Bourdais a Jenson Button?

Slash Wrote:
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> well, he did perform better than Trulli,
> Villeneuve, Sato and probably will retire Rubens
> at the end of this season

Trulli had the beating of him and Rubens was showing him the way last season.

ok, then Button sucks and Bourdais is underrated

gav Wrote:
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> You can look all you want, but won't find any
> bashing from me. Despite you thinking I'm having a
> go at him, I've always liked him (never been a fan
> as such, but he's on my list of drivers I like).
> Unlike you though, my penis is here with me,
> rather than been donated as an offering.

I never said from you, I mean just in general. And I am not at all thinking your having a go at him, and I never made it personal :s and if I did, I never meant it to. I was just confused about where all the "Button elevated to greatness" stuff came from because I never said or implied that... This was never intended to be just about Buttons performances, he was simply used as a gauge. My point about Alonso probably not even being able to better him so far was valid was it not? Whether Alonso alongside him would be doing better or not was not meant to be part of the orignal discussion.

In 2002 he often out-raced Jarno.

But its very similar to 2004 at Renault.

Jarno and Alonso were matched, with Jarno even outscoring Alonso for abit. Out qualified and out raced. Then came France!!

Since, Jarno's performances dropped, massivley.

The same way Jarno knew he was out for 2005, Jenson knew he was out for 2003! Both drivers dropped their heads and understandably the performances went to sh*t.

Had Flavio been a good team-boss and managed his driver(!!) better in 2004 then they really could have challenged BAR for 2nd in the CC.

As for Rubens, well he soundly beat JB on all levels in 08, but then in 06 and 07 at least in race-trim JB on most occasions trounced RB. Again doesnt this just implies we cant compare drivers season to season.

Thanks Gui btw :p

I still think we havent seen the best from Bourdais, not even close!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Button was absolutely outclassed by Fisi in 01 and made to look like the kid rookie he was at the time, I don't think he even ever finished higher in a race that Fisi over the course of the season, while Fisi was immense in Belgium, Button never shined once

His career could of been over then if he wasn't signed on a 2 year contract, Flav wanted him replaced by Fernando soon as really

His performances against Trulli were not that great either, he beat Trulli in 2002 on points, but Jarno had poorer reliability over the course of the season, and who was it that was shipped off to BAR at the end of the year

He outperformed Villeneuve though, but to me JV was a different man after 2001, he never seemed the same after the early BAR years

Jenson was impressive in 2004 but in what was a very good car, Mclaren, Williams and Renault all struggled at the start of the season, Renault fired Trulli who had actually been the better driver that year, Williams lost Ralf and had to make do with Pizzonia while Mclaren had DC who clearly was no longer wanted there with Monty coming in for 05

Jenson is a good driver but he cant be compared to the likes of Alonso or Schumi, It's almost a pity he's going to go in the records this year, when some would consider him to of not deserved it, to be amongst the likes of Ascari and Clark

No offence to you Chet as you are a Jenson fan but to me this is just like Damon's championship in 1996, best car by miles and not a whole lot of solid opposition coming your way

If Rubens can get some momentum going or the Red Bulls sort out there strategy then this is going to be a cake walk for JB, I hope its not for his sake as I like the guy and don't want him to be bashed for winning a run away title

EDIT: Forgot about Bourdias

Hope the guy gets a chance in the future with F1, he was unlucky with Arrows and Prost both going down when he was testing with them, but at least he is a good all round natural talent, I'm sure he will be a better than average LMS driver and perhaps he could always attempt a return to America

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 01:58AM by Ferrari2007.

no discredit to any champion, winning IS winning. the driver who does the most of what he has above the rest of the field IS the winner. that is what winning is.

in my view, if you want to take the matter of a leading car into hands and say the car is the winner, then to me, schumacher is only what, say, a double world champion AT BEST, if at all.

winning involves both the car AND driver combination. there are times when drivers skill overtakes the power of a car (ie, senna and second rate ford power in 1993), or when the car is just better and gifts it to you (williams 1990s). sometimes it is a healthy balance of both.

whatever the case, formula one has NEVER been equal. it isnt A1GP.

every winning driver or champion has been powered by a car and driven on his own skill unique to any fellow competitor. teammates have identical cars, but even they perform differently based on the drivers' skill.

no driver has just won a race based on the car alone. the car doesn't drive itself. it is the drivers input that makes the car work, albeit a little better with a good car.

jenson fully deserves his victories, and all those that may happen hereon.

it may seem sour that he has a very good car, but so too did schumacher, and they called him a legend. i call it lucky, a good car, and a spot of skill.

that goes for both of them.

that is what formula one is.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 02:46AM by danm.

