Renault suspended from European GP

Quite true, Ed - very valid point.

I still think this is slightly unfair, because surely when the wheel came loose at turn 2 or 3, he (Alonso)would surely know something is up with his wheel, becauase he can see the spinner/wheel cover spinning round, so premusably means the wheel is loose too, considering what happened here?

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Vettel wasn´t punished with a grid penalty for Sepang?? And that happened because Red Bull told to him to continue with the wheel destroyed. The stedwars penalized Vettel and I dont remember if they fined Red Bull... I think they have to do the same to Alonso, or only fine Renault.

msater Wrote:
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> Quite true, Ed - very valid point.
>
> I still think this is slightly unfair, because
> surely when the wheel came loose at turn 2 or 3,
> he (Alonso)would surely know something is up with
> his wheel, becauase he can see the spinner/wheel
> cover spinning round, so premusably means the
> wheel is loose too, considering what happened
> here?


As soon as he came out into T1 it started spinning around.

[www.bbc.co.uk] (From 0:24.45)

Ferrari2007 Wrote:
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> Edit: Also it says they failed to warn him before
> he left the pitlane, but it only became apparent
> something was wrong as Alonso was coming out of
> turn 1

Really? I would say it was quite apparent something was wrong when the right front mechanic was fumbling around trying to get the spinner to stay in place, which the mechanic was still trying to correct as the lollipop man released Alonso.

The penalty is harsh, any other weekend and the most they would have got is a 10 place grid penalty, but Alonso was released while a mechanic was still trying to correct a fault with the car so some kind of penalty was deserved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 08:29PM by TC.

You could argue the same about all the refuelling issues that happen. Massa, Albers, Button... there are hundreds.

Frantic Wrote:
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> Vettel wasn´t punished with a grid penalty for
> Sepang?? And that happened because Red Bull told
> to him to continue with the wheel destroyed. The
> stedwars penalized Vettel and I dont remember if
> they fined Red Bull... I think they have to do the
> same to Alonso, or only fine Renault.


Vettel was punished for causing an avoidable accident. Not for dragging the car about.

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gav Wrote:
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> You could argue the same about all the refuelling
> issues that happen. Massa, Albers, Button... there
> are hundreds.

I could, but the only refuelling issues I can remember either resulted in the driver stopping in the pitlane, very shortly after leaving the pitlane, or the refueling hose coming off as they pulled away so it wasn't really a danger to anyone on track. I also said I think that the punishment was harsh and on any other weekend they would get a 10 place grid penalty at most.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 08:56PM by TC.

or the refueling hose coming off as they pulled away so it wasn't really a danger to anyone on track.

But a MASSIVE danger to everyone in the pit lane. So should actually be a HARSHER punishment.

any other weekend they would get a 10 place grid penalty at most.

Any other weekend they wouldn't have gotten anything. It is ridiculous.

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I can see why they gave out A penalty, but not why they gave out THIS penalty. Possibly it was because of the photographer that was very close to the incident. Had it happened 5 meters later, he could've been hit.

This is absolutely ludicrous, but unsuprising considering recent events. I am just annoyed that in the statement they make it out to be negligence on Renaults part. I however do not think this penalty will actuallly happen, I do think on appeal it will be massively reduced, probably to a fine of some sort.

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As harsh as it may be, we need to know some facts from Renault directly first. If it is actually true that they didn't tell Alonso the wheel wasn't on properly and if they didn't try to stop him in any way, then the team fully deserve the penalty they have been given. The wheel could have flew off in the pitlane and killed god knows how many mechanics. It could have flew off into a grandstand and killed god knows how many spectators. It could have flew off and hit another driver on the head and killed them too. We were extremely lucky that it flew off where it did and didn't hurt anyone at all.

As I said, we need word from Renault first. If they made no effort to stop him then it is a fully justified penalty because the penalty is aimed at the team's lack of communication, not the fact the wheel came off.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 10:23PM by Fincent.

The wheel could have flew off in the pitlane and killed god knows how many mechanics.

And once AGAIN, Massa dragged a fuel hose down the pit lane and gets NOTHING. Sutil dragged a fuel hose down the pit lane and gets NOTHING.

There is NO logically way of trying to justify this penalty. Especially when Red Bull actually violated the rules by releasing Webber into the path of traffic and got nothing. Renault don't break the rules and DO get penalised.

didn't try to stop him

FYI, it is illegal to stop in the fast lane of the pit lane.

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The wheel was on properly. The wheel-cover wasn't locked in place though, and apparently it spinning around undid the nut.

The team couldn't have known immediately anyway. It's not like the guy on the right-front cover can tell the driver. It would have to go through at least 1 other person first.

I know it's the wrong weekend to say this, but how often does a wheel fly off and do anything when out on track? I can only think of incidents where crashes are involved, greatly increasing the energy. I've cannot ever recall a rogue wheel hitting someone outside of the pitlane (and let's face it... it wasn't ever going to come off in the pits).

