Bourdais a Jenson Button?

Seb was awesome at Le mans, and always has when he's raced there!! At Sebring he was impressive too and he dominated Champcar albiet against poor competition bar Will Power, Wilson, AJ and on occasion Tracy.

So why so slow now?

First half of the rookie year he was on Vettels pace, then slowly the car tended towards Vettel. This year is being soundly outpaced by a driver I thought would be nowhere!!

We can see similar things with Jenson imo. A car that doesnt suit him and Jenson will be as effective as Alex Yoong!! Anyone reckon get Seb a good car that suits him and he will be capable of winning? I do, and its a shame he probably wont get that this year and most likley his F1 career will be over. Again a shame because I said, and many others that on slicks he would be awesome!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I'm still wondering if he'll get a seat in USF1 next year since he'd be well known Stateside. Could be a longshot, but at least he could offer some experience in F1, though not much.

I guess the fact that the car's pace and its quirks are so much more important than driver skill in F1 really affects a lot of drivers, Bourdais seems to be one of them. I thought Bourdais was gonna be awesome at the start of last year, but he looks on borrowed time now.

Difference is though those car problems and quirks are thing which dont effect a driver such as Alonso... But clearly do Jenson and Bourdais.

Jenson is doing as good as possible. I think it's fair to say that not even Alonso would be performing better in the car?

BUT the same way that he has been nothing less than perfect this season, in a bad car like last year he made lots of mistakes. I think the same applies to Bourdais.

Ill use Alonso again, he has always, always managed to drive around car problems. I dont know whats more important, being quick when you have the chance and get a good car, or being quick when the car is not quite there but your still on show (whilst still being quick in a good car). I strongly believe Bourdais would be mindblowingly quick if he had the car. Not just quick though, but almost dominant. If I were to push for an answer I would say it's better to be quick when you have the car, and whilst you dont have a good car your performances dont matter. (but thats probably the fanboy in me coming out!). Also to me, Bourdais has always been #2 to the RedBull kids and that has not helped. I do hope he stays and gets a car suited to him because I think if not he will join the long list of wasted talent.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Well when a car is designed to suit a driver, that's when you get their best results. I don't think Jenson's ever been particularly bad, just kind of average in a lot of his years in the wilderness. This year's Brawn obviously suits him and he's reaping the rewards.

Someone like Alonso or Schumacher generally has a team focused around him, so the car will obviously suit them, but it goes deeper than that. I think drivers with a smooth driving style, á la Button, struggle more than ragged drivers who will be able to wrestle something out of a difficult car.

Quirks in cars affect drivers in F1 so much, just the smalles tthing can affect them. Unfortunately in a 2-car team, it often means one driver will lose out and look crap.

chet Wrote:
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> Jenson is doing as good as possible. I think it's
> fair to say that not even Alonso would be
> performing better in the car?

Hang on, one excellent half of a season and Button's been elevated to greatness? It would be difficult to perform better than someone having won 6 out of 7 races, but it doesn't automatically make him one of the most formidable drivers out there.

I don't think the other drivers fear Button, they fear the car. It's clearly the best , and by a long way in races. Button just happens to be one of the most consistent, so now that he's out in front, it makes him seem dominant.

Does that make Rosberg and Trulli the equal of Alonso this season, seeing as they're destroying their teammate too? Button wouldn't have it so easy if Rubens hadn't had such a poor (by comparison) season.

If you were to stick someone like Alonso in alongside him (and Honda tried to make it happen) then I seriously doubt he'd be leading the standings now.

Bourdais had a big chance to win last year at Monza, and the car stalled on the grid. So it's not out of the realms of possibility that with a bad car he can't do as well.

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

I don't think Bourdais would be mind blowingly quick, or dominant if he had a car that suited him, but he would obviously be alot higher, challenging consistently for points.

I'm dissappointed with Bourdais this year, he seems to have thrown in the towel with the realisation that the car doesn't suit him. Although take nothing away from Buemi, who has had a very good start.

USF1 would be a good shout for him next year though.

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I dont he's been elevated to greatness and not that other drivers should fear him, plus I did not even say that, or mean that. I use Button as an example from going almost nowhere to the top.

My point being that he has had seasons where he hasnt done much, and in poor cars.

But whilst he has got a good car he has had made no mistakes and got the maximum points out of 7 races, bar 4 points. I have not said it makes him formiddable, but in the same posistion I do not believe anyone out there would have done better. The orignial point of the post is...

A driver like Alonso could collect points in a Minardi all year... Then he gets his Ferrari but fails to capitalize. Almost perfect example imo. Kimi. When he got his Ferrari alot of people thought he would dominate, Schumacher style! Okay he won in 2007, but was it because he was the best that year? tbh it seemed like neither Kimi, Alonso or Lewis wanted to win the 07 championship!!!! They were trying hard not to!

A driver like Button could come 20th in a Minardi all year... Then he gets his Ferrari but does win, and wins big. Thats what I think could happen with Bourdais IMO, and what has with Button to an extent.

Besides that what is it that makes a driver good? Is it how well he could go in a bad car or how well he could go in a good car?? I'd argue the latter.

Oh, and would Alonso really be leading the championship in that Brawn? Of course we dont know but what do you base your opinions on? Previous seasons? Its what we'd do. But again, something which is futile and pointless. 1 season is not comparable to the next or previous, not in anyway shape of form. This whole driver x beat driver y in 2001, but driver z beat driver x in 2000 but in 1999 driver y beat driver z blahblah is utter crap isnt it?

Hence give Bourdais a good car !

Im not sure where the Button blahblah came from Gav. I only mentioned he was doing as good as what was possible and that I didnt think even Alonso would be bettering it had he had the Brawn and Jenson not. You said it yourself it would be difficult to perform better...

Also, Does that make Rosberg and Trulli the equal of Alonso this season, seeing as they're destroying their teammate too? Button wouldn't have it so easy if Rubens hadn't had such a poor (by comparison) season.

Rosberg wouldn't have it so easy if Kazuki hadn't had such a poor (by comparison) season
Trulli wouldn't have it so easy if Glock hadn't had such a poor (by comparison) season



Jethro, good point, it just seems the pieces havent fallen for Bourdais like they have other drivers. Spa was a good drive too!!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

so is it about Bourdais or Button?

and what if Bourdais is a Fisichella when given that good car?

driving circles around various F1 rejects while being in the best team doesn't entitle him to a good car in F1

proving himself in F1 on the other hand does

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2009 05:31PM by tripleM.

About Bourdais: Look at Le Mans. He has had a winning car, but still wasn't able to win it last years. Call it bad luck, call it incompetence of his fellow drivers in the car, but it's just not it.

He doesn't have that bit of fortune (anymore) which is required in almost every sport to win.

________________________________________

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And some say... he's so offensive he could get you into trouble...
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Felipe Massa, World Champion 15:34:11pm- 15:34:21pm.

MrMan Wrote:
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Buemi, who has had
> a very good start.
>

dont be fooled by one or two good performances, he has made many outrageous mistakes as well.

tripleM Wrote:
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> so is it about Bourdais or Button?
>
> and what if Bourdais is a Fisichella when given
> that good car?
>
> driving circles around various F1 rejects while
> being in the best team doesn't entitle him to a
> good car in F1
>
> proving himself in F1 on the other hand does


Carried away, sorry. I mean Bourdais.

Using Button as an example. We had always seen flashes of speed from him but not many were convinced until this year. Likewise with Bourdais, quick in everything and was a match for Vettel at points in 07 until the car got away from him. We havent seen the best of him yet.

At le mans its difficult to look at the results and compare it with an individual driver. He was one of the quicker Pug drivers imo. At Sebring he was probably the quickest! But many factors are introduced into an endurance race making it difficult to conclude who performed better and who did not.

There is of course the argument that all drivers would be better in a good car, but of course Giancarlo is good case against that. Then theres Kazuki for example, he hasnt shown improvment since his debut. His debut was fantastic but since nothing else has been impressive. Bourdais is different, he clearly has the speed to win.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> Im not sure where the Button blahblah came from
> Gav. I only mentioned he was doing as good as what
> was possible and that I didnt think even Alonso
> would be bettering it had he had the Brawn and
> Jenson not. You said it yourself it would be
> difficult to perform better...

See, you were doing well up until that point, but then you made it personal. I stated my opinion, and you stated yours.

I really should have expected you to be like this this season. You're worse than the Kimi fanboys.

I said it would be difficult to perform better because of his results, not because of his performance.

But his performances have been faultless, difficult to compare, but the 07 and 08 seasons we full of the best two teams and 4 drivers making errors. Maybe because they had more pressure, but mistakes you wouldnt expect at that level. Lewis has the benifit of being a rookie in 07. Mistakes were expected - he just chose bad times to make them ! Perhaps Ferrari more so were making mistakes which were just downright silly. The fact that Kubica was winning the championship in a lesser car goes to show just how bad all concerned were doing! Im just annoyed the same Ferrari or Ferrari drivers werent around in 2004!!

I could be alot worse though :p. I was going to dig up the many many posts of Jenson bashing. Then I thought ill wait for the ones which say he'll never be champion. Ill wait till he is actually is champion, if he is lol!! !

As bad as Kimi fans is a bit harsh :p. Ive not yet resorted to "But Button had the fastest lap almost every race, so therefore he was the best driver of the season" ! Im on par with the Hamilton fans i think :p

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

His performances have been faultless, but then he's had no reason to make mistakes. Every race he's had the fastest race car, by a long way, with the exception of China (where RBR looked faster regardless of the weather). His only real pressure-point has been Rubens, who's been playing catchup since his start in Melbourne and he's been putting himself under massive pressure from then on, making the mistakes that have let Button get himself into the strong position in the team.

Going back to your mention of Alonso, both of his titles were won when having to drive out of his skin against one of the best drivers of all time. Stick him in a dominant car and I fully expect him to destroy anyone with the exception of Hamilton and Kimi (on his day) where he's merely their equal.

chet Wrote:
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> I could be alot worse though :p. I was going to
> dig up the many many posts of Jenson bashing. Then
> I thought ill wait for the ones which say he'll
> never be champion. Ill wait till he is actually is
> champion, if he is lol!! !

You can look all you want, but won't find any bashing from me. Despite you thinking I'm having a go at him, I've always liked him (never been a fan as such, but he's on my list of drivers I like). Unlike you though, my penis is here with me, rather than been donated as an offering.

Gav, regarding your last sentence.... Chet's' on Button.

Never!
Bourdais is not that good, Jenson's always been an excelent driver, and always been quicker than his teammates, of course except for his first year, but that's because he was a 20 year old rookie with a top of the line teammate "at the time at least" and with Fisico everybody knows that he was just living the playboy life at that time with the parties and stuff but once he got serious he was right there with Fisi, and last year i'll say he was retty much matched with Rubens, and he's not that easy of a teammate to beat

does anybody even remmeber how Jenson got his seat?
and when he has the opportunity he's right there, in 2004 he was always right behind the (out-of-the-league) Ferraris, he's a proven winner and again, he's usually ahead of his teammates

Bourdais on the other hand, well, as we know, being dominant in America does not means you'll be a good driver in F1, it's a total different world, and last year he got beaten by a kid and someone who hasn't win as much as him with his 4 titles in champ car and all those record victories, he usually complains and he's getting outpaced hardcore again by another Rookie
if you ask me, Bourdais might not see the end of the season

Slash Wrote:
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> Bourdais is not that good, Jenson's always been an
> excelent driver, and always been quicker than his
> teammates, of course except for his first year

And his 2nd year and his 3rd year and his 9th year and probably some others in between. Other than that he's destroyed them :P

well, he did perform better than Trulli, Villeneuve, Sato and probably will retire Rubens at the end of this season

chet Wrote:
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> Ive not yet
> resorted to "But Button had the fastest lap almost
> every race, so therefore he was the best driver of
> the season" ! Im on par with the Hamilton fans i
> think :p

Good job too - he's only had two fastest laps, hasn't he?

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