Circumstances.

It is always about them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 03:48AM by Rodrigo007.

All I can think is Frentzen. Rubbish at Williams, when he had probably had one of the most dominant cars of all time. Jordan a few years later he was awesome and destroyed an ex-champ who had been Williams second most successful driver. It's not just cars, but teams, circumstances, team-mates, everything's a factor with some drivers. It's the same in all sports, you have a few greats who are great across the board and then you've got some who need things to be right, but when they are right, they can be just as good as the best.

Well i still do believe now that fretzen fell into list of "Long lost wasted talents in f1 era".

Ferrari2007 Wrote:
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> Jenson is a good driver but he cant be compared to
> the likes of Alonso or Schumi, It's almost a pity
> he's going to go in the records this year, when
> some would consider him to of not deserved it, to
> be amongst the likes of Ascari and Clark

100% agree. Jenson has been nowhere during the last couple of years and now he is going to beat or match a lot of records, but this is F1, to be in the rigth place in the right moment. We have also to admit that the best Rubens Barrichello was gonee a few years ago, now he is an experienced driver with a sensational car. Jenson is only doing what he does better, drive without errors (Rubens cannot say the same) with a car that is more than 0.5 faster than any other. This puts him on top easily.

Alonso never had a dominant car (had very good one, but not dominant), if not, he would also match a few records easily.

But this has always been like that, driver that shine when they have very good cars ( Button, Vettel - with a 'bad' Toro Rosso he was as fast as Bourdais -, Hamilton - he is nowhere this year - and many others) and those drivers that are capable of getting an extra of the car (Alonso, Webber - probably- and not many more).

Alonso's Renault was fairly dominant in 2005 in the first half, until the amazing McLaren managed to start finishing races.

Drivers just peak at different ages, happens in all sports.

I don't want to say he does not deserve it because if over the season he out performs the other guys, that is how it works your the champion

It's just when you look at the records he is likely to set this year, the names he will be among in the history books, he doesn't look as deserving as these great drivers, before this year he had won once and been on pole twice

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

Ali, in all fairness the Brawn is noway near 0.5second quicker.

A quick calculation I did showed it to be about 0.3 in front at Turkey. With about 8laps to go Jenson was only 20seconds in front. Knowing the gap would not increase a great deal here or there, I simply rounded it all up, 60(laps) / 20 (seconds). Turkey has been the only race this year that the Brawn, well at least Jensons car has shown to be out of reach of the others. Maybe Aus the exception, and Malaysia possibly, though it rained so again we wont know. It is a total misconception that the Brawn is a dominant car. It is just fact that the other teams have not made the most of their opportunities. In some cases RedBull and Toyota have just handed over the win with no fight! Jenson is not running away with it the way people think. RedBull/Toyota have simply been running away from the win!!!!!

Ferrari...

In what way are these other drivers more deserving?

How was Fangio more deserving of the car/team he got?
Senna?
Prost?
Mansell?
Hill?
Schumacher?

Truth be told not one of them is more deserving than even Piquet Jnr!

It is imposslbe to say one driver deserves a win/a title more than the other! A win/a world championship is of equal value no matter how it was achieved, when and by who.

Ill admit to being wrong here, I have said Jenson deserves this. But does he really? Does anyone?

It is what it is. Deserving something or not doesnt even factor into it.

Good post dan btw :p

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I think the Brawn is a dominant car in Button's hands. It's all about the combinantion. We've had this before, Schumacher at certain years at Ferrari and Benetton, various Williamses in the 90s. The car suits Button's style. He can do lap after lap without mistake, and he can extract the maximum when he needs to. That's a sign of a car and driver in harmony. He's also fully at ease with his surroundings and not under untoward pressure. All of which add up to him being the champion-elect driver this year.

