Does anyone else think...
Posted by ralv585
that whoever wins the world championship isn't really worthy?
i mean, not in a bad way, whoever comes out on top does deserve to win, but you can't really look at them next year and convincingly say that he is the world champion.
what i'm getting at is that, from the last decade, there hasn't been anyone who hasn't really deserved it.
mika, schumi, alonso, raikkonen, hamilton, when they all won, it was convincing, solid season, consistant and against top competition.
if you look at this year, if jenson carried on his first half of the season, we could all say that he is the world champion, but he's fallen apart. i'm 100% sure alonso, kimi and hamilton would have kept it together.
i hope you know what i'm getting at, it just feels this years champion will be the default champion, because the big boys didn't have the cars to compete.
what do you think?
i mean, not in a bad way, whoever comes out on top does deserve to win, but you can't really look at them next year and convincingly say that he is the world champion.
what i'm getting at is that, from the last decade, there hasn't been anyone who hasn't really deserved it.
mika, schumi, alonso, raikkonen, hamilton, when they all won, it was convincing, solid season, consistant and against top competition.
if you look at this year, if jenson carried on his first half of the season, we could all say that he is the world champion, but he's fallen apart. i'm 100% sure alonso, kimi and hamilton would have kept it together.
i hope you know what i'm getting at, it just feels this years champion will be the default champion, because the big boys didn't have the cars to compete.
what do you think?
I'm inclined to agree with you here Ralv. To me it's not like any of the top drivers in the title race have put together a campaign worthy of a Championship win. Jenson's has been the most convincing of course, but since Turkey he hasn't driven like a title contender at all IMO, and it looks like he'll just manage to fall over the line after staggering up to it. He has managed to consistently score points all year in a situation where the points system makes consistency vitally important, but that's all you can say about his season so far as a whole.
While that is getting the job done, it's hardly an impressive way of doing it. He started out well, but his form took a dive when his car stopped being the best and easiest to drive. He hasn't shown the ability to "find another gear" that all the best drivers have.
Rubens has had an awkward season, partly due to circumstances out of his control and partly due to his own mistakes, etc. You can hardly call his season Champion elect quality either. But if he did end up winning it somehow now, it would take an impressive comeback, and something truly exceptional from Rubens to pull it off.
Whatever happens, the Champion this year has hardly done the most convincing job to get there I think.
While that is getting the job done, it's hardly an impressive way of doing it. He started out well, but his form took a dive when his car stopped being the best and easiest to drive. He hasn't shown the ability to "find another gear" that all the best drivers have.
Rubens has had an awkward season, partly due to circumstances out of his control and partly due to his own mistakes, etc. You can hardly call his season Champion elect quality either. But if he did end up winning it somehow now, it would take an impressive comeback, and something truly exceptional from Rubens to pull it off.
Whatever happens, the Champion this year has hardly done the most convincing job to get there I think.
Hamilton? what season did you watch. i'm a huge Lewis fanboy but last season certainly wasnt convincing.
But he won because he was the best guy over teh course of teh season. And seeing as Jenson has won 6 races, and no one else has won more than 2, i can say he thoroughly deserves it if he wins. But that will also mean anyone else who beats him to it this year would also be deserving because he won 6 races and they didnt.
Sim
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"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole
But he won because he was the best guy over teh course of teh season. And seeing as Jenson has won 6 races, and no one else has won more than 2, i can say he thoroughly deserves it if he wins. But that will also mean anyone else who beats him to it this year would also be deserving because he won 6 races and they didnt.
Sim
All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!
"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole
"i'm 100% sure alonso, kimi and hamilton would have kept it together."
But how would you know that?
for example in 2008 Raikkonen scored 35 of his 75 points in the first 5 races and then 22 in the next 10
sure Barrichello is performing a lot better relative to Button right now but i've always thought that there isn't such a huge difference between them and the first half of the year was more an aberration
and as you may have noted this isn't your average season for one reason or another is very hard to maintain form
[www.autosport.com]
Button has done good enough for recognition over here
But how would you know that?
for example in 2008 Raikkonen scored 35 of his 75 points in the first 5 races and then 22 in the next 10
sure Barrichello is performing a lot better relative to Button right now but i've always thought that there isn't such a huge difference between them and the first half of the year was more an aberration
and as you may have noted this isn't your average season for one reason or another is very hard to maintain form
[www.autosport.com]
Button has done good enough for recognition over here
buttons done a great job, his first 7 races were flawless, his last 7 races have been abysmal.
if he'd managed to pop in the odd podium in between the last 7 races, my opinion would be different.
he seems to have lost it.
