FOTA Series
Posted by chet
Nick, you can say that about anyone here the forum dislikes.
Piquet and Allen being the obvious examples, now you know I dont even need to mention how much stick they recieve.
Exagerated?? Im sorry but isnt that just the real world?
Fact is people will not remember Max for the saftey he bought to motorsport, they will just remember the bad aspects, I do, nad well 99% of the people here will.
Teams were too scared to speak out against the FIA. Dictatorship it was. He had to go. How did he manage to show his face after spankgate (it was an embarrasment to F1)? I am a very open minded person but spankgate scared me!!! To think the president of the automotive association did such things was a worry! To me it displayed some sort of mental instability. The decisions he made did not seem well thought out to me. Okay I am one individual behind a screen with very limited resources to judge, but decisions he made had no logic imo.
Exageration is the harsh comments people make about Allen and Piquet.
edit, im going to sound like a right a n*b here (and I apologize!!), but the guy is a freak. Ive not read into it but what did his wife and kids say after spankgate? Thats who I felt sorry for!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2009 11:13PM by chet.
Piquet and Allen being the obvious examples, now you know I dont even need to mention how much stick they recieve.
Exagerated?? Im sorry but isnt that just the real world?
Fact is people will not remember Max for the saftey he bought to motorsport, they will just remember the bad aspects, I do, nad well 99% of the people here will.
Teams were too scared to speak out against the FIA. Dictatorship it was. He had to go. How did he manage to show his face after spankgate (it was an embarrasment to F1)? I am a very open minded person but spankgate scared me!!! To think the president of the automotive association did such things was a worry! To me it displayed some sort of mental instability. The decisions he made did not seem well thought out to me. Okay I am one individual behind a screen with very limited resources to judge, but decisions he made had no logic imo.
Exageration is the harsh comments people make about Allen and Piquet.
edit, im going to sound like a right a n*b here (and I apologize!!), but the guy is a freak. Ive not read into it but what did his wife and kids say after spankgate? Thats who I felt sorry for!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2009 11:13PM by chet.
What a @#$%& child.
Ah yes, the FOTA were real mature in saying 'hooray the dictator has gone'. If the reports on that are true, it's the FOTA themselves who've started all this and Mosley has every right to be pissed. See my earlier blow job example. I mean come on, if you've reached an agreement and immedeatly afterwards you start @#$%& around again, you're really asking for the other side to cancel the agreement.
IMO the FIA/Mosley are completely right in what they're doing in this whole thing. If you want to do it your way, then create your own championship. I can't see why the teams should have as much influence on F1 as they want to. Consumers don't run the supermarket either, or do they? No they don't. Because a) it'd get a mess with so many opions and b) because they can leave the supermarket and switch to another supermarket whenver they like. This exact thing applies on the FOTA/FIA thing. TBH the entire FOTA is a bunch of egos and so is Mosley. So it'll never really work out in the end.
@ Chet: I'm no expert on how the FIA works (I'm a n00b really
), but if Max Mosley truely has all power, then it'd be a disgrace. Any selfrespecting body that wants to have some integrity doesn't have one person ruling everything. The WMSC votes on numerous things. In that light it's democratic. Of course, how much influence Max has on the WMSC very important too. But I guess we'll never know how much influence he has on them.
Ah yes, the FOTA were real mature in saying 'hooray the dictator has gone'. If the reports on that are true, it's the FOTA themselves who've started all this and Mosley has every right to be pissed. See my earlier blow job example. I mean come on, if you've reached an agreement and immedeatly afterwards you start @#$%& around again, you're really asking for the other side to cancel the agreement.
IMO the FIA/Mosley are completely right in what they're doing in this whole thing. If you want to do it your way, then create your own championship. I can't see why the teams should have as much influence on F1 as they want to. Consumers don't run the supermarket either, or do they? No they don't. Because a) it'd get a mess with so many opions and b) because they can leave the supermarket and switch to another supermarket whenver they like. This exact thing applies on the FOTA/FIA thing. TBH the entire FOTA is a bunch of egos and so is Mosley. So it'll never really work out in the end.
@ Chet: I'm no expert on how the FIA works (I'm a n00b really
), but if Max Mosley truely has all power, then it'd be a disgrace. Any selfrespecting body that wants to have some integrity doesn't have one person ruling everything. The WMSC votes on numerous things. In that light it's democratic. Of course, how much influence Max has on the WMSC very important too. But I guess we'll never know how much influence he has on them.so wanting to be part of a rule making process is now trying to take control of F1?