As for deserving the championship, he'll deserve it when he has the most points at the end of the year. History will be kinder to him than we are now when his name is among the champions in a few years. I was looking at some old papers from 1996 online recently, and I was amazed to see that most of the reports from then were already completely dismissive of Hill winning the WC and looking forward to a battle between first-rate drivers such as Schumacher, Villeneuve, Frentzen and Alesi in 1997.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 06:29PM by The Lopper.

'Truth be told not one of them is more deserving than even Piquet Jnr!'

Maybe you should at least read up on their careers instead of making blanket statements?

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Bourdais was stellar in his first race and has goen gradually downhill since then. It's a shame, I like the guy but he's really been crap this year.

And Gav, I actually reckon Button is a severely underrated driver. True, Barrichello hasn't been up to much this year, but Jenson has been driving as well as anybody out there IMHO. He has really raised his game this year and right now I reckon he'd give any driver in that other Brawn a run for their money.

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tripleM Wrote:
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> 'Truth be told not one of them is more deserving
> than even Piquet Jnr!'
>
> Maybe you should at least read up on their careers
> instead of making blanket statements?


I mean if Piquet were to win WDC.

Why would it be less or more deserving than any other from any other driver? Like I said, a win is a win, a championship is a championship. Not one is more or less derving than any other.

What defines a championship to be more so or less so deserving?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Regarding Bourdais, I don't think he's in the same league as JB. Clearly he has some ability in F1, and he's shown flashes of promise(Melbourne 2008, Spa 2008, Monza 2008 quali) but I don't think he's good enough or consistent enough to become a long-term F1 fixture. It's not helped him, of course, that Vettel was his teammate in 2008 and destroyed him on paper with some awesome performances.

I'll be surprised if Bourdais is in F1 next year TBH. Nothing against him, but I think there are a lot of guys coming up who are much younger, and probably better drivers too.

Jenson is a tough driver to describe, considering the huge range of differing performances we've seen from him in different cars, but it seems clear to me he responds massively to having a car which is (a) competitive and (b) very driveable and easy to set up. A telling season for me regarding Jenson's performance teamwise is 2002. Early in the season when the car was quite competitive, he regularly outperformed Trulli. Later in the season, when the car dropped off the pace and generally became more awkward, Trulli took over and began beating him consistently. This trend has been there throughout JB's career.

Disagree Chet regarding Alonso. If/when he gets his Ferrari, I don't see him failing to capitalise on it, just like he didn't fail to capitalise when he got his Renault(first time round).

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Locke Cole Wrote:
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> And Gav, I actually reckon Button is a severely
> underrated driver. True, Barrichello hasn't been
> up to much this year, but Jenson has been driving
> as well as anybody out there IMHO. He has really
> raised his game this year and right now I reckon
> he'd give any driver in that other Brawn a run for
> their money.

I think what I've been trying to say is that given how he operates (ie consistency and generally without mistakes), he'd struggle to have failed this year.

I still maintain with a stronger teammate he'd have cracked a bit more, making the odd error, a bit like Rubens started doing when he fell behind (and is still snowballing). Stick a Rosberg in that car and Button would still probably be in the lead, but not by nearly as much. Stick an Alonso or Lewis in the car and I just can't see how he'd beat them. Just personal opinion though. As Ferrari2007 said, he deserves this title as he has taken his opportunity, and done it very well at that - I do like Button - I just don't think he's much better than a Damon Hill... stronger than most, but not up with the best, even now.

The Brawn is easily the fastest car. In qualifying both drivers are fighting for the front row, with one normally getting it, usually with more fuel than those around them. In the race they're in a completely different league, some 0.2-0.4 per lap faster, so such an extent they can trundle around for half the race protecting the car, making their dominance seem a little less prominent than it could be.

I'm still staggered they've managed to build such an efficient car with so little testing and data analysis before the season. I could understand quick, but I'd have thought it would have been 1-lap performance that would have been the strength.

Chetsonian,

"Truth be told not one of them is more deserving than even Piquet Jnr!"

To me, if a guy comes in and in his first time with an F1 car he beats the circuit record and also beats the F1 drivers' times by 1s, he deserves a great car. Yes you can guess who I am talking about .


Edit: Also Jim Clark lost a few more titles thanks to his car failing on him. Sure, nice that other guys were consistent to finish and blablabla but outright driving, no one matched Clark in the 60s.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 08:46PM by Guimengo.

Mazzacane right Gui?

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions