FORMULA 1™ ING MAGYAR NAGYDIJ GRAND PRIX 2008

n00binio Wrote:
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> Vader schrieb:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am German myself never cheered for
> > "contrymen/women in sports". Why cheer for a
> bunch
> > of millionaires?
>
> i don´t know but lot´s of people do. remember
> soccer fans back in 06 and this year
>
>
> @morbid: i get your point, you´re right
> though there are some differences in the
> interpretation of patriotism if you compare the
> english wikipedia and the german one (i admit not
> the best sources to quote)
>
> e.g. the english version says "Patriotism covers
> such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and
> culture, the desire to preserve its character and
> the basis of the culture, and identification with
> other members of the nation."
>
> i´d say the last point covers a bit my point of
> view

That it is on Wikipedia does not make it correct. You would do well to read up on some enlightenment philosophers and some 18th century history... primarily things like the American declaration of independence 1776, the french revolutions and the little book that Napoleon had in his pocket called "code de civil"... what do you think all those colonists fought the red-coats for, and ditto the french soldiers that fought and died for in Italy, Egypt, Central Europe and in Russia... some a short half-way bald fat man?

Why do you think the french GAVE the americans the statue of liberty? Do you have any idea what a massive project that was to complete? Why do you think it bears the following inscription:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

The American revolution and the Napoleonic wars were battles between patriotism and old feudal monarchy based power structures, reinterpreted in Nationalism. As we all know, in the Americas patriotism won, and in Europe it lost. That is why it was the americans that came to Europe to fight, not the other way around.

Sadly, the americans have now total dropped the ball, and now don't remember from where they came, and what they fought for all those years.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

flat tyre Wrote:
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> One thing that confused me though... at Glock's
> first pit stop, he stayed for a long time (about
> 13 seconds, I think) and the prediction showed on
> screen was that he had fuel for 48 laps, when 50
> remained. I assumed that he was fuelled to the
> end, but was going to conserve fuel. I was dead
> chuffed when I saw him right behind Massa nearer
> the end, thinking that he would be challenging for
> the win as he was fuelled to the end. But later on
> he came in for a second stop. Do you think he had
> a problem with the fuel rig aswell?

Glock's first stop was 13.5 seconds, as when they went to connect the fuel-hose the first time, it didn't work. They (very quickly!) brought out a second hose and filled him up.

I was impressed. I thought they'd cost him 4th (2nd as it became), but the reserve hose is clearly there in reserve, and the refueller was on a mission of his own. Look back if you can. It was a bloody good stop considering.

I agree with Dave. I'm not one for having technology pissing all over the sport, but today you'd assume they'd have a system like the start, so a timer is triggered when a car stops and is stopped when it pulls away. It's not exactly rocket science. Still, it's a long way down the list of things which need addressing.

as i said, wikipedia is not the best source to quote from. so i´m aware of the fact that it may not be correct. and i may add that my knowledge about historical and philosophical events is not that bad.
i think you should also take into account that the sources you´re referring to may not do the feelings of today´s people justice. in (most) countries of the western world people take human rights for granted - thanks to patriotic ancestors we have them - and patriotic feelings now appear in different forms. therefore it would make sense to redefine the meaning of patriotic.

and about the american revolution: i wonder if it would have happened if britain set no tax on tea.

Regarding the refuelling: Our commentator said that the current fuel mechanisms are all the exactly same and made by the same manufacturer and that they have been used for the past 14 years now. You'd hope those things are bullit proof by now, but they still aren't. Not (fully) working fuel rigs are still quite common.

Nothing is bullit proof. A device can work 99 times out of 100, and it'll still fail due to an odd circumstance. Sometimes it can go years without a problem, then pure co-incidence means you'll get lots at one time.

as i said, wikipedia is not the best source to quote from. so i´m aware of the fact that it may not be correct.

I recently read an article on the BBC News site which said on a per article basis, Wikipedia had the same amount of errors as the Encyclopaedia Britannica, and that does not include out of date information such as deaths and recent events.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
theRacingLine.net
SportsCarArchives.com

Of course nothing is bullet proof, but you get the point. Failures can happen, but after 14 years, they should be a bit more reliable than what they are now.

It could be that my view is a little disturbed due to all the failures today, but I do have the impression fuel system problems still appear quite regularly...

but it was abit of a coincidence that three fires happened in the race. honda had been looking at their fuel rig afterwards too to see what had gone wrong. james allen was adamant that their might be an inquiry. i mean could there be, its not like they took filters out of their fuel hoses.

do you think that had lh got to the 1st corner first, that he would have walked away with it? What im trying to gauge is was ferrari's pace genuine or was it that lh could not unleash the mclarens speed being behind massa?

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I don't think we get a lot of failures per see, but we do get a few stupid issues, like the hose unwilling to disconnect from the car and so on. The fire thing we saw today was atipical. Probably due to a hotter weather, and the mechanics doing bad work.

rapid_f1 Wrote:
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> do you think that had lh got to the 1st corner
> first, that he would have walked away with it?
> What im trying to gauge is was ferrari's pace
> genuine or was it that lh could not unleash the
> mclarens speed being behind massa?

Ferrari has usually been faster than McLaren in race trim. The only race where this wasn't the norm was Hockenheim. We have to discount the rain races, since the pace becomes more responsability of the driver than the car.

He was so far behind Massa that the pit-stops would have been irrelevant. He was already 5 seconds down before his problem. Save for a Ferrari problem, or some inconvenient traffic before the stops (which were only 2-5 laps away), it would have finished the way it was.

Had Hamilton led through turn 2, then it may have been different in that the fuel may have played into his hands, but Massa would have been within a second of him by the time he stopped. How Ferrari played their hand, and the McLaren response after that would have determined who won.

Ferrari showed that they are still stronger than McLaren when race pace is looked...still Ferrari don't have enough qualifying speed and they have to work on that area.

n00binio Wrote:
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> as i said, wikipedia is not the best source to
> quote from. so i´m aware of the fact that it may
> not be correct. and i may add that my knowledge
> about historical and philosophical events is not
> that bad.

> i think you should also take into account that the
> sources you´re referring to may not do the
> feelings of today´s people justice. in (most)
> countries of the western world people take human
> rights for granted - thanks to patriotic ancestors
> we have them - and patriotic feelings now appear
> in different forms. therefore it would make sense
> to redefine the meaning of patriotic.

What a load of nonsense! People might change what they feel liberalism is too, but that will not change, that it is specific and well defined ideology. In liberalism the core value is the liberty of the individual. If people suddenly feel it is something else, they are just wrong, pure and simple. The only thing that changes in that situation is the level of ignorance that people feel it is justified and acceptable to display.

> and about the american revolution: i wonder if it
> would have happened if britain set no tax on tea.

You can wonder all you want. It is pointless. You will never get an answer. History is about what actually happened, not what would have happened if something else had happened.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
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> Ferrari has usually been faster than McLaren in
> race trim. The only race where this wasn't the
> norm was Hockenheim. We have to discount the rain
> races, since the pace becomes more responsability
> of the driver than the car.

I don't think it's more the responsibility of the driver as such. In rain mechanical grip is everything. Say if you've got a 5% advantage in mechanical grip in dry conditions, then in the wet it becomes a 50% advantage. All of a sudden, aerodynamic downforce is insignificant, and it's all about getting traction out of the corners.

Certain drivers can take advantage of that more than others, but the effect of the driver is much less than I feel a lot give credit for.

A good example is Spain '96. Not many would have put Alesi (a supposed wet weather specialist) down as being more than a minute slower than Schumacher. Schumacher was great, and it's rightly seen as one of the best drives of all time, but was he really 1 minute better than Alesi and Villeneuve?

Morbid schrieb:
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> What a load of nonsense! People might change what
> they feel liberalism is too, but that will not
> change, that it is specific and well defined
> ideology. In liberalism the core value is the
> liberty of the individual. If people suddenly feel
> it is something else, they are just wrong, pure
> and simple. The only thing that changes in that
> situation is the level of ignorance that people
> feel it is justified and acceptable to display.

in line with peter watson i´ll call things like liberalism an idea. and such ideas are invented by mankind. as mankind itself ideas go through a process of evolution. such ideas are not static cause the needs of mankind change. let´s take you´re liberalism example: originally liberty could mean to be able to go whereever you want / that no person owns another one. today we could say liberalism means beeing able to utter your opinion freely or freedom of religion. these two expressions of the same idea are strongly linked but obviously there is a difference between the two. the need of not beeing owned by another person was fulfilled so other needs are in the foreground (hierarchy of needs). this is a flowing process and nobody is saying "from now on liberalism means ...".
it´s the same with patriotism: you´re right of course when you name napoleon etc... they were patriotic. but as i said many countries are now built up on the same values. so that direct clash of two different systems of values is not possible today. the feeling of loving your nation is still there but the original ways of uttering it have vanished. so people search for alternatives and supporting /identifying with countrymen and women in competitions against other countries in times of win and defeat is a means of showing pride for your nation. you don´t hide but stand up and show everybody where your from and that you´re proud of beeing part of that certain nation. therefore it is a expression of patriotic feelings

> You can wonder all you want. It is pointless. You
> will never get an answer. History is about what
> actually happened, not what would have happened if
> something else had happened.

so you want to say what all the historians do is senseless? nobody wants a 100% answer. if you have a deeper understanding of a process you can at least say what is possible and what is not possible. the only thing i wanted to show with this question is that it is difficult to say in what way events that are more linked to money than patriotic feelings influence events like a revolution.
there´s a saying that puts the point out, i hope i translated it correctly: why strive for a noble aim if a lower motif is perfectly obvious.