APPENDIX 5
RULE CHANGES
1. Changes to the Technical Regulations will be proposed by the Technical Working Group (TWG) consisting of one senior technical representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the FIA.
2. Changes to the Sporting Regulations will be proposed by the Sporting Working Group (SWG) consisting of one senior representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the FIA.
3. Decisions in the TWG and SWG will be taken by a simple majority vote. The FIA representative will not vote unless the teams’ representatives are equally divided, in which case he will exercise a casting vote.
4. Proposals from the TWG and the SWG will go to the Formula One Commission consisting of six representatives from the teams, five representatives from the race promoters and one representative each from the Commercial Rights Holder and the FIA. At least two race promoters must be from Europe and at least two from outside Europe. Decisions of the Commission will be by simple majority. The FIA will have a casting vote in the event of equality.
5. The Formula One Commission may accept or refuse a proposal of the TWG or the SWG, but not amend it. A proposal which is refused may be sent back to the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
6. Proposals accepted by the Formula One Commission will be put before the World Motor Sport Council for a final decision. Proposals which are not accepted by the World Motor Sport Council may be sent back to the Formula One Commission and the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
7. Changes required for safety reasons will be considered separately by the FIA, which will take into account any representations made by the TWG or SWG.
8. The TWG and the SWG will be consulted on any proposal for change to the Technical Regulations or Sporting Regulations which did not originate in either Group and their comments, if any, will be made available to the World Motor Sport Council when such proposal is discussed.
no teams, no Formula One Commission (which is stacked against the teams anyway) just straight from Mosley/Purnell to the WMSC which has a very impressive record of unanimous votes in favor of Mosley
and the man is upset at being called a 'dictator'
and what's even worse there are people who think that it's a right way to go
APPENDIX 5
RULE CHANGES
1. Changes to the Technical Regulations will be proposed by the Technical Working Group (TWG) consisting of one senior technical representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the FIA.
2. Changes to the Sporting Regulations will be proposed by the Sporting Working Group (SWG) consisting of one senior representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the FIA.
3. Decisions in the TWG and SWG will be taken by a simple majority vote. The FIA representative will not vote unless the teams’ representatives are equally divided, in which case he will exercise a casting vote.
4. Proposals from the TWG and the SWG will go to the Formula One Commission consisting of six representatives from the teams, five representatives from the race promoters and one representative each from the Commercial Rights Holder and the FIA. At least two race promoters must be from Europe and at least two from outside Europe. Decisions of the Commission will be by simple majority. The FIA will have a casting vote in the event of equality.
5. The Formula One Commission may accept or refuse a proposal of the TWG or the SWG, but not amend it. A proposal which is refused may be sent back to the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
6. Proposals accepted by the Formula One Commission will be put before the World Motor Sport Council for a final decision. Proposals which are not accepted by the World Motor Sport Council may be sent back to the Formula One Commission and the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
7. Changes required for safety reasons will be considered separately by the FIA, which will take into account any representations made by the TWG or SWG.
8. The TWG and the SWG will be consulted on any proposal for change to the Technical Regulations or Sporting Regulations which did not originate in either Group and their comments, if any, will be made available to the World Motor Sport Council when such proposal is discussed.
no teams, no Formula One Commission (which is stacked against the teams anyway) just straight from Mosley/Purnell to the WMSC which has a very impressive record of unanimous votes in favor of Mosley
and the man is upset at being called a 'dictator'
and what's even worse there are people who think that it's a right way to go
I see what you're saying guys, but I don't see what FOTA have done "wrong" here except maybe let their guard down too soon. And even so, they've said something about Max which is fundamentally true, while Max calling them "loonies" is really just a slur. Marcl makes a great point. Max can't deal with the truth, it seems. Even he must realise, deep down, that he's basically a dictator - it's not like he'd ever admit to it.
I agree with the point about F1 having generally been kept on track through the last few seasons - but shouldn't that be the least of his requirements?
And while on one level the stuff with the prostitutes is irrelevant to Max's ability to do his job, and his private life should really stay private, on another, the fact that he engages in activities with prostitutes when he's supposed to be a family man - and the rather disgusting theme of said activities - speak volumes about what kind of person he really is.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2009 03:18AM by EC83.
I agree with the point about F1 having generally been kept on track through the last few seasons - but shouldn't that be the least of his requirements?
