. 4tenths??? Where does he get this from???
Ferrrari seem happy, Cosworth seem happy, RENAULT factory seem happy?!
Its just him!!!!!
I see this as being no different than say Ferrari saying they want downforce equalisation....
/Rant over!!!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
If Horner doesent like Renault´s engines because they lack power, work with the engine supplier to make it more powerful... oh wait, the factory is happy with that engine, so, why doesent Horner search for another engine supplier?? or better, why doesnt make Red Bull one??
They have the best car in the grid with a good engine in which they can trust. If they are not winning is because the team as a team itself, not for the engine.
They have the best car in the grid with a good engine in which they can trust. If they are not winning is because the team as a team itself, not for the engine.
Horner is always moaning
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Is he talking about peak power? Even a nobody knows that final HP figure isnt everything.
His last comments about more HP, so you can run less revs nad therefore increase fuel efficiency to match the Renault.
Well that still doesnt change the engines driveability or it's torque curve (correct me if im wrong, i know as much about a combustion engine as a fly). What matters for performance is the torque curve, and again feel free to correct, but isnt the torque curve dictated by the exhaust length and power over a rev range??? which can vary team-to-team??
so when Horner mentions the power differential of 30HP its a completley useless and go nowhere argument!
Its like Flav last year talking about the diffusers. Team bosses should STFU when it comes to stuff they dont know and concentrate on the stuff they do.
The fact that engine has every pole so far this season bar an awesome lewis lap is a testiment to not only how good RBR is but also the engine. Its not like RBR or Renault are the ones at the bottom of the trap times either! They usually range from mid-pack to near the front :s. The major differentiating factor is Mclarens f-duct which they've spent a hell of a lot longer perfecting than everybody else.
The FIA can issue all sorts of limitations but each engine manufacturer will have a set method of which it builds engines, each will be different even in small ways, but its these differences which will cause the differences in power and other engine properties. If he wants perfect engine equalisation (which seems to be what he wants ffs!) then we should have a 1 engine formula!
Its the same with cars. Each are built to strict rules but each team has their own desgin philosophy and look different from each other, yet over 3 or so miles they are often seperated by 1/100's.
Horner needs to realize that this is simply a function of racing in an competitive environment. Differences will happen all the time. Unless like I said we have a single car/engine formula.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
His last comments about more HP, so you can run less revs nad therefore increase fuel efficiency to match the Renault.
Well that still doesnt change the engines driveability or it's torque curve (correct me if im wrong, i know as much about a combustion engine as a fly). What matters for performance is the torque curve, and again feel free to correct, but isnt the torque curve dictated by the exhaust length and power over a rev range??? which can vary team-to-team??
so when Horner mentions the power differential of 30HP its a completley useless and go nowhere argument!
Its like Flav last year talking about the diffusers. Team bosses should STFU when it comes to stuff they dont know and concentrate on the stuff they do.
The fact that engine has every pole so far this season bar an awesome lewis lap is a testiment to not only how good RBR is but also the engine. Its not like RBR or Renault are the ones at the bottom of the trap times either! They usually range from mid-pack to near the front :s. The major differentiating factor is Mclarens f-duct which they've spent a hell of a lot longer perfecting than everybody else.
The FIA can issue all sorts of limitations but each engine manufacturer will have a set method of which it builds engines, each will be different even in small ways, but its these differences which will cause the differences in power and other engine properties. If he wants perfect engine equalisation (which seems to be what he wants ffs!) then we should have a 1 engine formula!
Its the same with cars. Each are built to strict rules but each team has their own desgin philosophy and look different from each other, yet over 3 or so miles they are often seperated by 1/100's.
Horner needs to realize that this is simply a function of racing in an competitive environment. Differences will happen all the time. Unless like I said we have a single car/engine formula.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
He's just trying to help his team gain any advantage possible. At least it's being done above board, and he's not trying to cheat his way towards the front(like, I don't know... Whitmarsh?).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2010 12:01AM by EC83.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2010 12:01AM by EC83.
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He's just trying to help his team gain any
> advantage possible. At least it's being done above
> board, and he's not trying to cheat his way
> towards the front(like, I don't know...
> Whitmarsh?).
