Renault suspended from European GP

Paul Boy Wrote:
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> I would say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the cover to
> cause the wheel nut to come loose. The thread on
> the Right hand side is right hand thread, and
> therefore the wheel/cover rotating would actually
> tighten up the wheel nut.
>
> (i think you'll find the thread on the left hand
> wheel hubs are left hand thread for this very
> reason)


No, doesn't work quite as easily as that. The cover is not a perfectly circular object, and therefore doesn't rotate smoothly. It would vibrate around and cause the entire corner to be vibrating. You can't cover that with a blanket like that. It just isn't that simple.

The part that the wheel is attached to (what's that in English? )

The hub?

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> No. Both Albers and Massa were TOLD to stop at the
> end of the pitlane because it was obvious there
> was a major problem. Alonso said he wasn't aware
> there was a major issue until turn 1.

Fair enough but surely the team should have told Alonso to stop once they saw something was wrong? Bearing in mind the reason for the penalty is that the competitor knowlingly released car no. 7 from the pit stop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel nuts being securely in position.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Doesn't matter. Rules were broken and safety was
> much more compromised than Alonsos situation. Cars
> have been penalised for less than that before.

Totally agreed I wasn't defending the fact he was released into traffic, just stating at why the stewards possibly didn't penalise him (another sign of their inconsistency).


On a comedic sidenote, Ive just found out that one of this weekends stewards is none other than Mohammed Ben Sulayem LOL! Remember that guy who did the drag race in the Renault F1 and put it in the wall? He certainly knows a thing or two about wheels falling off a Renault...

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Circuit Thermalito

Liverpool Waterfront Circuit (WIP)

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Paul Boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I would say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the cover
> to
> > cause the wheel nut to come loose. The thread
> on
> > the Right hand side is right hand thread, and
> > therefore the wheel/cover rotating would
> actually
> > tighten up the wheel nut.
> >
> > (i think you'll find the thread on the left
> hand
> > wheel hubs are left hand thread for this very
> > reason)
>
>
> No, doesn't work quite as easily as that. The
> cover is not a perfectly circular object, and
> therefore doesn't rotate smoothly. It would
> vibrate around and cause the entire corner to be
> vibrating. You can't cover that with a blanket
> like that. It just isn't that simple.
>
> The part that the wheel is attached to (what's
> that in English? )
>
> The hub?

Yep, the cover is part of the wheel nut. IF the nut was put on properly nothing can/would make it come loose (even an non circular wheel cover spinning in the same direction as the thread)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 11:07PM by Paul Boy.

Bearing in mind the reason for the penalty is that the competitor knowlingly released car no. 7 from the pit stop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel nuts being securely in position.

And I take it retiring from the mistake wasn't penalty enough? It isn't like they tried to gain something from it - unlike RBR who released Webber into the path of another car in order to gain position. I'd love to see a rule which states that the appropriate penalty for retiring from a pit error is suspending the entire team. Webbers situation was far more dangerous, and they get to go home with a podium.

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I can see what you're getting at Dave but the fact they let Alonso go around the track, knowing he had a loose wheel, and didn't tell him to stop the car is pretty bad. Especially considering the death of Surtees and Massa's current position. Yes, once again, I agree with you that Webber was released into traffic and that wasn't correct, and it should have been investigated

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Liverpool Waterfront Circuit (WIP)

I can see what you're getting at Dave but the fact they let Alonso go around the track, knowing he had a loose wheel, and didn't tell him to stop the car is pretty bad.

No, it isn't. In fact it is normal. They have never been penalised for that. Heidfeld 3 wheeling it, Kimis exhaust. Hell, go back 10 years - Alesi drove half a race with his onboard camera flapping about. Nobody did anything.

This sort of thing has NEVER been penalised. And now it's a suspension because of a freak accident? That is a disgraceful attitude to have.

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If another person had been killed today because of Alonso's loose wheel, would you still have the same opinion as you do now? In light of recent events, the FIA have to take a zero tolerance approach on incidents like this. That's my opinion anyways lets not fight. We've had enough of that here in the past lol.

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Circuit Thermalito

Liverpool Waterfront Circuit (WIP)

I've looked through the Sporting Regulations and I've found this:

30.13 If a driver has serious mechanical difficulties he must leave the track as soon as it is safe to do so.

If the stewards decide to penalise Alonso, why not based on this rule? This rule is much more compliant to the situation since a wheel that's about to come off is quite a serious mechanical difficulty IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 11:30PM by Nickv.

If another person had been killed today because of Alonso's loose wheel, would you still have the same opinion as you do now?

Yes. I don't make knee jerk reactions.

You cannot pick and choose when rules are applied. The FIA have NEVER penalised this and are only doing so now because of a couple of freak accidents that have never happened in god knows how many years, in countless open wheel series around the world.

In light of recent events

So it is ok until someone gets hurt. But it isn't dangerous until someone gets hurt.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of the bullsh*t calls. NASCAR today was a f**king joke. Grand-Am last week was a f**king joke. The FIA is consistently proving to be a f**king joke. Straw that broke the camels back tbh. I just want to see some racing, without some f**king moron in a board room thinking he knows better than everyone screwing with the results.

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I wrote something here



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2009 01:14AM by Monza972.

Err, there's been loose wheels in F1 for time immemorable. It's a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction by the FIA to ban Renault. Incredibly bad reaction actually. And it's nothing else. There is absolutely no way would this penalty have been applied any other weekend. Grand, drivers have been killed/injured in the last week by flying debris. Drivers also have been killed previously in perfectly healthy cars driving unmolested by debris/whatever round tracks. Should we stop drivers from racing around tracks, in case one of them gets killed?