Well not alot to say, other than i've never been happier watching a formula one race. Well done Hekki to finish first, first you must finish.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe_Satriani Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ferrari has usually been faster than McLaren in
> > race trim. The only race where this wasn't the
> > norm was Hockenheim. We have to discount the
> rain
> > races, since the pace becomes more
> responsability
> > of the driver than the car.
>
> I don't think it's more the responsibility of the
> driver as such. In rain mechanical grip is
> everything. Say if you've got a 5% advantage in
> mechanical grip in dry conditions, then in the wet
> it becomes a 50% advantage. All of a sudden,
> aerodynamic downforce is insignificant, and it's
> all about getting traction out of the corners.
>
> Certain drivers can take advantage of that more
> than others, but the effect of the driver is much
> less than I feel a lot give credit for.
>
> A good example is Spain '96. Not many would have
> put Alesi (a supposed wet weather specialist) down
> as being more than a minute slower than
> Schumacher. Schumacher was great, and it's rightly
> seen as one of the best drives of all time, but
> was he really 1 minute better than Alesi and
> Villeneuve?

Well, there's that too. But we've seen how certain drivers make a lot more of the rain situation then others. Hamilton and Sutil are good examples of it.

Rodrigo007 Wrote:
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> Wow today we saw a fine race for Hungaroring ^^
>
>
> - In the end if we remember all the times Heikki
> got unlucky so finally some compensation! he did
> good: no errors, car in home etc and thats it!
> congratulations for him, and hope this came to
> give him a boost for the rest of the season!
>
> - Glock did great, even with a pits problem
> managed to finish 2nd maybe this shows that Toyota
> is finally getting worth of all the budget they
> spend in the car , would be good if they get a
> better form for next year maybe getting able to
> fight the tops, who knows?
>
> - Kimi / Hamilton believe these guys did the best
> in the worst position good for Kimi who got near
> the lead and overtook Massa in wdc standings, also
> nice to see Lewis' recover after puncture!
>
> - Piquet showed some improvement again, I bet the
> team is a bit more confident on him now ,that
> sounds good for Nelson as then they can think
> better about renew his contract for next year, the
> possibilities of it for sure are increasing after
> these few last races
>
>
>
> Anyways there's no way to pass without commenting
> on this..
>
> I believe in general there's two kinds of
> winners: the ones with great natural talent, and
> the ones who need to work harder than the normal
> to get some space, in motorsports usually when u
> have a person with both characteristics then u
> have a Senna , Schumacher...
> what makes me feel really sorry about Felipe is
> not that he lost this chance, but is that he works
> alot hard to keep in pair with guys like Kimi,
> Lewis... ppl that have an impressive natural
> talent that it's quite commotive to read some
> reports that he reached strongly crying at the
> boxes. Thinking about it a few then we understand
> this kind of presentation in the race today means
> something more for him, taking Kimi for example,
> we all know his capacity, we all know his talent,
> he can do that easier than the way Massa needs to
> go and thoerically more recurrent and in the end
> without needing to prove himself to noone, so that
> being said it's a bit dificult to imagine how much
> not simply frustrated but sad can Felipe be atm,
> again just can say i'm really sorry for him.
> Anyways , in the end not a mathematical victory
> but a morale win, actually never seen so many ppl
> giving support and it's a good signal, he earned
> some respect and maybe that will help in the
> future mainly for the rest of the season. Btw, bit
> by bit with some moves here and there the guy is
> writting his name in f1 history.


i remember when Massa joined Sauber that Peter Sauber said this guys was really fast, but needed to work better on the speed on slow corners..

so i do think he's got that natural talent you are talking about

today's race reminded me of Shumacher's 2003 at Monza, not that i'm comparing them both, obviously i rate Schumachers a lot more, but it was pretty muhc the same, beating the competition in what it seems to be bit of a lower equipment (obviously not that far behind) but it was great, and the way he took the lead was also great, strenght and determination, anyother driver would've let lewis take the line with no trouble, but he never hesitated to take the lead, he was going for it!

anyways like you said, this would've been a morale victory, but in a way it was, from now on i just hope Ferrari gives their drivers a better equipment to fight for the remaining races... today they proved that the competition is beatable, they just need to gt it right

In all honest it doesnt look like its the equipment! The engine failure was probably just random.. Its about time Ferrari had an engine problem, though its quite funny as rare as they are they often come at the worst times or best depending on who you like

Today Massa had the measure of Lewis and more there was nothing wrong with the cars pace at least for him. It was just Kimi whos really lacked pace today and these last few races. In Germany Massa had an excuse of a braking problem. What was Kimis excuse? Today it looked like Kimi hardly tried to pass Alonso, I know its difficult to follow and overtake but you'd still expect the world champion to try be a little closer to Alonso and to try harder for a pass.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Erm, you do know this was Hungary right? I know this will look like I'm defending Kimi on this, but Hungary is extremely hard to pass, even for a car that is a second faster than the one in front. Last year Massa was stuck mucking about in 12th place due to poor strategy and the fact that he couldn't pass the cars in front of him. I did not watch the entire race, but the few passes I saw were down to some form of driver error from the driver at the front.

So yeah, he was stuck behind Alonso, but I very much doubt he could've passed him earlier, unless Ferrari had opted for a shorter middle stint to have a shorter pitstop. Considering that Kimi did the fastest lap (again) he had excellent pace in the race. As he said in the post race conferece, he needs to sort qualifying so that he can fight more at the front instead of 6th place. Considering his qualifying position and his start, I'd say Kimi did the best he could.