I understand he's trying to gain an addvantage for his team, but there is non to be had imo! He constantly moans about being that HP down but he's stating a useless fact. If he wants to moan about having a shite engine compared to Mercedes then he needs to look at the torque curves ( i think :p!).
When you compare top speed, let's consider factory team Renault, and Merc because they are pretty equal in track performance and you can assume (though its probably wrong) that they could be getting more out of the engines than customers.
Ill take Turkey and Valencia as examples. Turkey can represent the med-fast tracks and Valencia the BS stop-starts we have about our calender.
In turkey in qualifying Kubica's speed was 311.5 whilst Nico was 307kph. Not a great deal of difference. Not significant imo.
In Valencia, Merc was ahead by a difference under 3kph. Again not great.
Another example. Back in 2007 JB did a number of stunning unnoticed drives, one of the being Monza. He somehow got that shitebox RA107 to a point! Better yet, how did Rubens describe that engine in that car? Something along the lines of like driving with a parachute on the back of the car. That engine got alot of bad press, and rightly so. However JB was slowest through the trap in qualifying yet still managed a point on a track which you would call largley top-end dependent. [www.formula1.com]
And feel free to name an instance when Whitmarsh cheated to get to the front? Other than Aus 09. You could say Valencia maybe, but im pretty sure Lewis was driving, and im pretty sure it was his decision but again if those werent the circumstances feel free to correct?
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
-------------------------------------------------------
> He's just trying to help his team gain any
> advantage possible. At least it's being done above
> board, and he's not trying to cheat his way
> towards the front(like, I don't know...
> Whitmarsh?).
I understand he's trying to gain an addvantage for his team, but there is non to be had imo! He constantly moans about being that HP down but he's stating a useless fact. If he wants to moan about having a shite engine compared to Mercedes then he needs to look at the torque curves ( i think :p!).
When you compare top speed, let's consider factory team Renault, and Merc because they are pretty equal in track performance and you can assume (though its probably wrong) that they could be getting more out of the engines than customers.
Ill take Turkey and Valencia as examples. Turkey can represent the med-fast tracks and Valencia the BS stop-starts we have about our calender.
In turkey in qualifying Kubica's speed was 311.5 whilst Nico was 307kph. Not a great deal of difference. Not significant imo.
In Valencia, Merc was ahead by a difference under 3kph. Again not great.
Another example. Back in 2007 JB did a number of stunning unnoticed drives, one of the being Monza. He somehow got that shitebox RA107 to a point! Better yet, how did Rubens describe that engine in that car? Something along the lines of like driving with a parachute on the back of the car. That engine got alot of bad press, and rightly so. However JB was slowest through the trap in qualifying yet still managed a point on a track which you would call largley top-end dependent. [www.formula1.com]
And feel free to name an instance when Whitmarsh cheated to get to the front? Other than Aus 09. You could say Valencia maybe, but im pretty sure Lewis was driving, and im pretty sure it was his decision but again if those werent the circumstances feel free to correct?
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And feel free to name an instance when Whitmarsh
> cheated to get to the front? Other than Aus 09.
> You could say Valencia maybe, but im pretty sure
> Lewis was driving, and im pretty sure it was his
> decision but again if those werent the
> circumstances feel free to correct?
Why "other than Aus 09"? Does that not count against him? His first race as the team boss, and he lies his ass off to get a rival booted out. I'd say that's about as bad as it gets. You're either capable of doing that kind of thing or you're not. The number of times he's done it is irrelevant.
But since you ask, there are other times when Whitmarsh blatantly lied(which goes hand-in-hand with the cheating) after the race about a situation during it, such as Valencia 2009. Remembering too that he's only been in the position for a season and a half.
My point is, you're entitled to think what you want about Horner(and I personally don't think he's a moaner at all), but there are others who are much worse than he is.
-------------------------------------------------------
> And feel free to name an instance when Whitmarsh
> cheated to get to the front? Other than Aus 09.
> You could say Valencia maybe, but im pretty sure
> Lewis was driving, and im pretty sure it was his
> decision but again if those werent the
> circumstances feel free to correct?
Why "other than Aus 09"? Does that not count against him? His first race as the team boss, and he lies his ass off to get a rival booted out. I'd say that's about as bad as it gets. You're either capable of doing that kind of thing or you're not. The number of times he's done it is irrelevant.
But since you ask, there are other times when Whitmarsh blatantly lied(which goes hand-in-hand with the cheating) after the race about a situation during it, such as Valencia 2009. Remembering too that he's only been in the position for a season and a half.
My point is, you're entitled to think what you want about Horner(and I personally don't think he's a moaner at all), but there are others who are much worse than he is.
I remember Senna and Ron in 1993 going on none stop to get the same Ford engine as Benetton had.
Horner will want the best for his team so he is pushing for renault to be able to catch up. Have tbh I though they were allowed the other year to equal the power to others?
When talking about cheating to get to the front please also include Ferrari in that not just Mclaren
Also Mclaren did not get away with cheating unlike some other have, a cheat is really someone that gets away with it. There are also a number of other teams over the years that have pushed the regulations such as BAR with their fuel tank, and a number of teams with flexi wings.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2010 04:30PM by marcl.
Horner will want the best for his team so he is pushing for renault to be able to catch up. Have tbh I though they were allowed the other year to equal the power to others?
When talking about cheating to get to the front please also include Ferrari in that not just Mclaren
Also Mclaren did not get away with cheating unlike some other have, a cheat is really someone that gets away with it. There are also a number of other teams over the years that have pushed the regulations such as BAR with their fuel tank, and a number of teams with flexi wings.Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2010 04:30PM by marcl.
I'd say a cheat is anyone who attempts to cheat.
Valencia 09?? I cant remember what happened there?
Horner makes an excellent point though. The formula they use (or rather, don't use) for calculating the engine performance is completely broken. Why aren't the engines run on dynos? Why is it all about how the car does? Great cars can get held back by terrible engines, etc
bit in bold - Welcome to F1! Welcome to competition!
Like with the cars, they specify a number of regulations for the engine manufacturers to follow. As I said before, simply because of that there will always be differences . Its part of the sport. The engines are built to a standard, which was what wanted all along. Why? To bring performance as close as possible and id say it's as close as it can be without having a single manufacturer. agreed?
Horner is complaining about an insignificant number which has no real meaning. What is 30hp? How has he quantified that in relation to his car against the others?
This problem will ALWAYS occur unless we have one manufacturer. If he wants to moan, at least moan about something real! Moan about the factors they use to measure engine performance against one another, moan about lack of dyno use. I'll even agree!
And Dave, I said dont included Aus because its a well known story and it was terrible from both Lewis and Whitmarsh, Lewis for lying and Whitmarsh for telling him to/letting him. And with Valencia this year, well blame whitmarsh all you want but as I said; last time I checked Hamilton was the one who made the decision. And hell if you want to blame Whitmarsh for that why not included Malaysia where whitmarsh was blocking Petrov ... Oh but wait.
But since you ask, there are other times when Whitmarsh blatantly lied(which goes hand-in-hand with the cheating) after the race about a situation during it, such as Valencia 2009. Remembering too that he's only been in the position for a season and a half.
Refresh me on the lying for this race.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Horner makes an excellent point though. The formula they use (or rather, don't use) for calculating the engine performance is completely broken. Why aren't the engines run on dynos? Why is it all about how the car does? Great cars can get held back by terrible engines, etc
bit in bold - Welcome to F1! Welcome to competition!
Like with the cars, they specify a number of regulations for the engine manufacturers to follow. As I said before, simply because of that there will always be differences . Its part of the sport. The engines are built to a standard, which was what wanted all along. Why? To bring performance as close as possible and id say it's as close as it can be without having a single manufacturer. agreed?
Horner is complaining about an insignificant number which has no real meaning. What is 30hp? How has he quantified that in relation to his car against the others?
This problem will ALWAYS occur unless we have one manufacturer. If he wants to moan, at least moan about something real! Moan about the factors they use to measure engine performance against one another, moan about lack of dyno use. I'll even agree!
And Dave, I said dont included Aus because its a well known story and it was terrible from both Lewis and Whitmarsh, Lewis for lying and Whitmarsh for telling him to/letting him. And with Valencia this year, well blame whitmarsh all you want but as I said; last time I checked Hamilton was the one who made the decision. And hell if you want to blame Whitmarsh for that why not included Malaysia where whitmarsh was blocking Petrov ... Oh but wait.
But since you ask, there are other times when Whitmarsh blatantly lied(which goes hand-in-hand with the cheating) after the race about a situation during it, such as Valencia 2009. Remembering too that he's only been in the position for a season and a half.
Refresh me on the lying for this race.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
What is 30hp?
Every little helps?
Refresh me on the lying for this race.
Sure.
Whitmarsh claimed that the team "cost Lewis 2 seconds" when they screwed up his final pitstop by not having his tyres ready. In reality it was at least 4 seconds they cost him(not enough to affect the final result IMO, but he was still talking bollocks.) Ted Kravitz then suggested otherwise to him, and he continued to disagree and maintain the "2 seconds" line. If you read the relevant page of the Valencia 2009 thread, you'll see the reaction of some of the regulars here which summed up Whitmarsh's comments pretty well TBH.
My point being, it was exactly the same kind of BS he pulled in Melbourne - just over a less serious matter.
Every little helps?
Refresh me on the lying for this race.
Sure.
Whitmarsh claimed that the team "cost Lewis 2 seconds" when they screwed up his final pitstop by not having his tyres ready. In reality it was at least 4 seconds they cost him(not enough to affect the final result IMO, but he was still talking bollocks.) Ted Kravitz then suggested otherwise to him, and he continued to disagree and maintain the "2 seconds" line. If you read the relevant page of the Valencia 2009 thread, you'll see the reaction of some of the regulars here which summed up Whitmarsh's comments pretty well TBH.
My point being, it was exactly the same kind of BS he pulled in Melbourne - just over a less serious matter.
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is 30hp?
>
> Every little helps?
>
As ive said, im pretty sure that difference in HP is a nothing number. If Horner came out and said the Merc had x amount of torque over x amount of rev range and the Renault this, then there could well be a cause for concern. I know nothing about racecar engines, just stuff read in books so if somebody does know ill happy to be corrected if wrong.
>
> Sure.
> Whitmarsh claimed that the team "cost Lewis 2
> seconds" when they screwed up his final pitstop by
> not having his tyres ready. In reality it was at
> least 4 seconds they cost him(not enough to affect
> the final result IMO, but he was still talking
> bollocks.) Ted Kravitz then suggested otherwise to
> him, and he continued to disagree and maintain the
> "2 seconds" line. If you read the relevant page of
> the Valencia 2009 thread, you'll see the reaction
> of some of the regulars here which summed up
> Whitmarsh's comments pretty well TBH.
> My point being, it was exactly the same kind of BS
> he pulled in Melbourne - just over a less serious
> matter.
I dont understand.
4 seconds, 2seconds. It didnt have an effect either way. If he was lying he was lying to himself or he cant count. Its not like that lie has effected the race result or the race itself is it? Its like when JB says he made a mistake which cost x tenths. Half the time I dont believe him, it doesnt effect what is what but if it makes him happy then why not?
I dont know why that instant can be used as an example, it seems like ... nothing? but if those 2seconds are important to some people then who am I to argue?
What you mean is it is the best proof of Whitmarsh being a lying cheating bastard, and you wanted to neutralise the possibility of that being brought up by singling it out and asking us not to use it. No dice.
I simply singled out an instance the whole world knows because I didnt need to be reminded of it. I was curious of other instances of which has labelled him a lying cheating bastard. You know other instances which may have effect race results, or even FP results! Aus was a major blot on his CV and he wont live it down, and rightly so. It was terrible. But unlike say Flav who you could argue a number of instances of, "is that legal or not" or with Ron the number of orchestrated changes in posistion or even sky-gate where Lewis, engineers and Alonso, were all cheating bastards.
I'm really getting tired of this bullsh*t. When Lewis and Rubens whine, they are just passionate. They are showing emotion, and it is applauded. When Horner, Alonso or Ferrari whine, they get told to shut up. F1 fans will play both sides of the field, whilst moaning about people moaning. Man the f**k up - Horner is doing his job and trying to get his team further up the grid using LEGAL AVENUES. Something Whitmarsh needs to learn more about.
Related to me or general?
Because if aimed at me, go back and read the comments about Rubens moaning ...
With regards to Alonso, i think all I said was he should probably concentrate on his own race rather than another drivers!
I understand Horner is doing the best for his team, but must I repeat it more than once??
He's describing figures which are MEANINGLESS. Unless he gets real engine data from each engine and shows the FIA this standardised engine thing is bollocks (which it is!) he has no argument at all. The Renault might down on power but its up in other areas im sure!
Its like a car. Well its got @#$%& loads of downforce, oh but wait its got quite abit of drag too .... Its a compramise!
THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN UNLESS WE HAVE A SINGLE ENGINE SUPPLIER. That is a fact. Right or wrong? Its common @#$%& sense. Each engine will perform differently CAR TO CAR. Why ahve Sauber had so many engine failures????
Something Whitmarsh needs to learn more about.
Your getting tired of BS?
Me too! Im tired of the F1 fans who take a single incident and judge via that. I suspect if Whitmarsh spent 10 years in africa helping kids you'd still find a way to fault him
.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is 30hp?
>
> Every little helps?
>
As ive said, im pretty sure that difference in HP is a nothing number. If Horner came out and said the Merc had x amount of torque over x amount of rev range and the Renault this, then there could well be a cause for concern. I know nothing about racecar engines, just stuff read in books so if somebody does know ill happy to be corrected if wrong.
>
> Sure.
> Whitmarsh claimed that the team "cost Lewis 2
> seconds" when they screwed up his final pitstop by
> not having his tyres ready. In reality it was at
> least 4 seconds they cost him(not enough to affect
> the final result IMO, but he was still talking
> bollocks.) Ted Kravitz then suggested otherwise to
> him, and he continued to disagree and maintain the
> "2 seconds" line. If you read the relevant page of
> the Valencia 2009 thread, you'll see the reaction
> of some of the regulars here which summed up
> Whitmarsh's comments pretty well TBH.
> My point being, it was exactly the same kind of BS
> he pulled in Melbourne - just over a less serious
> matter.
I dont understand.
4 seconds, 2seconds. It didnt have an effect either way. If he was lying he was lying to himself or he cant count. Its not like that lie has effected the race result or the race itself is it? Its like when JB says he made a mistake which cost x tenths. Half the time I dont believe him, it doesnt effect what is what but if it makes him happy then why not?
I dont know why that instant can be used as an example, it seems like ... nothing? but if those 2seconds are important to some people then who am I to argue?
What you mean is it is the best proof of Whitmarsh being a lying cheating bastard, and you wanted to neutralise the possibility of that being brought up by singling it out and asking us not to use it. No dice.
I simply singled out an instance the whole world knows because I didnt need to be reminded of it. I was curious of other instances of which has labelled him a lying cheating bastard. You know other instances which may have effect race results, or even FP results! Aus was a major blot on his CV and he wont live it down, and rightly so. It was terrible. But unlike say Flav who you could argue a number of instances of, "is that legal or not" or with Ron the number of orchestrated changes in posistion or even sky-gate where Lewis, engineers and Alonso, were all cheating bastards.
I'm really getting tired of this bullsh*t. When Lewis and Rubens whine, they are just passionate. They are showing emotion, and it is applauded. When Horner, Alonso or Ferrari whine, they get told to shut up. F1 fans will play both sides of the field, whilst moaning about people moaning. Man the f**k up - Horner is doing his job and trying to get his team further up the grid using LEGAL AVENUES. Something Whitmarsh needs to learn more about.
Related to me or general?
Because if aimed at me, go back and read the comments about Rubens moaning ...
With regards to Alonso, i think all I said was he should probably concentrate on his own race rather than another drivers!
I understand Horner is doing the best for his team, but must I repeat it more than once??
He's describing figures which are MEANINGLESS. Unless he gets real engine data from each engine and shows the FIA this standardised engine thing is bollocks (which it is!) he has no argument at all. The Renault might down on power but its up in other areas im sure!
Its like a car. Well its got @#$%& loads of downforce, oh but wait its got quite abit of drag too .... Its a compramise!
THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN UNLESS WE HAVE A SINGLE ENGINE SUPPLIER. That is a fact. Right or wrong? Its common @#$%& sense. Each engine will perform differently CAR TO CAR. Why ahve Sauber had so many engine failures????
Something Whitmarsh needs to learn more about.
Your getting tired of BS?
Me too! Im tired of the F1 fans who take a single incident and judge via that. I suspect if Whitmarsh spent 10 years in africa helping kids you'd still find a way to fault him
."Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
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