"i'm 100% sure alonso, kimi and hamilton would have kept it together."
"But how would you know that?"
we both know alonso would have done, when has he ever lost it?
kimi from 2003 to 2007 would have.
as for kimi in 08, he was still in with a chance up until valencia, after that and his crash at spa, i'm sure he just gave up, the last few races in 09 shows that he's still got it if he want to produce the goods.
hamilton, he did his best to throw the championship away both times, but this was down to driver error, pushing over the limits, not someone who has lost confidence.
sure lewis' season wasn't as consistent as it could have been, but at every race you knew he would be in contention for the win or the podium, you just don't feel like that with button or any of the contenders.
of course you can add that the progress of mclaren and ferrari have made are making it more difficult for the brawn to win, but they still do have an advantage on the field, and the driver should exploit it, but he's not.
like ec83 has said, it feels like the winner will stumble across the line.
don't get me wrong, whoever wins will be a deserving champion as they driven the season better than anyone else, for me personally, the way its gone and the amount of poor driving can not warrant the true world champion status in my mind
if he'd managed to pop in the odd podium in between the last 7 races, my opinion would be different.
he seems to have lost it.
"i'm 100% sure alonso, kimi and hamilton would have kept it together."
"But how would you know that?"
we both know alonso would have done, when has he ever lost it?
kimi from 2003 to 2007 would have.
as for kimi in 08, he was still in with a chance up until valencia, after that and his crash at spa, i'm sure he just gave up, the last few races in 09 shows that he's still got it if he want to produce the goods.
hamilton, he did his best to throw the championship away both times, but this was down to driver error, pushing over the limits, not someone who has lost confidence.
sure lewis' season wasn't as consistent as it could have been, but at every race you knew he would be in contention for the win or the podium, you just don't feel like that with button or any of the contenders.
of course you can add that the progress of mclaren and ferrari have made are making it more difficult for the brawn to win, but they still do have an advantage on the field, and the driver should exploit it, but he's not.
like ec83 has said, it feels like the winner will stumble across the line.
don't get me wrong, whoever wins will be a deserving champion as they driven the season better than anyone else, for me personally, the way its gone and the amount of poor driving can not warrant the true world champion status in my mind
If Jenson wins it I think I'd feel the same way I would have had Irvine won in 1999...
Jenson is just going to be Hill No.2
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
Jenson is just going to be Hill No.2
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
If Jenson's wins had been spread out over a whole season instead of coming all at once, everyone would be saying that he's by far the most deserving winner.
He is one for a better points total than MS in '03, Alonso in '05, Kimi in '07 and Hamilton in '08. So unless you feel that none of these are worhty champions either, your argument falls down.
You have been spoilt by watching Schumacher and Hakkinen take Championships with season-long dominance. For many years before them, and many years after, nobody has a perfect season and Championships are won like Hamilton last year or Button (potentially) this year. Jenson's title is no better or no worse.
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He is one for a better points total than MS in '03, Alonso in '05, Kimi in '07 and Hamilton in '08. So unless you feel that none of these are worhty champions either, your argument falls down.
You have been spoilt by watching Schumacher and Hakkinen take Championships with season-long dominance. For many years before them, and many years after, nobody has a perfect season and Championships are won like Hamilton last year or Button (potentially) this year. Jenson's title is no better or no worse.
Actually, let me put it another way:
The World Champion is the best combination of car & driver across a whole season. Someone's got to win it. If the drivers whom you regard as "the best" don't have the car to compete, then they obviously don't "deserve" to win either, correct?
IMHO the best combination of car and driver is a tangible thing that is not influenced in the slightest by any notion of "deserving". Jenson + Brawn has been a better season-long combination than Kimi + Ferrari, therefore the Button/Brawn combination is more deserving.
