2010 Formula 1™ Chinese GP THREAD **SPOILERS**

Quote
Slash
1. why didn't Hamilton got a penalty for pushing Vettel out of t-16 at the restart?, is Stewart and Herber still doing stewards job?, that would explain some stuff, won't it?

It was Wurz doing the stewarding today. To be fair to Hamilton, it was Vettel on his inside giving him little choice. Vettel was supposed to be behind him, but made it 3 wide with Hamilton and Webber (who was the guy pushed off). Both Vettel and Hamilton were in the wrong, but I can't see how you can punish either.

Quote
Slash
ps: abaout the penalty, rules clearly state as ww know that you're not suppossed to overtake anybody before the start/finish line... not only did he overtake Vettel, but he pushed him wide, Hamilton that is...

It's not the start line any more. It's the first safety car line (which at Shanghai is apparently before the final corner), which is why Hamilton and Vettel weren't penalised for the move on the restart.

I'm more annoyed at the safety car itself. It very much looked like a caution to close up the field and obliterated the leads Button, Rosberg, Kubica and Petrov had built up. The little bit of front wing was a nice excuse and little more for me. Pleased one of those 4 drivers managed to win, but I'd imagine Renault will be fuming.


Regarding the pit stops, McLaren released Hamilton around half a second after RBR released Vettel. He shouldn't get a penalty for that. He might well get a penalty for going side-by-side with Vettel and more importantly going sideways pointing directly at the Williams mechanics, which was pure recklessness. Using past rulings he should be punished for cutting across the white line on entry too (not his second one when he was alongside Vettel, but when he cut across the gravel).

Well done for Jenson, but Hamilton should get penalty. He entered the pit from the grass!? What if one of the others comes in in that moment? Crash? And he overtaked the Red Bull during the safety car period.

C'mon. This is ridiculous.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > 1. why didn't Hamilton got a penalty for pushing
> Vettel out of t-16 at the restart?, is Stewart and
> Herber still doing stewards job?, that would
> explain some stuff, won't it?
>
>
> It was Wurz doing the stewarding today. To be fair
> to Hamilton, it was Vettel on his inside giving
> him little choice. Vettel was supposed to be
> behind him, but made it 3 wide with Hamilton and
> Webber (who was the guy pushed off). Both Vettel
> and Hamilton were in the wrong, but I can't see
> how you can punish either.
>
>
>
> ps: abaout the penalty, rules clearly state as ww
> know that you're not suppossed to overtake anybody
> before the start/finish line... not only did he
> overtake Vettel, but he pushed him wide, Hamilton
> that is...
>
>
> It's not the start line any more. It's the first
> safety car line (which at Shanghai is apparently
> before the final corner), which is why Hamilton
> and Vettel weren't penalised for the move on the
> restart.
>
> I'm more annoyed at the safety car itself. It very
> much looked like a caution to close up the field
> and obliterated the leads Button, Rosberg, Kubica
> and Petrov had built up. The little bit of front
> wing was a nice excuse and little more for me.
> Pleased one of those 4 drivers managed to win, but
> I'd imagine Renault will be fuming.
>
>
> Regarding the pit stops, McLaren released Hamilton
> around half a second after RBR released Vettel. He
> shouldn't get a penalty for that. He might well
> get a penalty for going side-by-side with Vettel
> and more importantly going sideways pointing
> directly at the Williams mechanics, which was pure
> recklessness. Using past rulings he should be
> punished for cutting across the white line on
> entry too (not his second one when he was
> alongside Vettel, but when he cut across the
> gravel).


ok gav, thx for clearing that up... yeah the pit lane move was also a bit close, but we've seen some similar moves before with no penalty at all, just some stupid warning... not that he shouldn't be penalised for it, but i wouldn't be surprised if it just ends in anorther useless warning... you can get away with it lately as we've seen

So why the *#*( do the stewards investigate crap after the race... They should effect the race in which the incident occurs, not the next...
Hamilton should get some sort of penalty for his stupid pit-lane incidents.
Button should get a penalty for his stupid safety car restart going into the hairpin.

Just need to add a bit of water to the races and all sorts of stuff happens =D



GPGSL WDC Season 4

Quote
SpaceAce
So why the *#*( do the stewards investigate crap after the race... They should effect the race in which the incident occurs, not the next...

Agreed, but they'll want to talk with the drivers. It's best to make the right decision in the end rather than hastily arriving at a conclusion, and if that means waiting to talk to the parties involved, then so be it.

I don't think they can adjust the results though - any penalty now has to be given for the next race (most likely a grid penalty).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2010 11:57AM by gav.

Alonso should also be investigated or given a warning about dangerous driving on pitlane entry, he almost pushed Massa out and he wasnt even inside the white lines.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > So why the *#*( do the stewards investigate crap
> after the race... They should effect the race in
> which the incident occurs, not the next...
>
>
> Agreed, but they'll want to talk with the drivers.
> It's best to make the right decision in the end
> rather than hastily arriving at a conclusion, and
> if that means waiting to talk to the parties
> involved, then so be it.
>
> I don't think they can adjust the results though -
> any penalty now has to be given for the next race
> (most likely a grid penalty).


So Lewis can lie again



GPGSL WDC Season 4

Apparently Marc Gene said the white lines don't mean anything, but that directly contradicts Valancia 2008, when Alonso was fined for cutting across them in the practice.

I don't mind the Hamilton vs Vettel and Alonso vs Massa incidents - they're normal racing with no danger, and if you're asleep enough to let someone through, then tough. More dodgy is Hamilton cutting across half the run-off and the gravel in order to make the pit-lane.



//edit: One more thing I've remembered. I've not checked back, but before they pitted under the first safety car, I'd swear Vettel slowed behind Webber in order to minimise the time he lost by queuing in the pits. Allowing that was wiped out a few years back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2010 12:17PM by gav.

SpaceAce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Button should get a penalty for his stupid safety
> car restart going into the hairpin.


Button didn't do anything wrong.


As for Vettel & Hamilton. It was a simple racing incident slow mo shows the releasing was within in a second, and when they released Hamilton the McLaren Lollipop guy when releasing didn't see Vettel on the actual pit lane, he was still leaving his box.

After that both as silly as each other....Hamilton should have slotted behind Vettel, and Vettel shouldn't have tried to push Lewis into the Wheel jack lines of other pit boxes.

If they must punish, push them both back 2 grid places behind for Barca.

Andy

ATL11 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SpaceAce Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Button should get a penalty for his stupid
> safety
> > car restart going into the hairpin.
>
>
> Button didn't do anything wrong.
>
>
> As for Vettel & Hamilton. It was a simple racing
> incident slow mo shows the releasing was within in
> a second, and when they released Hamilton the
> McLaren Lollipop guy when releasing didn't see
> Vettel on the actual pit lane, he was still
> leaving his box.
>
> After that both as silly as each other....Hamilton
> should have slotted behind Vettel, and Vettel
> shouldn't have tried to push Lewis into the Wheel
> jack lines of other pit boxes.
>
> If they must punish, push them both back 2 grid
> places behind for Barca.


Martin summed it up...
Article 40.11(as far as i remember), when the lead man take control from the safety car he must stay constant (i.e. not accelerate and break rapidly) and not do anything that is dangerous and could affect other drivers.

I'm pretty sure almost stopping in the hairpin breaks that....



GPGSL WDC Season 4

Quote
FIA Regulation 40.11
40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

There you are



GPGSL WDC Season 4

Did he erratically brake or accelerate? No.
Did he endanger other drivers? In a safety sense, no. In one of potentially having cars banging wheels and damaging them? Maybe.
Did he impede anyone? No.

I can understand the issues raised, but the problem was the location of the safety car line and perhaps how late they turned off the safety car lights. Button would have ideally slowed further down the straight, but he'd have horribly cold tyres and brakes as they weren't given sufficient notice to warm their tyres and brakes - and cold brakes can be a big danger, as Liuzzi vividly showed at the start. Remember Button, Rosberg and Kubica had to wait 2 minutes or so longer than the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel.

im sorry but am i the only person that realises hamilton went wrong direction when he missed the pitlane entry , this is one of the most stupid things you can do in motorsport .

surely there is a fia regulation about driving the correct direction around the track??

It was not a rapid change of though. It was steady, and Nico and the others behind were ready, it was just the racey lot behind... In the end it caused no issue, and is a minor offence to punish... Id be supprised to see him get a penalty.

As for the Lewis/Alonso moves then the Vettel pushing wide well for a start we can all name 100 incidents gone unpunished where drivers have gained by being outside the defined track boundaries. Then again I can name the Valencia Button incident where to avoid a collision with Alonso Button skipped the chicane and got a penalty.

Still, it was pure racing incident. Neither Lewis or Alonso should be punished. If so then I just cant help but think of Massa's and Kubica's battle at Fuji where neither paid any respect to what and where the track is. What I did not like was Vettel pushing Lewis wide, despite having all the room in the world on his left.. bad move.