One thing that I noticed watching the race was that when the wheel faring flew off, it flew off at head height, just as a Toro Rosso was overtaking Alonso. If the Toro Rosso had passed on the other side, he would have been struck in the head just like Massa and Surtees.

I know stray wheels like Alonso's today can be dangerous if they're in the middle of a high speed corner because you might not see it coming, but if it's on a straight then you can easily see them coming and avoid it, unless you're following closely to the car that it falls off.

It's quite strange actually, just a few days before Surtees was killed I saw a video of Raikkonen and Alesi's accident in Suzuka in 2001. There were about two wheels that bounced across the road in the high speed corner, three cars came VERY close to hitting it. The thought of the driver's helmet hitting it scared me. Little did I know what was going to happen in the next few days...

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If it was the wheel cover that caused the tyre to come off, is it possible for Renault to have seen in any way that the wheel was about to come off? I doubt there is telemetry telling you how stable a wheel is. In that sense, Renault can't have known that the tyre would come off and the penalty would be unjustified. However, if Renault could have seen that the tyre would come off and didn't tell Alonso about that, the penalty is at least half right.

On the other side, Heidfeld ran a full lap last year at Barcelona without a wheelnut and didn't get a penalty. Probably because it all went right. But now, because it went wrong, a penalty is given. A penalty should be given for a crime, not for the outcome of it.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> And once AGAIN, Massa dragged a fuel hose down the
> pit lane and gets NOTHING. Sutil dragged a fuel
> hose down the pit lane and gets NOTHING.

The fuel hose has a locking mechanism on it, and took the Ferrari mechanics a hell of a lot of effort to remove from the car. It was nigh on impossible that it was going to come off by itself. Both Albers and Massa had the thought to stop at the end of the pitlane too

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> There is NO logically way of trying to justify
> this penalty. Especially when Red Bull actually
> violated the rules by releasing Webber into the
> path of traffic and got nothing. Renault don't
> break the rules and DO get penalised.

You have a good point there . Webber never actually impeded the traffic or gained any sort of advantage from this incident so I guess that's why he was let off. It should have at least been investigated though.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> FYI, it is illegal to stop in the fast lane of the
> pit lane.

But surely he could pull up at the end of the pitlane like Massa did in Singapore? Surely the team could have got him the information by then if not by the end of the pitlane then at least within the first few corners.

gav Wrote:
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> The wheel was on properly. The wheel-cover wasn't
> locked in place though, and apparently it spinning
> around undid the nut.
>
> The team couldn't have known immediately anyway.
> It's not like the guy on the right-front cover can
> tell the driver. It would have to go through at
> least 1 other person first.
>

The front right wheel mechanic definitely knew about it though. If you look at the live shots, he's clearly not even raised his hand before the car is released, and knows that everything isn't attached properly.

Nickv Wrote:
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> On the other side, Heidfeld ran a full lap last
> year at Barcelona without a wheelnut and didn't
> get a penalty. Probably because it all went right.
> But now, because it went wrong, a penalty is
> given. A penalty should be given for a crime, not
> for the outcome of it.

Very true more consistency is definitely needed! I think it is the stewards taking a zero tolerance approach in the light of recent events.


Before you say anything, I'm not hired by the FIA, lol, and I'm not out to deliberately start arguments. I'm just trying to examine why this decision has been made

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Both Albers and Massa had the thought to stop at the end of the pitlane too

No. Both Albers and Massa were TOLD to stop at the end of the pitlane because it was obvious there was a major problem. Alonso said he wasn't aware there was a major issue until turn 1.

Webber never actually impeded the traffic or gained any sort of advantage from this incident so I guess that's why he was let off.

Doesn't matter. Rules were broken and safety was much more compromised than Alonsos situation. Cars have been penalised for less than that before.

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DaveEllis Wrote:
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> There is NO logically way of trying to justify
> this penalty. Especially when Red Bull actually
> violated the rules by releasing Webber into the
> path of traffic and got nothing.

They have actually gotten a warning for it. Not that that means anything...

gav Wrote:
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> The wheel was on properly. The wheel-cover wasn't
> locked in place though, and apparently it spinning
> around undid the nut.

I would say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the cover to cause the wheel nut to come loose. The thread on the Right hand side is right hand thread, and therefore the wheel/cover rotating would actually tighten up the wheel nut.

(i think you'll find the thread on the left hand wheel hubs are left hand thread for this very reason)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2009 10:59PM by Paul Boy.

It doesn't necessarily have to have been unscrewed. The part that the wheel is attached to (what's that in English? ) could have been bent or at least damaged. Especially since Alonso pulled back in again after getting new tyres on. Something must've felt wrong and that was probably that one part that was damaged and caused the wheelnut and wheel to come off.