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Please find us on [en.wikipedia.org] for more information.
The World Champion is the best combination of car & driver across a whole season. Someone's got to win it. If the drivers whom you regard as "the best" don't have the car to compete, then they obviously don't "deserve" to win either, correct?
IMHO the best combination of car and driver is a tangible thing that is not influenced in the slightest by any notion of "deserving". Jenson + Brawn has been a better season-long combination than Kimi + Ferrari, therefore the Button/Brawn combination is more deserving.
I’m not saying whoever wins the championship is undeserving, it’s just that they’ve managed to do the best of a bad job.
Like locke said, if the wins were spread over the season, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
@ferrari2007 exactly what I was thinking, I was going to post that last night, but couldn’t be bothered to turn on my pc again.
It’s like going into a new season, knowing that Irvine is the champion over mika and schumi, it just doesn’t feel right.
I guess that’s what I’m getting at, whoever wins will be a deserving champion, but it just wouldn’t feel right calling them that after the season we’ve had.
“He is one for a better points total than MS in '03, Alonso in '05, Kimi in '07 and Hamilton in '08. So unless you feel that none of these are worhty champions either, your argument falls down.”
It doesn’t matter if he does end up having a larger points total, it’s all down to perception. As I see it, button will stumble across the line, competing against the weakest opponents (rubens – perpetual no.2, webber – never considered a top driver and vettel – potential to be great) compare that to the other seasons where they fought tooth and nail against each other (schumi 03 = Montoya – when he was raw and fast, kimi – on it, Alonso 05 = kimi near his peak, kimi 07 = Alonso - fresh double wc, lewis – best rookie ever , lewis 08 = massa - now regarded as one of the best.
Like locke said, if the wins were spread over the season, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
@ferrari2007 exactly what I was thinking, I was going to post that last night, but couldn’t be bothered to turn on my pc again.
It’s like going into a new season, knowing that Irvine is the champion over mika and schumi, it just doesn’t feel right.
I guess that’s what I’m getting at, whoever wins will be a deserving champion, but it just wouldn’t feel right calling them that after the season we’ve had.
“He is one for a better points total than MS in '03, Alonso in '05, Kimi in '07 and Hamilton in '08. So unless you feel that none of these are worhty champions either, your argument falls down.”
It doesn’t matter if he does end up having a larger points total, it’s all down to perception. As I see it, button will stumble across the line, competing against the weakest opponents (rubens – perpetual no.2, webber – never considered a top driver and vettel – potential to be great) compare that to the other seasons where they fought tooth and nail against each other (schumi 03 = Montoya – when he was raw and fast, kimi – on it, Alonso 05 = kimi near his peak, kimi 07 = Alonso - fresh double wc, lewis – best rookie ever , lewis 08 = massa - now regarded as one of the best.
Everyone deserves their title!
Undeserving WC? Firstly i must address that. Hes won 6 races, 4 more this season than anyone else, i would say thats not undeserving, thats more than many other champions have won in a season.
Also i would have to say Jenson's performances haven't dropped up as such its simply to do with the field bunching up in raw pace in the car. Before it was Brawn vs Red Bull - and Button dominated. Now everyone has caught up and you can only perform as well as the car will let you (without spinning off into a wall, or breaking all the gearboxes etc).
In other news while Hamilton won last year, and did very well that doesnt make him deserving.... Does that make Kimi worthy champ in 2007? Alonso in 2005? In fact, what makes a champion 'worthy'?? There isnt such a thing as an unworthy champion in my view, in any sport really....
Also i would have to say Jenson's performances haven't dropped up as such its simply to do with the field bunching up in raw pace in the car. Before it was Brawn vs Red Bull - and Button dominated. Now everyone has caught up and you can only perform as well as the car will let you (without spinning off into a wall, or breaking all the gearboxes etc).
In other news while Hamilton won last year, and did very well that doesnt make him deserving.... Does that make Kimi worthy champ in 2007? Alonso in 2005? In fact, what makes a champion 'worthy'?? There isnt such a thing as an unworthy champion in my view, in any sport really....
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