And while on one level the stuff with the prostitutes is irrelevant to Max's ability to do his job, and his private life should really stay private, on another, the fact that he engages in activities with prostitutes when he's supposed to be a family man - and the rather disgusting theme of said activities - speak volumes about what kind of person he really is.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2009 03:18AM by EC83.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fact is people will not remember Max for the
> > saftey he bought to motorsport, they will just
> > remember the bad aspects, I do, nad well 99% of
> > the people here will.
>
> That depends on whether you read tabloid
> newspapers or not. I couldn't give a flying duck
> if he likes his prostitutes to be dressed in Nazi
> uniform or not. Did it harm the sport in the short
> or long term? In a roundabout way it might have
> harmed the manufacturers a little in the
> short-term (though when you think about sales, not
> at all), but they're all still here, so not that
> much. And I didn't see any sponsors running for
> cover or quitting... with the normal economic
> exceptions, they're all still around... you could
> even argue that the sport is continuing to prosper
> in the face of a global recession.
>
They stayed because F1 is still the best form of advertising worldwide, and thats a fact. It is and remains a very good playground for marketing. The recession is getting about over-rated atm, how much as RBS just blown on the tennis?? How much of sponsor money is going to be spent during transfer season of the upcoming premier league and other big leagues? £80 million for a the biggest t*at ever, apparently they havent heard of the recession!
> We all hate him, as is the style, but can you or
> anyone else point out exactly what he has done to
> decrease the publicity and general interest in our
> favoured sport? All I can see is common sense and
> a fantastic last 3 or 4 seasons with races and
> championships getting closer and tighter every
> year.
>
How many of your friends, not full-on fans such ourselves, but the occasional watchers which there are many of. how many have come upto and asked, "what the hell is going on? What does this mean, what does this do, how does this work?"
KERS a perfect example, i hve many many poeple ask me what it is, and why it was bought in. Qualifying again the same, people confused about what happens, the weights and everything. It makes F1 into a difficult talking point for the general public. Remember half the people that watch are the ones who know close to little about it, the other half is us. Odd decisions, such as Alonso at Monza in 2006. What was all that about? Again friends came upto me asking why was he peanlized, when I explained they just laughed and asked if I was joking. They ask why the rules are always changing and why cant it stay the same for 2-3 years (now that I cant answer
)? F1 has never lost its glamour to us, fans through and through, but I know many many people who lost interested after two key seasons 1997 then after 2003/2004. F1 does not appeal to the general public as much as it should imo. Im not saying it should dumb down, but things like KERS have made it all abit silly really.
>
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To think the president of the automotive
> association
> > did such things was a worry!
>
> Why? It didn't affect his ability, did it, only
> his reputation? It's like finding kinky porn on
> someone's computer. They're still the same person,
> only with a weird private life. It shouldn't
> automatically make them a freak, who's every
> decisions is a @#$%&-up one.
Gav, the Nazi scene was what did it. Need we bring up the Adolf called kid thread? I was a huge defender of that, but the key difference is here Max represents a worldwide organisation. After seeing that it was very believable that he shared the same political views as his father. For alot of countries governments that was worrying, and did they want him running the FIA. Clearly the reason for the Nazi dress goes deeper than liking the look of it? And if he was a supporter of Nazism then yes it could, and would affect the decisions he made. Its not like finding kiky pron on someones computer. It was much worse, again no need to brign up the thread about Adolf, but the moral effect of seeing the leader of the FIA surrounded by Nazi symbols was appauling.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fact is people will not remember Max for the
> > saftey he bought to motorsport, they will just
> > remember the bad aspects, I do, nad well 99% of
> > the people here will.
>
> That depends on whether you read tabloid
> newspapers or not. I couldn't give a flying duck
> if he likes his prostitutes to be dressed in Nazi
> uniform or not. Did it harm the sport in the short
> or long term? In a roundabout way it might have
> harmed the manufacturers a little in the
> short-term (though when you think about sales, not
> at all), but they're all still here, so not that
> much. And I didn't see any sponsors running for
> cover or quitting... with the normal economic
> exceptions, they're all still around... you could
> even argue that the sport is continuing to prosper
> in the face of a global recession.
>
They stayed because F1 is still the best form of advertising worldwide, and thats a fact. It is and remains a very good playground for marketing. The recession is getting about over-rated atm, how much as RBS just blown on the tennis?? How much of sponsor money is going to be spent during transfer season of the upcoming premier league and other big leagues? £80 million for a the biggest t*at ever, apparently they havent heard of the recession!
> We all hate him, as is the style, but can you or
> anyone else point out exactly what he has done to
> decrease the publicity and general interest in our
> favoured sport? All I can see is common sense and
> a fantastic last 3 or 4 seasons with races and
> championships getting closer and tighter every
> year.
>
How many of your friends, not full-on fans such ourselves, but the occasional watchers which there are many of. how many have come upto and asked, "what the hell is going on? What does this mean, what does this do, how does this work?"
KERS a perfect example, i hve many many poeple ask me what it is, and why it was bought in. Qualifying again the same, people confused about what happens, the weights and everything. It makes F1 into a difficult talking point for the general public. Remember half the people that watch are the ones who know close to little about it, the other half is us. Odd decisions, such as Alonso at Monza in 2006. What was all that about? Again friends came upto me asking why was he peanlized, when I explained they just laughed and asked if I was joking. They ask why the rules are always changing and why cant it stay the same for 2-3 years (now that I cant answer
)? F1 has never lost its glamour to us, fans through and through, but I know many many people who lost interested after two key seasons 1997 then after 2003/2004. F1 does not appeal to the general public as much as it should imo. Im not saying it should dumb down, but things like KERS have made it all abit silly really.>
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To think the president of the automotive
> association
> > did such things was a worry!
>
> Why? It didn't affect his ability, did it, only
> his reputation? It's like finding kinky porn on
> someone's computer. They're still the same person,
> only with a weird private life. It shouldn't
> automatically make them a freak, who's every
> decisions is a @#$%&-up one.
Gav, the Nazi scene was what did it. Need we bring up the Adolf called kid thread? I was a huge defender of that, but the key difference is here Max represents a worldwide organisation. After seeing that it was very believable that he shared the same political views as his father. For alot of countries governments that was worrying, and did they want him running the FIA. Clearly the reason for the Nazi dress goes deeper than liking the look of it? And if he was a supporter of Nazism then yes it could, and would affect the decisions he made. Its not like finding kiky pron on someones computer. It was much worse, again no need to brign up the thread about Adolf, but the moral effect of seeing the leader of the FIA surrounded by Nazi symbols was appauling.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it's been kept on the track, I think
> the improvement has been massive. OK, so the FIA
> let the rules become what they were, but this is
> by far and away the best the sport has been since
> we had the cars narrowed.
True, this season has been a big improvement, which has been masked to an extent by Brawn GP's domination. But in my opinion, all that's serving to do is repair some of the damage done by the FIA's various rulings during the 1990s and earlier this decade(such as the narrowing of the cars in the first place).
> Who cares what sort of a person he really is
> though? He's not a driver, so doesn't have an
> image or fan club to protect. He has little in the
> way of commercial deals. So long as he continued
> to do his job in the same way then that's all that
> should really matter. A couple of months after the
> case no one really cared.
Well, the kind of person he is behind closed doors is bound to impact on the way he goes about doing his job. I agree with Chet here, the Nazi theme was taking things a step too far, especially considering his family history and his position of political power. It might have died down after a couple of months, but during that couple of months the outcry was very real, and rightly so IMO.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it's been kept on the track, I think
> the improvement has been massive. OK, so the FIA
> let the rules become what they were, but this is
> by far and away the best the sport has been since
> we had the cars narrowed.
True, this season has been a big improvement, which has been masked to an extent by Brawn GP's domination. But in my opinion, all that's serving to do is repair some of the damage done by the FIA's various rulings during the 1990s and earlier this decade(such as the narrowing of the cars in the first place).
> Who cares what sort of a person he really is
> though? He's not a driver, so doesn't have an
> image or fan club to protect. He has little in the
> way of commercial deals. So long as he continued
> to do his job in the same way then that's all that
> should really matter. A couple of months after the
> case no one really cared.
Well, the kind of person he is behind closed doors is bound to impact on the way he goes about doing his job. I agree with Chet here, the Nazi theme was taking things a step too far, especially considering his family history and his position of political power. It might have died down after a couple of months, but during that couple of months the outcry was very real, and rightly so IMO.
and here i was thinking that there are currently bigger issues facing F1 than how a near septuagenarian gets his knob up
or did i just wake up in 2008?
or did i just wake up in 2008?
Guimengo schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't recall anyone dying in F1 during
> Ballestre's time as FIA president, doesn't mean he
> was appropriate for the job.
Elio de Angelis during a test in 1986 at Paul Ricard, reason was a lack of marshalls which could have helped him, otherwise he most likely would have survived.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't recall anyone dying in F1 during
> Ballestre's time as FIA president, doesn't mean he
> was appropriate for the job.
Elio de Angelis during a test in 1986 at Paul Ricard, reason was a lack of marshalls which could have helped him, otherwise he most likely would have survived.
gav schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gav, the Nazi scene was what did it. Need we
> bring
> > up the Adolf called kid thread? I was a huge
> > defender of that, but the key difference is
> here
> > Max represents a worldwide organisation. After
> > seeing that it was very believable that he
> shared
> > the same political views as his father. For
> alot
> > of countries governments that was worrying, and
> > did they want him running the FIA. Clearly the
> > reason for the Nazi dress goes deeper than
> liking
> > the look of it? And if he was a supporter of
> > Nazism then yes it could, and would affect the
> > decisions he made. Its not like finding kiky
> pron
> > on someones computer. It was much worse, again
> no
> > need to brign up the thread about Adolf, but
> the
> > moral effect of seeing the leader of the FIA
> > surrounded by Nazi symbols was appauling.
>
> Saying as you appear to be going around my point
> rather than addressing it, here it is nice and
> short:
>
> From an auto and/or sport perspective, who did it
> hurt?
@ Chet, I seem to remember that News of the World more or less admitted the Nazi part was made up for a better story.
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gav, the Nazi scene was what did it. Need we
> bring
> > up the Adolf called kid thread? I was a huge
> > defender of that, but the key difference is
> here
> > Max represents a worldwide organisation. After
> > seeing that it was very believable that he
> shared
> > the same political views as his father. For
> alot
> > of countries governments that was worrying, and
> > did they want him running the FIA. Clearly the
> > reason for the Nazi dress goes deeper than
> liking
> > the look of it? And if he was a supporter of
> > Nazism then yes it could, and would affect the
> > decisions he made. Its not like finding kiky
> pron
> > on someones computer. It was much worse, again
> no
> > need to brign up the thread about Adolf, but
> the
> > moral effect of seeing the leader of the FIA
> > surrounded by Nazi symbols was appauling.
>
> Saying as you appear to be going around my point
> rather than addressing it, here it is nice and
> short:
>
> From an auto and/or sport perspective, who did it
> hurt?
@ Chet, I seem to remember that News of the World more or less admitted the Nazi part was made up for a better story.
It upset people enough not to invite him to the race meetings! Alot of people where very insulted by the whole situation. And though he was invited back dont just assume it was simply because they 'forgave' him. IMO it had alot to do with him being able to run the sport. Without him at race-meetings it would have been very difficult.
If you remember Mercedes and a few other manufactures who made aero-engines during the war who are now currently involved were forced to make statments so that Max's antics did not effect them in any way.
Its my opinion that he should have gone after that. What has he done since that should make us glad he stayed? And dont bring up the budget cap bs. FOTA always had cost saving proposals, they have been impletmenting various measures to cut costs anyway...
On several occasions he has bought the sport into conflict such as this the near-split.
And of course his private life matters. He is the president of the FIA. Its not just motorsport, its alot of things automotive, he is a figure head.
Remember how pissed somepeople got about Kimi getting dr*nk?
Its a fact that people in such posistions are always under watch, and yes their private lives unfortunatly do reflect their real-lives whether they like it or not it will always be a factor.
if the Nazi thing was made up, its still caused a massive uproar, like I said before the moral implications were pretty big! Made up or not the damage was done!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
If you remember Mercedes and a few other manufactures who made aero-engines during the war who are now currently involved were forced to make statments so that Max's antics did not effect them in any way.
Its my opinion that he should have gone after that. What has he done since that should make us glad he stayed? And dont bring up the budget cap bs. FOTA always had cost saving proposals, they have been impletmenting various measures to cut costs anyway...
On several occasions he has bought the sport into conflict such as this the near-split.
And of course his private life matters. He is the president of the FIA. Its not just motorsport, its alot of things automotive, he is a figure head.
Remember how pissed somepeople got about Kimi getting dr*nk?
Its a fact that people in such posistions are always under watch, and yes their private lives unfortunatly do reflect their real-lives whether they like it or not it will always be a factor.
if the Nazi thing was made up, its still caused a massive uproar, like I said before the moral implications were pretty big! Made up or not the damage was done!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
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