I dunno if Alonso's plight could be regarded as serious mechanical difficulties. It's a repairable problem. It's not like Vettel's case where the suspension was buggered. I, personally, don't agree that a driver should have to retire if they're about to lose a wheel and can have it replaced. People can argue that they should on safety grounds if they want, but that's not for me. It's getting to the point where F1 is expected to be less dangerous than driving to the shops. If it gets to that stage I might just try driving to the shops instead, cause it might give me a bigger rush.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2009 02:04PM by The Lopper.

Well.

There it looks like definitely will have some loss of quality in the grid for Valencia without Felipe and Fernando.

That wheel covers is a piece of crap!, doesnt help those drivers at all time. they should remove it! its ugly and dangerous to be kept using forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd also like to see the wheel covers go - just in general.
I don't get this "knowingly" bollocks though. As if Renault told its pitcrew "alright lads, as rehearsed, remember, we can save bundles of time if we don't do up the wheel nuts!"...?

There were several incidents in 94 that spring to mind - Michele Alboreto's Minardi shedding one of its wheels in the pitlane at Imola - it hit several mechanics and many of them had to go to hospital. Minardi weren't thrown out of the following Grand Prix, despite "knowingly" releasing him with a loose wheel. Hockenheim - Benetton really did knowingly try to cut a few corners with the refuelling system and nearly burned Jos Verstappen and its pitcrew alive. If I remember rightly they raced under appeal and were eventually cleared. I don't know exactly. At any rate they scored a 1-3 at the following Grand Prix.

What else is there? Zinardi's (albeit brief) attempt to carry on at Imola in 93 with most of the rear of his car destroyed and on fire. Vettel's stunt has already been mentioned. Schumacher insisted on driving back to the pits at Spa after crashing into Coulthard - okay, the wheel was already long gone but there was still a mortally wounded car limping back to the pits in appalling driving conditions (but then, Coulthard limped back to the pits as well). Kimi driving about with a dangling exhaust pipe at France has been mentioned already too. And what about any driver's attempt to continue either in the race or back to the pits with a partially dislodged front wing? That might suddenly fly off and cause all manner of hazards. I'm not being flippant, a collapsing front wing caused Roland Ratzenberger's crash. But are all drivers to immediately pull over and stop if their cars are damaged or struggling? I'd say most of them will instinctively try and get their cars back to the pits so they can be repaired, and will likely honestly believe that the damaged section will stay attached right until the moment their back in the pit box or it actually does fall off.

I'm glad Renault have appealed, hopefully they are successful in overturning this penalty's ludicrous severity. Besides which, whether Piquet was going to be at Valencia or not, its hardly fair to penalise him for an incident that had nothing to do with him?

If I remember rightly they raced under appeal and were eventually cleared. I don't know exactly.

Pretty much. But that goes for most of 1994. Traction Control was discovered on the Benetton at the French GP, but it couldn't be proven that it was used, so it was a legal car, so nothing got done. That entire season was as corrupt as they come.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> If I remember rightly they raced under appeal and
> were eventually cleared. I don't know exactly.
>
> Pretty much. But that goes for most of 1994.
> Traction Control was discovered on the Benetton at
> the French GP, but it couldn't be proven that it
> was used, so it was a legal car, so nothing got
> done. That entire season was as corrupt as they
> come.

Rather amusingly, i spotted a B194 in the Autosport mag classifieds a year or so ago, with traction control listed amongst the spec.

On topic - if Renault knew that the wheel was loose (which, if the mechanic hadn't even raised his hand to say he was done, they probably were), they deserve to be penalised, even more so if they then failed to tell Alonso. That said, exclusion is way over the top - i would have expected a fine, as it was Renault's fault and not Alonso's.

I fully expect that they will race under appeal, or have the exclusion commuted to a fine. It really smacks of knee-jerking.

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Maybe it's some weird punishment for Flavio deciding to pack his briefcase and leave shortly after Fernando had retired? Maybe not.

It is a stupid decision, most likely about appearing to be responsive. It seems unlikely that Renault knew that the wheel and wheel cover weren't attached at the moment of release. What team would know that and release?

I saw nothing wrong with Webber's release, not just because I'm biased, but because Kimi didn't have to flinch and there was no contact. I wish pit lanes were wider so we could see a genuine acceleration races from their exits.

I saw nothing wrong with Webber's release,

Well it is actually illegal. You cannot release a car either into the path of another car, or into a situation where cars are 2 wide. It is illegal.

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Rather amusingly, i spotted a B194 in the Autosport mag classifieds a year or so ago, with traction control listed amongst the spec

Teh awesome!

mcdo Wrote:
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> Maybe it's some weird punishment for Flavio
> deciding to pack his briefcase and leave shortly
> after Fernando had retired? Maybe not.
>
> It is a stupid decision, most likely about
> appearing to be responsive. It seems unlikely that
> Renault knew that the wheel and wheel cover
> weren't attached at the moment of release. What
> team would know that and release?
>
> I saw nothing wrong with Webber's release, not
> just because I'm biased, but because Kimi didn't
> have to flinch and there was no contact. I wish
> pit lanes were wider so we could see a genuine
> acceleration races from their exits.

That's the problem, though. The FIA has handled two (admittedly hypothetical) situations completely differently:

1. Release of car into the path of another; risk of collision in pitlane = no punishment
2. Release of car with wheel not secured correctly, risk of wheel hitting driver or bystander = entire team banned from race

The point is, there was a risk of harm to people in both situations, and yet the outcome of their investigation doesn't seem to take this into account.

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