On Button's race as a whole, who can doubt his ability now?? As a race driver he is nothing short of awesome, and now I would say rivals Alonso as being a complete race driver, he is quick when he needs to be, cautious when he needs to be, he reads a race perfectly, he reads the conditions perfectly and from that he has made decisions which have won him races. Why did he go to Mclaren? To win. I will admit, once Lewis passed Nico I got scared, but then watching Button pull away from Lewis just stunned me... 3-1 in qualifying, 2-2 in the race, and so far in terms of outright fastest qualifying laps, the difference between Lewis and Button is the smallest gap of all team-mates. Lewis has bought and will bring more out of Button. And likewise Button will do the same for Lewis. In the end Lewis will still come out on top in my opinion but so far, 4 races in Button has fit into Mclaren like he was born for that team. If anyone told me that Button would win 2 from 4 races and Lewis just 2 podiums I would have laughed. I still know that 100% for raw pace Lewis blitzes Button, and well everyone bar Vettel IMO but as a race driver Button is sensational.

ps - awesome race.

Petrov... I like him! Also the Schumacher and Lewis battle... I felt Lewis gave him more respect that needed. Kinda seems strange, imo what I saw was the young kid not wanting to make it look easy getting past the old veteren who many admire and look upto !

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2010 12:41PM by chet.

If you listen to the video feed of Button's car when coming into the corner he didn't erratically stop he just slowed down earlier before the corner, he's allowed to do that....

Andy

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did he erratically brake or accelerate? No.
> Did he endanger other drivers? In a safety sense,
> no. In one of potentially having cars banging
> wheels and damaging them? Maybe.
> Did he impede anyone? No.
>
> I can understand the issues raised, but the
> problem was the location of the safety car line
> and perhaps how late they turned off the safety
> car lights. Button would have ideally slowed
> further down the straight, but he'd have horribly
> cold tyres and brakes as they weren't given
> sufficient notice to warm their tyres and brakes -
> and cold brakes can be a big danger, as Liuzzi
> vividly showed at the start. Remember Button,
> Rosberg and Kubica had to wait 2 minutes or so
> longer than the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and
> Vettel.

The fact cars were swerving to miss each other, Lewis even having to go onto the grass tends to suggest that it was not what is suppose to be the new safety car is meant to do...



GPGSL WDC Season 4

SpaceAge - Cars swerved cause they weren't concentrating on what the car in front of them was doing........something we all do on the M6 most days without any problems, and we drive even slower when stuck in traffic........

The stewards have a 20 minute window after the event and review to see if there is any cause to penalise. This has well passed, and we can talk about it until the cows come home. It was one of those things in racing. Charlie may have a chat with Jenson later when they are all stuck in their respective Hotels but nothing more.

Andy

Button slowed to a certain speed. There's nothing to stop everyone else slowing to that same speed.

He cannot be held accountable for others being caught out and pushing each other onto the grass, just as others couldn't be held accountable for him being caught out and crashing into the wall at Monza in 2000.


Chet, keep in mind that with both races where Button has beaten Lewis, he's done so through strategy calls in less than ideal conditions. While that too is part of your ability, every other race isn't going to be damp or rely on a knife-edge strategy call. He's still lagged quite badly behind Hamilton in the 2 'normal' races we've had this year.

Both Hamilton and Vettel have been reprimanded regarding the pit-lane incident(s). Suffice to say that Alonso now cannot be given anything worse than a reprimand too then (though presumably the Hamilton vs Vettel investigation wasn't even debating the pit entry, and as far as I'm aware, Alonso wasn't being investigated officially, just called to comment on it.

i disagree with the button stuff, although HE was still moving at at least 2 mp/h he must of known that people behind him, due to the nature of that hairpin, would of had to stop, and that in itself is not sporting behaviour

im not saying strip him of his win or anything stupid,

but an aknowledgement that about 5 cars came to a standstill and 3 went on the grass would be nice

im surprised lewis didnt have a moan at him because if you watch the incident actually forced lewis off the circuit completely

back in the day when schumi would back up excessively even HE didn't cause anybody to stop he usually did the slowing down on a straight where at least everybody could keep moving.

plus referring back to what brundle said fia rule 40.11 or whatever.

it is CLEARLY stated what he did was illegal in the eyes of the rules

its not like what hamilton did to petrov in malaysia which was just a breach of a verbal agreement with drivers,

what jenson did clearly breached the fia formula 1 championship rulebook.


?